Star Trek Replicators

[Mise]

For those of you who don't know, Star Trek is a sci-fi series set a few hundreds of years into the future. In the series, scientists have discovered how to convert matter into energy and vice versa in such a way that it enables "replicators" to create anything you want. Food, drink, clothes, guns, books, gadgets... a whole plethora of things can be replicated in a matter of seconds. Hunger, poverty, homelessness are all things of the past, in part thanks to these replication devices. They create perfect copies of anything, and can fabricate something from nothing if it had previously been fabricated by somebody else on the universal replicator network.

Now, at the moment, if an inventor invents, say, a new type of milk carton/bottle/bag that warns you when your milk is going sour, the inventor holds a patent, and can sell the invention because he can control how many of the items can be sold. However, with these new replicators installed everywhere, the invention would quickly be scanned into the replicator, and copies would be made; furthermore, specifications for the milk carton, generated by the initial replication process, would propagate exponentially through the replicator network, enabling anyone in the world to replicate the invention, without compensating the inventor.

Would this mean that, since there is no incentive for the inventor to make such a milk carton, we would stagnate, and never innovate, develop or produce anything anymore? Do you think these replication devices should be made illegal?

For the love of God, don't nitpick about this hypothetical being unrealistic, or not being representative of what actually happens in Star Trek... Don't make me dig out Fifty's "how to answer a hypothetical question" guide.

 

[holy king]

people only work for money. if they can replicate money there will be no reason for them to work.

 

[Cutlass]

You could try to build enforcement if intellectual property rights into the replicator and the inventor could get a royalty. Alternatively, inventors could be on the payroll of the replicator company.

 

[Elta]

people only work for money. if they can replicate money there will be no reason for them to work.

Yes of course, that is why no one ever makes a mod for a game and gives it out for free.




Once you are rich (And everyone in a replicator world is) you only do things that are fun or help your reputation. Or (brace yourself) to contribute to society for no profit.

Some people like making cheese, some like making clothes. This will always be so.

 

[dosed150]

the federation does seem to be a sort of communist state, that actually works-well it is fiction, so in such a state the inventor isn't going to care because money isn't peoples motivation

 

[Greizer85]

With replicators, we could move to a true communist society overnight. Only violent psychopaths would want to harm other people in any way in such a world. When you could simply replicate everything you need, everyone would be equally rich. There would be no economy anymore, as exchange of wares is crucial for the concept. And in a post-scarcity world, no wares would ever be exchanged - only replicated. (Copyrights are frankly too stupid to even consider, as is money.)

In such a world, people would most likely migrate towards artistic, meditative or exploratory* endeavors (*much like in Star Trek). As there would no longer be a need for endless, slavish grinding to sustain yourself, after an initial feeling of emptiness, humanity would enter a new unprecedented golden age. While greed would not itself be eradicated, its mechanism would be. Want something really badly - want a mountain of gold/jewels? Just replicate it!

Note that there are some caveats. A lot depends on the cost and availabilty of replication. If everyone could replicate anything as much as they want, the planet would look like a giant toystore/mineshaft in a matter of months if not minutes... There would need to be some legal limits, and likely there would be functional limits, too. These limits could provide a new mechanism for greed to operate: "Used up your replication quota? Well neighbour, look what I just replicated!".

It's an intriguing idea. Iirc this thread is not a replica of a former one. Gasp - something new to debate about! Quickly - someone open a new abortion thread! What is the world coming to?

Edit: You couldn't replicate skills though... Although manufacturing would no longer be necessary, we'd still need purely skill-based professions. Teachers, doctors, etc. So class differences would still exist. And persons most likely could not be replicated; at the very least they shouldn't be. So everyone couldn't replicate their own doctor or teacher. What would people be paid with in such a world? Perhaps we could have robot doctors and virtual teachers; or perhaps enough goodwill could be raised to provide these benefits for free, as many more people could work in them now that the majority of jobs could be abolished.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

if they can replicate money there will be no reason for them to work.

Economics does not work that way...

Yes, as people said, with such magical devices, we would be in a post-scarcity economy, and people just won't care about patenting goods. Intellectual works and services however, might be a different matter (so yeah, if this is a throwback to that thread about music piracy, I don't know how you got from that situation to this).

