Spore: A Failure?

Yeah, that's Lamarckian, if I've understood it correctly. Like, if a giraffe reaches and reaches for apples in high trees, over time it will evolve a longer neck?

Problem is, that's not how evolution works, either. You get the chance mutations, and the useful ones survive. That could technically be represented by your suggestion (because good mutations for frequently-performed activities would lead to higher survival rates) but it would be... guess what? Simplistic. Dumbed-down. :lol:
 
I was talking about games in general...

This.. Generation "u" kids are the targeted market for almost all games. Children who, let me quote a siqnature I saw somewhere, "type out their damn words" have a higher probability of understanding and enjoying a more complex game.

Everything gets dumbed down for the kids, we say. Thats because kids today are alot more dumber - because the system lets them be dumb. The system is bad. It will ruin us. In other words, Spore is a herald of Armageddon, we are all doomed. :p

That's right. You all better enjoy that space stage while you can, because that's as close as this species is ever gonna get.:cringe:
 
Evolution should have featured (more). IMO, there should be very few creatures plugged straight into the game (at least, not on your home planet). Things should start off simple like your cell/ceature, and evolve according to certain logical rules (certain responses to what is causing them most injury/deaths). The user content can act as 'targets' which creatures evolve towards, but the end result is something cross-bred with the conditions on your own planet, which can then be uploaded and shared again... Yes, the game should generate its own creatures! With much branching out in different directions, as well as mass extinctions...

I'd tolerate less freedom in designing creatures, in order to see this happen - a world that actually evolves as you play. Why not have the land surface gradually shifting, rising and falling too? The technology already exists in the game engine, as seen in the terraforming tools in the space age. All basic 'Parts' should be available, and you can buy more advanced parts in your next generation, instead of randomly searching for mystical skeletons. And needless to say, species should have populations that rise and fall also, sometimes swarming in huge numbers, and be able to migrate across the planet. And when you lay an egg, it should just be for increasing population. Only if you have gained enough new DNA and if enough time has passed should you be able to click on your egg to evolve the next generation. Maybe you’d be searching for a mate with some slight mutation you’d want for your offspring…

So many what ifs!!!

Anyways, my actual main gripe is with the three stages after the creature phase. Today I had an epic session of installing and playing some old games - Rise of Nations, Ground Control II, Startopia, Warlords III and Galactic Civilizations #1. Startopia and GC2 in particular had really nice 3D graphics without being too demanding on hardware (a breeze on my new PC). They really put the civ stage in Spore to shame in terms of detail on screen. And in terms of gameplay, I'm also thinking back to games that were out 10 years ago – like Settlers III and Populous: The Beginning (one of my favourite games of all, with people living on 3D spherical planets, just a shame it doesn't seem to work on any OS above Windows '98 :cry:). And nearly 20 years ago (when I was very little), those early Amiga strategy games like the Populous I, Warmonger and Mega Lo Mania, which had simplicity (out of necessity) but depth and replayability too.

From creatures to space, there's just so much out there they could have copied from - game concepts that have already been thought out and tested for decades - while still kept things relatively simple. Although I do enjoy Spore, it's really a shame to think what could have been. As other's have said, its bitter-sweet.

/rant
 
I am just guessing but EA probably saw what Nintendo was doing with their Wii. Which was targeting non-gamers and casual gamers because it is a bigger audience. Now the thing that really kicked me and some others in the *alls is that we thought after 2-3 years of waiting it was going to get more complex and "better" but it was dumbed down (I don't really care about the "cute" graphics as long as it had blood for added realism). So I don't think it was a failure but it was overhyped by hardcore gamers.
 
Well, I think once they got players emotionally involved with the creature phase, they could have pushed the boundaries a bit in the later game :)
 
Your creature's body has basically no importance in the game. Pretty much end of the story there.

I don't understand. Do you mean that the actual shape of the body itself (i.e. the spine part, not the legs/arms) has no effect? I'd imagine that's so the online Sporepedia doesn't end up with millions of the same creature, but you have a point. Does being tall allow herbivores to reach fruit higher up?

Evolution should have featured (more). IMO, there should be very few creatures plugged straight into the game (at least, not on your home planet). Things should start off simple like your cell/ceature, and evolve according to certain logical rules (certain responses to what is causing them most injury/deaths). The user content can act as 'targets' which creatures evolve towards, but the end result is something cross-bred with the conditions on your own planet, which can then be uploaded and shared again... Yes, the game should generate its own creatures! With much branching out in different directions, as well as mass extinctions...

That would be more realistic, but it wouldn't be fun. In fact, it'd be a chore. A game where the only way to win is by dying lots of times? Plus, it's exploitable, because dying is a very easy thing to do.

