Stem cell researc to go forward in the US, Bush promises to veto..

[El_Machinae]

Edit: x-posted with betazed! And .Shane.

I have a proposition to fusion supports. Show the proof that fusion are better than coal-fired plants and what energy they have allowed humans to harvest. You need to be able to show that there is more benefit in fusion than coal-fired plants.

Oh, and only work on the tokamak design, or else be punished.

Classical Hero: I've asked you a bunch of times for a stable source of neural stem cells. Found one yet?

 

[classical_hero]

Not necessarily. (While it may be shown as such it would hardly bolster the argument for ESCR).

Scientific research is not done solely for immediate benefits primarily because benefits of a particular line of research is impossible to guess unless the line is pursued sometimes for decades on. We have been pursuing controlled fusion power research for 50 years now and there are no immediate benefits in sight (and many are questioning whether there ever will be). Should we stop all fusion research? If not, how long would you want to sustain the research before you pull the plug on it? So why different standards for stem cell research?

Because of the methoeds getting there. You have a technique to get ASCs easily and that is basically unlimted, well limited by the number of humans, whereas there are problems with getting Embryos because you will need to either harvest them from donors, or you will need to clone them, which cause more problems. Also with ASCs we have been working with them successfully for many years and we have seen extremely little from ESC over the many years they have been researching them. The main problem is that there are so many hurdles still to overcome with ESCs and yet there are very few for ASC and we are still seeing the benefits and you cannot argue with results. So if you had two methods that could give you results and you have one that is clinically proven and the other is not and yet you still want to go for the second option, well that is just crazy.

 

[ironduck]

Is there anyone who isn't religious who oppose ESC research? As I just described in the EU the problem lies with the catholic lobbying, and in this thread everyone opposing seem to do so on religious grounds as well.

 

[betazed]

<snip>So if you had two methods that could give you results and you have one that is clinically proven and the other is not and yet you still want to go for the second option, well that is just crazy.

Well, going by the same argument as before, we have at least half a dozen known methods to create electricity. So why go for another option (fusion research) when we do not even know if we can ever succeed in getting it to work?

Why isn't that crazy?

 

[betazed]

Is there anyone who isn't religious who oppose ESC research?

I do not think I have met or heard of anyone who isn't religious who opposses ESC.

And therein lies all the explanation.

 

[classical_hero]

I do not think I have met or heard of anyone who isn't religious who opposses ESC.

And therein lies all the explanation.

That is BS. Do you really want a repeat of South Korea? There have been no instances of fraud going on in ASCR, but there have been cases in ESCR. Also where will the money for ESCR come from, will it mean that ASCR loses money?

 

[ironduck]

There have been no instances of fraud going on in ASCR

Please explain how you know this.

 

[betazed]

That is BS. Do you really want a repeat of South Korea? There have been no instances of fraud going on in ASCR, but there have been cases in ESCR.

And you will of course explain to me why the fraud of one scientist renders the scientific progress of an entire field useless, right?

Also where will the money for ESCR come from, will it mean that ASCR loses money?

And also you will explain why the source of money is important for the importance of peer-reviewed scientific work?

 

[El_Machinae]

Okay, at the risk of replying and never (again) getting an answer...

I have a proposition to ESCR supports. Show the proof that ESC are better than ASC and what diseases they have been allowed to study on humans. You need to be able to show that there is more benefit in ESCR than ASCR.

Keep in mind that:
ASCR has been around longer
ASCR has more funding (implicit and explicit)
ASCR has more potential researchers (because religious scientists work in this field)
ASCR has more potential donors (easier to harvest ASC than get embryoes)

So, ESC is fighting with one arm tied behind its back - right?

Geron; who's been hassled by auditors, regulators, and protestors, AND had to build a funding base from the base up has delivered this:
- insulin producing cells; without surgery to the patient or donors first
http://www.geron.com/pressview.asp?id=737
(with ASC we cannot transform them yet, so we need donors (requiring a cadaver or donor))pubmed

- how about spinal cord repair?
http://www.geron.com/pressview.asp?id=714 - May 2005

Considering that were just now able to nurture blood stem cells to neural stem cells (which makes me awfully happy), I'd say the ESCR won this race. Now, to be fair, this worked with ASC too (pubmed), but the source of adult neural stem cells was wanting (though it's gotten better).