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

Without scarcity everything would change. Clearly the forces that keep (some of) us on our feet today would rot away, but without scarcity we wouldn't necessarily need them, and we'd have to rely on our more noble impulses to move forward. Given unlimited abundance these noble traits might even be enough to see us through, but scarcity has been a constant since our first moment of existence, so nobody could really predict what would happen without it.

 

[Agent327]

Scarcity isn't abolished in the Star Trek universe, nor is hunger or disease. Also, it does not even require a specific technology to erase hunger from a planet such as ours; it does require a certain amount of political - and personal - determination.

the federation does seem to be a sort of communist state, that actually works-well it is fiction, so in such a state the inventor isn't going to care because money isn't peoples motivation

I think you got the Federation mixed up with the Romulans. (Although originally the Klingon Empire was modelled after Soviet Russia, I am told.) The Federation is more like a federative republic. That there is no money does not imply there are no things of value to be had (especially latinum) ; the Ferengi Alliance, being a sort of male chauvinist capitalist paternalist race, thrives on trade. (Actually it is somewhat unclear what happened to private property in the different series/movies.) Also, 20th-21st century communist regimes definitely have money, apparently being unable to abolish the abomination altogether.

 

[Elta]

Scarcity isn't abolished in the Star Trek universe, nor is hunger or disease. Also, it does not even require a specific technology to erase hunger from a planet such as ours; it does require a certain amount of political - and personal - determination.



I think you got the Federation mixed up with the Romulans. (Although originally the Klingon Empire was modelled after Soviet Russia, I am told.) The Federation is more like a federative republic. That there is no money does not imply there are no things of value to be had (especially latinum) ; the Ferengi Alliance, being a sort of male chauvinist capitalist paternalist race, thrives on trade. (Actually it is somewhat unclear what happened to private property in the different series/movies.) Also, 20th-21st century communist regimes definitely have money, apparently being unable to abolish the abomination altogether.

I am no communist, but if that is anyone's goal, I would consider this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics

 

[dosed150]

Scarcity isn't abolished in the Star Trek universe, nor is hunger or disease. Also, it does not even require a specific technology to erase hunger from a planet such as ours; it does require a certain amount of political - and personal - determination.



I think you got the Federation mixed up with the Romulans. (Although originally the Klingon Empire was modelled after Soviet Russia, I am told.) The Federation is more like a federative republic. That there is no money does not imply there are no things of value to be had (especially latinum) ; the Ferengi Alliance, being a sort of male chauvinist capitalist paternalist race, thrives on trade. (Actually it is somewhat unclear what happened to private property in the different series/movies.) Also, 20th-21st century communist regimes definitely have money, apparently being unable to abolish the abomination altogether.

well that quote from captain picard in first contact, i don't get paid, aqquisition of material goods no longer drives us, instead we are motivated by working for the good of humanity

as for the ferengi well their not in the federation and they are depicted as mostly amoral oppurtunists. can't think of anything to imply romulans are communists if anything the opposite most romulans seem to live in poverty while a minority live in luxury

 

[Tabster]

This milk carten may a have a use in our world, in replicator world you would just make fresh milk when you wanted it. most packaging would become largely pointless in replicator world.

But I understand what you're saying, I think acknowledging the originator is a fair way to start, though, this seems to be enough for scientist, I did'nt think Boyle's law made Mr Boyle rich. But he has gain some 'immortality' because of it, in a cashless, everything you need world, this might be something that would motivate people.

 

[Mise]

For the record, this was inspired by Munch's post in one of the piracy threads (if people could download a bicycle, they would do it). As much as I'd like to, I can't claim credit for a completely original thread in OT

It's obvious to me that the world would be a much better place if replication technology existed -- that is, technology that could produce a practically infinite quantity of things. In such a scenario (I'll call it "Replication Scenario" from now on, just so people stop arguing about the specifics of the Star Trek universe ), the limitation is the amount of energy consumed (and as Greizer said, where to put it all!); in music piracy, the limitation is the amount of storage space on your iPod and download time (or the sum of all storage space, for direct comparison).