To be honest, I don't fully understand the criticisms of the Creature stage (apart from the lack of stacked bonuses, that could've been workable). It's not as if you click on a skeleton on the ground and voila! You have wings! In order to get the wings onto your creature, you have to get DNA points, and in order to get those, you need to complete tasks like alliance (proto-domestication/animal husbandry) and exctinction (hunting). These are the steps on the road to sentience. It's not very realistic, but it doesn't deserve accusations like '3D Tamagotchi'.

That said, it would be cool to see swarms of creatures migrating across the map. But we have to think about computer specs - is the average computer going to be able to handle that?
 
Well for a pseudo-realistic evolution game

1. you get Food points to increase your species population (the other members of your species wanders and gets food points too.. they will tend to follow your lead in terms of cooperating or competing with others for food)

2. Each species accumulates DNA points based on its total population, once a species has enough DNA points, it spawns a New species. If you control the species, then you can decide when the DNA points will get used to make a new species and HOW they will get used (there is a also a maximum number of DNA points that CAN be used in making a new species, the rest of the DNA points are left with the old species). If you make a new species, you lose control of the old species and need to get food points for your existing species.


3. Also You could select for a % of the DNA spent to be Random when making a new species. So when a new species is made, you can only spend a fraction, the rest of the DNA points are spent making other changes (although none that reverse the effect of the changes you made)

The Random % could either be a setting at the beginning of the game [Design v. Darwin] and/or things cost less when Random points are spent on them

Once the new species was made (with both Designed and Random characteristics) then you would chose whether to take control of the new species or the old one.

4. The division shouldn't be food/friend it should be competitor/cooperator. (so the interactions are ... fight with prey for food, fight with competitor to keep food for yourself, charm partner to share food)

5. If your species died, then you would take control of the nearest "relative" still alive



A similar model could be used for the other stages, each would have Evolutionary stages where one X developed out of another
so in Civ one government/Empire would develop from the breakdown of another and attempt to replace the previous empire (Greece, Rome, England, America, the various Dynasties of China, etc.)

so

Creature: basic resource=food, advanced resource=DNA
You control one creature and other creatures of that species act independently (but they follow your pattern)
creatures collect food for the species as a whole,
Food -> Pop size,
Pop size->DNA,
DNA-> New species
Parts unlocked would depend on parts you currently had... so redesign would be constant
[New species starts of with a pop of 1 creature]
Tribe level would be accessed when you built a species with the parts required for intelligence+tool use

Tribe....Basic resource=Labor, Advanced Resource=Social
You control one tribe and other tribes of that region act independently
Pop units of the tribe Either collect food or build tools
Food->pop growth
Tools->improve efficiency of activities, including increasing maximum population/number of territories a Tribe can control
Pop size->Social
Social->New Tribe
Tools unlocked for New Tribes would depend on Tools the previous tribe had and parts neighboring tribes had.
Social points must be spent to make "unlocked" tools "buildable" for a New Tribe
[New Tribes start off with 1 Territory, and the population of that Territory]
A Tribe has Territories and Population...
When a Tribe conquers or allies with a Territory that it cannot control, two new Tribes are formed. Each new Tribe gets a portion of the "foreign" Tribe's Tools unlocked for it
The population of a MultiTerritory Tribe is divided equally among its Territories
Civ level would be accessed once you have control of all neighboring Territories


Civ...Basic resource='Spice', Advanced resource=Ideas
You control all the cities + vehicles of an Empire
Vehicles/Cities (controlled by your actions) collect 'Spice',
'Spice'->Vehicles->Cities through conquest/conversion,
Cities->Ideas,
Ideas->New Empires

Buildings are the 'Parts' of cities, all cities in your Empire would have the same types of buildings giving the Empire its characteristics (social and technological) like the parts of Creatures.
Buildings would unlock based on the buildings you currently had in your cities.
Vehicle Parts would continuously unlock as Idea levels built up based on which parts were in use on your Vehicles.
[New empires would start with some fraction of the Old Empires cities.. depending on how many of the Old Empires Buildings were removed, so you if you want to remove the Old Empire buildings, you need to breakaway and fight them. If you are just adding buildings, then you will only have a few Luiddite cities to put down.]
Conquering/Allying with a new city would get some of its Buildings unlocked for your Empire.
Forming a New Empire would allow spending Ideas to design your cities by adding or modifying Buildings that have been unlocked, removing them requires no Idea spending, but it provides extra Idea points in exchange for less cities for the new empire.

