staznesX: All Under Heaven

[a_propagandist]

Kingdom of Denmark-Norway
CAPITAL: Copenhagen
RULER: King Christian VII
GOVERNMENT: Traditional Monarchy (Qualified)
CENTRALIZATION: Dictatorship
POPULATION: Small (2)
AREA: Small (2)
CONFIDENCE: Moderate
ECONOMY: Growing (7/9/3)
TECH. GRADE: Late Enlightenment Age
ARMY FORCES: 12 Infantry, 4 Dragoons, 4 Guard (Regular) (10 Art to deploy)
[Danish India] 2 Colonials
ARMY BASIC: Disciplined
NAVY FORCES: 10 Ships-of-the-Line, 15 Frigates (Regular)
NAVY BASIC: Disciplined
EDUCATION: Educated
LIVING STANDARDS: Average
INFRASTRUCTURE: Decent
PROJECTS:
MILITARY UPKEEP: 2/turn
BACKGROUND:

?

 

[Neverwonagame3]

dasian flavor I regard most of them as forts and outposts at this point, but I can't be bothered to remove them now


From: King Jyzsef II of the Hapsburg Empire
To: His Impiousness, Fredrick II of Sweden

It is a tragedy that the Swedish people find themselves under a madman once again. The Hapsburg Empire will not tolerate your Dark Age rhetoric any longer.

The Thirty Years War is over. If you wish to rekindle it, it certainly will not last that long the second time around.

Hang on- that's progressivist rhethoric! As far as I know progressivism didn't exist yet, and I don't remember any rhethoric from the time in that manner.

 

[Azale]

Hang on- that's progressivist rhethoric! As far as I know progressivism didn't exist yet, and I don't remember any rhethoric from the time in that manner.

While there are religious quarrels still left in Europe, it's not the end all be all it once was. It's the age of Enlightenment, a move towards reason and away from established churches and whatnot. While the Hapsburgs certainly are part of the "established order" from before, they are not completely unaffected by the Enlightenment. Especially when rhetoric from a rival nation, one that sought not too long ago their destruction in coordination with their French allies, appears to be reactionary and coming from a time when the stated goals of European countries was the eradication of a certain religion or religious sect. It's not progressive, it's Enlightened

 

[Neverwonagame3]

While there are religious quarrels still left in Europe, it's not the end all be all it once was. It's the age of Enlightenment, a move towards reason and away from established churches and whatnot. While the Hapsburgs certainly are part of the "established order" from before, they are not completely unaffected by the Enlightenment. Especially when rhetoric from a rival nation, one that sought not too long ago their destruction in coordination with their French allies, appears to be reactionary and coming from a time when the stated goals of European countries was the eradication of a certain religion or religious sect. It's not progressive, it's Enlightened

The rhethoric of the "Enlightenment" and of the "progressives" was significantly diffrent. I can look up some historical sources to demonstrate if you don't believe me.

 

[Luckymoose]

The rhethoric of the "Enlightenment" and of the "progressives" was significantly diffrent. I can look up some historical sources to demonstrate if you don't believe me.

Don't argue with the mod over an issue his mind is made up about.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Don't argue with the mod over an issue his mind is made up about.

Assuming, hypothetically, I am right, then I should argue. This is important for realistic attitudes.

ARGUMENT, PART 1:
I am still searching through the sources (I can't find any extracts from rhethoric, so am going to try propaganda as well), but some starting points:

-The Hapsburgs would not have considered somebody mad for repudiating relations with those of a seperate faith
-If they had somehow, the Pope (who did denounce the peace of Westphalia and claim that parts of it were null and void). Source: http://history.wisc.edu/sommerville/351/351-05.htm) would have been angry.

 

[Jason The King]

Assuming, hypothetically, I am right, then I should argue. This is important for realistic attitudes.

The way an NES typically works is the mod runs the game to the best of his ability and as close to historical accuracy as he wants. Generally the players should accept what he has decided is realistic for the game.

 

[a_propagandist]

So is my request approved?

 

[Neverwonagame3]

The way an NES typically works is the mod runs the game to the best of his ability and as close to historical accuracy as he wants. Generally the players should accept what he has decided is realistic for the game.

We should get illusions about how the past actually was, giving a second purpose to what I intend to do. And Azale may want to switch if he is convinced by my case.

MORE ARGUMENTS: (I will get sources if asked)
-The Hapsburg Empire did not tolerate Protestants, and not that long ago tried to defeat the Protestants. Having held similiar sentiments at the most a generation before, they would not denounce them as madness at this time. They alone were allowed to try and force Protestants to abandon their faith (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=1635&HistoryID=ab39). They also (ibid) vigorously supressed Protestantism in Bohemia and the northern parts of what we now call Austria.

-To be fair, they did make an exception of Silesia in their supression policy. But they did attempt to impose Catholicism on the rest of the empire.