Now, there would be some things that could not be replicated, as people have already said. Skills, services, etc would still have to be compensated in some way. A common currency would no doubt be set up; in Star Trek, replicator credits/rations are used, but it needn't be something explicitly useful -- it could just as well be the USD. We can take hints from MMORPGs, where people spend lots of time killing monsters in the hopes that they will drop something they can sell for "virtual gold", and that they can then use this virtual gold to buy something more useful that somebody else has found after killing lots of monsters. The amount of time spent doing things in MMORPGs is a major contributor to the cost of the good. Similarly, trade skills in MMORPGs have similar barriers to entry as trade skills in real life, in that you have to invest a lot of time and money into acquiring them, but the skills can't be replicated by a machine and thus are valuable to other people.

Back in the real world, IP is protected by legal mandates. An IP owner (say, HTC) invents a new type of device (say, a mobile phone) that has real commercial potential. In the West, that commercial potential can be realised, because competitors aren't allowed to use HTC's innovations in their own devices, without HTC's consent. However, in Communist China, cheap knock-offs of HTC phones are everywhere, that look, feel, and act just like the real thing. They are, to all intents and purposes, identical. And they are, to all intents and purposes, infinitely replicable at near-zero marginal cost by factories all across China.

IP advocates criticise China for not enforcing patents. They claim that it stifles innovation and reduces investment in R&D, leading to fewer new technologies in the future. But, as this thread demonstrates, it is really, really easy to imagine a world with no IP protection, no patents, and no legal rights for the originator of new inventions or innovations, that nonetheless produces, innovates and invents. In fact, the idealised world presented in the OP and in Star Trek shows that this IP-free world is significantly better than our current world, because new innovations don't cost an arm and a leg, and are propagated around the world immediately.

Would the world be a better place without IP laws, where companies are free to copy and rip off competitor products in order to enhance their own? It would certainly be cheaper for all of us -- including the original IP owner.

 

[Patroklos]

Replicators require energy, and thus the old economic style marches on.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Would the world be a better place without IP laws, where companies are free to copy and rip off competitor products in order to enhance their own? It would certainly be cheaper for all of us -- including the original IP owner.

R&D budgets devoted to industrial espionage instead of research. I like it.

 

[Mise]

R&D budgets devoted to industrial espionage instead of research. I like it.

Industrial espionage...? How much industrial espionage do Chinese knock-off manufacturers budget for? As I said, it is very easy to imagine a world where IP is completely worthless, and yet still produces, innovates and invents.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Maybe companies start engaging in a spy war, putting up stronger defenses against reverse engineering and plugging of data leaks and at the same time developing better tools to wrest information out of competitors. This might be the case if research in a product is very expensive and/or results in huge profits, thus providing the necessary incentives.

 

[really]

But I understand what you're saying, I think acknowledging the originator is a fair way to start, though, this seems to be enough for scientist, I didn't think Boyle's law made Mr Boyle rich. But he has gain some 'immortality' because of it, in a cashless, everything you need world, this might be something that would motivate people.

Boyle is a good example - he was born into a wealthy aristocratic family. He didn't need to work to put food on the table. He had resources to employ people and devise experiments. He was living in the 17th century's equivalent of a replicator society.

He chose to spend his time doing research.

 

[Mise]

@SS-18 ICBM:
Research is expensive because companies have to pay people money to do things. People demand lots of money because things they want to buy are expensive. In a world with no IP protection, things become a lot cheaper, meaning research staff don't need to be paid as much, which brings R&D costs down. Cheaper R&D costs, coupled with resultant lower wages in the wider economy (for the same reasons), mean that the end product becomes less expensive. So a combination of (a) cheaper R&D costs, and (b) lower profits would mean that it is less and less likely that companies would, in fact, devote significant spending to industrial espionage. This is a positive feedback cycle, too.

Furthermore, if a company can incorporate an innovation that another company developed without spending R&D themselves, the product becomes not only cheaper, but also better for the end user. A world where every product is slightly better is surely a better world.

There is obviously a trade off, i.e. a point where the lower cost to society outweighs the loss of innovation. Some clever economist type might one day come up with a curve that pinpoints that point, and we can look for industries where that point has already been reached, and eliminate IP protection in those industries. The Replicator Scenario does this for most physical goods. The Internet does this for most media. Intelligent robots might do this for skills and creativity.

EDIT: As you can see, I am "thinking out loud". I might formulate something more substantial this weekend...

 

[onedreamer]

ROFLMAO, you think that if someone would invent this tool we would all have access to it and in free manner ? You must be kidding.