Space would be reached once you unlocked certain vehicle and Building components
 
They got it more or less right for the cell stage; here creature design actually makes a bit of difference. Shame it's only enough to fill a coffee break.

Here, design actually has a bit of an effect.for example...
Electrocution in the back, spike on the front, cilia somewhere for an agile little organism that can turn the table on any aggressor (stun, then poke)...
Fast herbivore with the mouths on the side so it can empty plant clumps while traveling at full speed... interestingly, the game suggested putting the mouth in the front of the cell when I did that. thinking discouraged?

it's possible to find your niche and adapt to it, even if it could have been better. For example, the position of flagellae etc should have influenced how you move - some very simple physics there and a missed opportunity.

***

In comparison, the creature stage feels totally off. There is no continuity; you can change forms like you would a suit and the game even encourages you to do just that. Decisions that have no consequences are meaningless.
Instead of beating up/brown-nosing anything and everything, I would have liked some incentive to pick some species to have symbiotic relationships with and leave others a danger.

Again, having an underlying system that makes sense would have been great (e.g. compact builds mean slower but sturdier organisms, more powerful limbs mean higher metabolic rate and therefore higher food intake etc) instead of a simply collecting stuff and putting it wherever it looks cool (or ridiculous...).

I think the too-friendly design philosophy limits the game. For a life simulator with a supposed emphasis on evolution, natural selection should have been a factor. It would have been fun to see how ridiculous you can make your organisms before they are simply too awkward to live...

I had looked forward to a deep and complex game with dynamic gameplay. Given what we got, I'm not surprised many people apparently find creating penis monsters is the most fun thing you can do with it.
 
I would agree with your critique, but I still think that the game is definitely worth playing.
 
Just a quick comment,

Catharsis said:
That would be more realistic, but it wouldn't be fun. In fact, it'd be a chore. A game where the only way to win is by dying lots of times? Plus, it's exploitable, because dying is a very easy thing to do.

@Catharsis, I didn't mean that. What I meant was, you could still evolve however and whenever you want, but when the AI creature evolves it uses those logical rules I mentioned in order to decide what changes to make to itself.
 
I thought Spore was enjoyable the first time I played it. The second time was fine, but I can't see myself playing it much in the future.

The fundamental problem as I see it is that the game lacks depth in each of its stages while at the same time encompassing a great deal.

I'm not really interested in "realistic" evolution because I think I think it would be less fun than might be initially conceived. But I felt that there was a missed opportunity for adding real depth particularly for the creature stage.

One of the most disappointing factors is the complete lack of environmental impacts on the course of evolution. I would've had a number of different planetary factors such as gravity, atmosphere, temperature, ocean levels, etc. You could randomize these things or customize your own... This would impact the flora and fauna that would develop... If you're on a cold world or at least a cold latitude, you might want a furry coat instead of a body of slick scales (so in this case textures might actually be important if it's tied into that).

I also felt that they should've included some options for the things that you can't see... such as lungs vs. gills. Of course, to justify such a thing, you'd need an interesting water environment to go along with it, which I felt was also seriously lacking. It seems though that they plan to add that in future expansions.

I would've also liked to see the creatures more scalable. The ability to increase the creature's size (unless I missed something) seemed pretty limited without simply lengthening the limbs to make them taller. Size should increase the ability of the creature to reach different food sources, protect against predators (or if it is a predator increase it's lethality), but the downside should probably be a longer growth period and a greater demand for food for each level the creature is scaled up.

I also thought there could've been some interesting possibilities for nesting/homes and social organization. Every species has exactly the same kind of nest and they all lay eggs (they even lay exactly the same kind of eggs). Nevermind the possibilities for aquatic homes, there could've been creatures that created burrows or nested in trees or on cliffs. Every species in the game uses small packs, but the level of social organization could've ranged from solitary creatures to large herds to bee or ant-like colonies with a rigid heirarchy. Each of these possibilities would come with their own strengths and weaknesses and would practical for animals depending on their food sources and size. A bee-like colony of elephant-sized creatures would probably have difficulty sustaining themselves for example.

Of course, I'm not looking for something that represents the full variety and specialization of nature because that wouldn't be possible. But I felt that for a game that allows you to create such varied creatures, they really don't have a variety of things to do or much variation in how they behave. If you went for combat, you're directed along a narrow line of part choices, and then you pretty much just hack and slash your way to the tribal stage. If you decide to go for social/herbivore, you have an even narrower set of choices and then wash-rinse-repeat those silly little dances for other creatures. And if you pick omnivore, you essentially get the opportunity to not be particularly good at either of those two things. Which is kind of a metaphor for Spore itself which, while beautiful and moderately fun is neither a very good RPG nor a very good RTS.