Again; with one arm tied behind its back.

 

[El_Machinae]

That is BS. Do you really want a repeat of South Korea? There have been no instances of fraud going on in ASCR, but there have been cases in ESCR. Also where will the money for ESCR come from, will it mean that ASCR loses money?

1) Dr. Dino was arrested for fraud charges. You going to give up Creationism now? Didn't think so. Maybe because the fraud has nothing to do with the reseach

2) ESCR is funded right now, but because of restrictions, it's delivering less value than it could.

 

[Paradigne]

There are quite a few ways to look at this.

1) The most modern medical advances came to pass by nazi's eviscerating jews. Did that make it right? The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few?

OK that one is a little far stretched even for my conservative views.

2) Throwing MORE government money at a theory that stem cell research can lead to wonder drugs is a waste, unless we want to cut into fundings from other forms of research such as aids and cancer.

3) We are a capitalistic society, the private sector can do this on it's own, After all they are the ones who will gain monetarily form the developments.

I personally stand between two and three.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I would dispute your claim that most modern medical advances came from the Nazis. If I recall correctly they practiced really sloppy science, on the grounds that it was just Jews. Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?

And what is so hard to understand about the free rider problem here? Private funding (especially with all the restrictions put on it) is not going to achieve as much.

 

[GenMarshall]

Somehow I am glad that Bush vetoed this research. However, I am going to post the article in a separate thread.

 

[Abaddon]

AH, what an *******. Why has he got to do this.. damn religion.

 

[El_Machinae]

3) We are a capitalistic society, the private sector can do this on it's own, After all they are the ones who will gain monetarily form the developments.

Man, it's like a mantra.

Is this the mantra you've been fed? Is there some conspiricy to make this a populist meme for those who equate ESC with abortion?

 

[ironduck]

1) The most modern medical advances came to pass by nazi's eviscerating jews.

I assume you're trying to create a hypothetical example here and are fully aware that the above statement is a load of rubbish.

 

[IglooDame]

Man, it's like a mantra.

Is this the mantra you've been fed? Is there some conspiricy to make this a populist meme for those who equate ESC with abortion?

Possibly. But, count me as someone who does not consider ESC equivalent to abortion (and does not consider the bunch of cells legally or morally a human life for at least the first few weeks after fertilization, if not longer) but does not feel that 'blue-sky research' is necessarily the government's purview.

I'm kind of wavering on it, for the exact "Free Rider" reasons that Eran notes, and actually I think restricting government funding to any entity that is engaged in ESC research is quite stupid, though, so maybe I'm not your best example of a non-religious opposer of ESC.

 

[sanabas]

Man, it's like a mantra.

Is this the mantra you've been fed? Is there some conspiricy to make this a populist meme for those who equate ESC with abortion?

You seem surprised that those wishing to ban stuff on religious grounds try to obfuscate things by having a party line that lets them stridently say 'It's not about religion, I want it banned because of this completely non-religious reason.' You should be able to think of multiple examples of this method being used on other topics in less than 5 seconds, no surprise to see it here too.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The worst part is that it is a separate issue from abortion, but allowing some groups to conflate the two just confuses the issue. I am and have always been opposed to abortion on religious and ethical grounds; when I became aware of ESC I was wary, even somewhat opposed, at first but eventually came to accept that, although there are ethical concerns, it is not the same as abortion and the benefits outweigh the costs.

 

[GenMarshall]

The worst part is that it is a separate issue from abortion, but allowing some groups to conflate the two just confuses the issue. I am and have always been opposed to abortion on religious and ethical grounds; when I became aware of ESC I was wary, even somewhat opposed, at first but eventually came to accept that, although there are ethical concerns, it is not the same as abortion and the benefits outweigh the costs.

For me, I am compleately opposed to Embryonic Stem Cell Research because it kills a human life in order to aid another. I feel that these human embryos is a unique human being and life. Its unethical to me to see human embryos being sold and traded like if they were meer commodities. To me, it goes on the same playing field as people stealing organs from people who never gave any approval. The embryo cannot speek for itself and thus has not given any consent. The only ethical options would be, are adult stem cells and donated umbilical cord.