-They did not denounce the French for expelling the Protestants

-The Austrians, as the losers of the Thirty Years War, would be more likely to resent the peace

-TO BE FAIR, they could have made a rash and exaggerated claim plausibly as a deliberate diplomatic ploy, or the equivilant of a modern rash statement (like calling someone delusional for believing in a swing when there was a 5% swing).

 

[Symphony D.]

FROM: Kingdom of Korea
TO: Nan Ming Empire

The King of Korea, Seongjong, sends word to His Imperial Majesty the Emperor of the Great Ming Dynasty, Son of Heaven, Lord of Ten Thousand Years of the submission of tribute to His Imperial Majesty embodied within a fine selection of Korea's most extravagant wares and craft works. It is the hope of the King that this offer, borne forth accompanying this message, will please His Imperial Majesty and like the endless shifting of the seasons, maintain the harmonious relationship of all under heaven, and restore the friendship in the relationship between China and Korea to be again like the spring. In addition, the King wishes His Imperial Majesty continued health and vigor, and that his reign be most prosperous and rewarding.

JosefStalinator (for his ruleset)

OOC: That he didn't have a hand in writing, yes.

 

[Thlayli]

Honestly NWG, you're arguing semantics in trying to dispute what is ultimately Enlightenment rhetoric.

Also, you're making the assumption that 'Enlightenment' can't also include 'suppression of unwanted groups'. As the concept of 'enlightened monarchy' suggests, the Habsburgs can be both 'enlightened' and exclusively Catholic.

Of course, a statement by Tuscany criticizing Protestants, for example, could be called 'Dark Age rhetoric' by yourself, using the same ideals to your own purposes.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Honestly NWG, you're arguing semantics in trying to dispute what is ultimately Enlightenment rhetoric.

Also, you're making the assumption that 'Enlightenment' can't also include 'suppression of unwanted groups'. As the concept of 'enlightened monarchy' suggests, the Habsburgs can be both 'enlightened' and exclusively Catholic.

Of course, a statement by Tuscany criticizing Protestants, for example, could be called 'Dark Age rhetoric' by yourself, using the same ideals to your own purposes.

The last statement is irrelevant- I am arguing about historical accuracy.

Azale used the concept of the Enlightenment as a way of justifying the Hapsburgs denouncing my statement as Dark Age rhethoric. If they were both 'enlightened' and exclusively Catholic, they would not have done so. Instead, they would have seen it as a resurgence of the Protestant threat.

 

[Terrance888]

Papal States
CAPITAL: Rome
RULER: Pope Benedict XIV
GOVERNMENT: Theocratic Monarchy (Decent)
CENTRALIZATION: Consulistic
POPULATION: Small (2)
AREA: Tiny (1)
CONFIDENCE: Growing
ECONOMY: Stable (5/7/2)
TECH. GRADE: Late Enlightenment Age
ARMY FORCES: 3 Infantry, 4 Guard (Regular) (1 Art to deploy)
ARMY BASIC: Disciplined
NAVY FORCES: N/A
NAVY BASIC: Green
EDUCATION: Learned
LIVING STANDARDS: Pleasant
INFRASTRUCTURE: Decent
PROJECTS:
MILITARY UPKEEP: 0/turn
BACKGROUND:


I TAKE THIS: Only person I WILL give this to is Yui if he wants it. So it is technically a reserve for Yui: BUT: he might not want it: and it looks good non-the-less.

 

[Symphony D.]

OOC: And thus did Catholicism collapse.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

By the way Symphony D, what do you think of the plausibility of the Hapsburg denunciation of Sweden, as Azale worded it?

 

[North King]

OOC: Given the prevalence of cross-sect alliances, I'd say there's little to none of the vicious religious hatred that Sweden displayed. At most, in these days they were used to justify wars declared for other reasons.

 

[Symphony D.]

By the way Symphony D, what do you think of the plausibility of the Hapsburg denunciation of Sweden, as Azale worded it?

OOC: I can acknowledge when I don't know enough to make an informed opinion, and I don't in this instance. On top of that, I also don't care. Europe can bicker all it wants.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

OOC: Given the prevalence of cross-sect alliances, I'd say there's little to none of the vicious religious hatred that Sweden displayed. At most, in these days they were used to justify wars declared for other reasons.

A King who had a guilty conscience for such alliances is quite plausible, and all it takes is somebody with stubborness and a strong sense of morality suceeding to a throne for that to translate into action.

Calling it 'vicious religious hatred' is unjustified. He could simply be trying to create what he sees as consistent national policy, combined with his own strong sense of piety. (Since Sweden doesn't tolerate Catholics, alliance with them for mere gain in power is, in this context, hypocritical)

While, to be fair, this last argument isn't one for it's plasubility, Azale told me in a PM he didn't mind it.

 

[Azale]

@neverwonagame, I don't mind, it's your Riksdag and your people you have to confront As for our rhetoric argument, let's drop it considering the Hungarians now have a player.

@symphony, proper thanks extended to you as well for writing Josef's rules

@a_propagandist, confirmed

@charles li, confirmed

 

[BananaLee]

Europe can bicker all it wants.

Amen to that