I also felt that the game was rather stingy with the DNA points. I rarely had enough to make the creature I wanted and instead had to settle on the one I could afford. (If I wanted to feel broke and powerless, I'd go outside! ;) ) But if I worked harder to get more DNA points, I only hastened my passing to the next stage and thus I couldn't really get a chance to enjoy the fruits of my labor... And I felt it was a little silly that parts that served a purely aesthetic purpose cost valuable and indispensible DNA points.

I think that the "mating" factor for initiating the creature developer was an interesting and good idea. That gets a thumbs up, but as someone said already, I didn't like the fact that you could walk into it with one creature and walk out of it with something completely different! I might suggest that instead of having DNA points affecting the total number of available parts, that instead you should accumulate points to determine how dramatically you can alter the creature from one evolution point to the next. It would not only make the game more realistic, it would make it more challenging as well. I felt that letting me jackknife from one strategy to another at will really made the game exceptionally easy. My choices really had no consequences because I could simply go back and overwrite them completely whenever I felt like it.

I won't get into the later stages too much because I think it's rather evident that they lack any real depth in spite of the great customability of the vehicles. Personally, I think if I were developing this game, I would've cut out the last three stages of the game and simply focused on the first two. I think one can reasonably say that it was excessive ambition with limited resources that killed this beast.
 
the thing is, spore is not even a groundbreaker or pioneer in it's genre. I remember an old game in which you could play with species that could evolve, and it was FAR more indepth then spore as chunked out by EA ever could aspire.
 
@Dom Pedro II, I strongly agree with your post. I think you said it very well. And I agree there should be limits on how much you can remove in one go, and how far you can move/resize a part that's already attached.

@Krikkitone, I agree that a population count should have figured in the game, with the possibility of going extinct! I wouldn't have you going straight to creature editor every time you laid an egg, I'd make it so the eggs just added to population, unless you deliberately clicked on it to 'evolve'...

@philippe, I also agree, Spore isn't as innovative as most people think :)

Before I was talking about Populous: The Beginning. Thanks to a fan-made patch, I've got this old gem working on my Vista PC. Note this game was out 10 years ago (1998), with 3D planets, buildings, vehicles, hundreds of warriors at once, and dynamic terrain!

ptb2.jpg


ptb3.jpg


ptb4.jpg


ptb1.jpg
 
Before I was talking about Populous: The Beginning. Thanks to a fan-made patch, I've got this old gem working on my Vista PC. Note this game was out 10 years ago (1998), with 3D planets, buildings, vehicles, hundreds of warriors at once, and dynamic terrain!

PopulousTB is one of my favorite RTS's of all time. If you want tribal stage fun, forget Spore and give this a try. The armageddon spell was craaaazy.
 
I probably would have bought it if it wasn't for the DRM, I was looking for another game to buy and was thinking about spore, but when I realized the restrictions on the game I went for something else.
 
@Dom Pedro II, I strongly agree with your post. I think you said it very well. And I agree there should be limits on how much you can remove in one go, and how far you can move/resize a part that's already attached.

@Krikkitone, I agree that a population count should have figured in the game, with the possibility of going extinct! I wouldn't have you going straight to creature editor every time you laid an egg, I'd make it so the eggs just added to population, unless you deliberately clicked on it to 'evolve'...

@philippe, I also agree, Spore isn't as innovative as most people think :)

Before I was talking about Populous: The Beginning. Thanks to a fan-made patch, I've got this old gem working on my Vista PC. Note this game was out 10 years ago (1998), with 3D planets, buildings, vehicles, hundreds of warriors at once, and dynamic terrain!

If EA had the license to Populous why didn't they just incorporate that kind of gameplay instead of the crappy tribal stage they have now?
 
If EA had the license to Populous why didn't they just incorporate that kind of gameplay instead of the crappy tribal stage they have now?

Because EA is not a monolithic organization where everyone moves in lock-step but a corporation with lots of different people each with their own agendas, projects and points of view and those who made Populous probably had nothing to do with Spore... and probably because this game is ten years old and had long since faded from the collective mind of the gaming world in general.
 
Because EA is not a monolithic organization where everyone moves in lock-step but a corporation with lots of different people each with their own agendas, projects and points of view and those who made Populous probably had nothing to do with Spore... and probably because this game is ten years old and had long since faded from the collective mind of the gaming world in general.

I'm not so sure, the presentation here borrows heavily from Populous TB. I'm thinking they were using it as a template graphics wise. Too bad they copied only the looks, ignoring the fact that what made that game one of the greats was the gameplay.
 
Back
Top Bottom