‘Wrapping Your Homophobia Around the Bible!’

[Formaldehyde]

It is just like the US military until recently. The homophobic members would prefer that the homosexuals continue to be persecuted unless they "don't ask and don't tell".

Eventually, it will end. And 20 years later many people will be incredulous that it was any other way.

 

[warpus]

Are there any openly gay rugby players in England? And didn't a couple soccer players just recently "come out"?

I'd guess that there's a bit of a macho/alpha male/"be a man" type of atmosphere in some professional sport locker rooms. These guys slap eachother on the butt and shower together - there's probably a stigma associated with coming out. There's gay players there, but they've got to conform. Well, they don't have to, that's just what the culture in the locker room pushes them towards. My guess anyway.

 

[Borachio]

They're really hard to find!

Here's the only English gay footballer I've managed to find.

http://www.gainsboroughtrinity.com/gainsborough-trinity-players/liam-davis.html

Fashanu was openly gay. But committed suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_English_football

Really, it's surprising why there're so few. Football fans, apparently, couldn't care less about homosexuality.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I think the key of "why there're so few" is found in the first two sentences of the article:

Homosexuality in English football is sometimes said to be a taboo subject by both players and the media.[1][2] As of 2012, there are no openly gay footballers in England's top four divisions...

And I have no idea how you could then come to the conclusion that "Football fans, apparently, couldn't care less about homosexuality." While the numbers are decreasing, and are now apparently even a majority in England, I think that many people still care quite a great deal about it.

 

[Goodfella]

The US would like to punish its gays as much as Russia and Uganda, it would seem?

Difference is these laws in the US are getting shot down. The US is getting more tolerant; almost 60% now support gay marriage and that number is increasing fast. Reactionary republicans don't like it, but they won't hold out for long. On the other hand, 70% of Russians don't even think homosexuality should be tolerated at all and that number's been growing in the last few years. The US is marching towards progress, Russia's headed the other way.

 

[Borachio]

And I have no idea how you could then come to the conclusion that "Football fans, apparently, couldn't care less about homosexuality." While the numbers are decreasing, and are now apparently even a majority in England, I think that many people still care quite a great deal about it.

You don't, huh?

One survey by Staffordshire University showed that more than 90% of football fans would not hold any hostility to a footballer coming out, and suggested that most fans would stand by a gay player who played for their club.[34] The survey showed that most fans expected there would be an openly gay footballer by 2015, and that this would be good for improving the attitude towards homosexuality in the sport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_English_football

Difference is these laws in the US are getting shot down. The US is getting more tolerant; almost 60% now support gay marriage and that number is increasing fast. Reactionary republicans don't like it, but their laws are getting taken down. On the other hand, 70% of Russians don't even think homosexuality should be tolerated at all and that number's been growing in the last few years. The US's is marching towards progress, Russia's headed the other way.

I agree. I was probably being unnecessarily facetious.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The US is marching towards progress, Russia's headed the other way.

It has apparently varied quite a bit. It seems to be largely dependent upon how authoritarian and religious the population was.

From 1993 to mid-2000s, a certain liberalization of sexual life in Russia took place, which was reflected in a flourish of gay literature, issuing of gay poetic almanacs and the organization of poetic festivals dedicated to LGBT themes.

In recent years, however, attitudes towards homosexuals have become increasingly negative. This is partially due to the influence of the post-Soviet Russian Orthodox Church, which restlessly preaches against homosexuality.

You don't, huh?

I even indirectly mentioned that poll myself. But the point remains that the homosexual soccer players are still not comfortable publicly announcing it, and the media is apparently unwilling to really discuss the matter much.

 

[Dralix]

So far it looks like the "rights" of the minority are being used to trample on the rights of the majority.

What rights are we talking about exactly?

Does a Hindu waiter have the right to refuse to bring you a cheeseburger?

Does a Jewish waiter have the right to refuse to bring you a bacon cheeseburger?

Does a Muslim waiter have the right to refuse to bring you that same bacon cheeseburger?

Does a Christian florist have the right to refuse to give you flowers for your gay wedding?

 

[peter grimes]

Simple test: replace the term "homosexual" with "woman". If the law sounds ridiculous, that's because it is.

Unless, of course, you get all tingly when talking about Sharia

 

[Formaldehyde]

Does a Jewish waiter have the right to refuse to bring you a bacon cheeseburger?

He can if it is a kosher restaurant.

This actually happened to me when I first moved to New York.

There was a very famous kosher deli on Broadway in the financial district right next to the famous bull statue called Wolfie's. It doesn't seem to be there any more, or at least I can't google it.

I asked the counterman for a corned beef on rye with swiss cheese, which was the only way I ate corned beef up until that day. He looked at me like I had just insulted him, said "no", and walked away shaking his head. I was so dumbstruck I just left.

When I got back to the office, someone explained to me that it wasn't kosher to combine meat with any dairy product.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

It is about being forced to do things that go against your conscience. Like how those in the wedding industry have to supply things to those who they don't agree should be done. This issue raised it head due to militant homosexuals forcing their views on everyone else. The issue is religious freedom, since you are forcing people to do against their deeply held beliefs that marriage is a union between one man and one woman. I mean should a pro-choose printing shop be forced to print pro-life material? So far it looks like the "rights" of the minority are being used to trample on the rights of the majority.

Not seeing much difference from some business owner with deficit hawk inclinations refusing to serve a handicapped person since they are allegedly a "drain on society". Or a Muslim shop owner refusing to serve women who don't cover their heads.

 

[El_Machinae]

That's what makes this situation sticky, it's extremely prone to slippery slope considerations.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Not seeing much difference from some business owner with deficit hawk inclinations refusing to serve a handicapped person since they are allegedly a "drain on society".

No. It has to be on religious grounds. So the owner would have to claim he thinks his god hates handicapped people.

 

[Commodore]

I hate this issue. Honestly, I COMPLETELY sympathize with not wanting to be forced to do something that you find morally objectionable.

There is nothing that could possibly be morally objectionable about providing goods and services to paying customers.

If it is the homosexuality you are referring to, then these bigots still don't have a leg to stand on because nobody is forcing them to be gay. So they are not being forced to do something they find morally objectionable; unless they find being a decent human being to someone even if you disagree with their lifestyle morally objectionable.

The situation you used as an example is different in that you were truly being forced into doing something that was against your beliefs; but the supporters of bills like the one in Arizona are nothing more than hateful, wretched, evil people who want to be able to loudly proclaim and celebrate their hatred of homosexuals.

 

[peter grimes]

He can if it is a kosher restaurant.

This actually happened to me when I first moved to New York.

There was a very famous kosher deli on Broadway in the financial district right next to the famous bull statue called Wolfie's. It doesn't seem to be there any more, or at least I can't google it.

I asked the counterman for a corned beef on rye with swiss cheese, which was the only way I ate corned beef up until that day. He looked at me like I had just insulted him, said "no", and walked away shaking his head. I was so dumbstruck I just left.

When I got back to the office, someone explained to me that it wasn't kosher to combine meat with any dairy product.

But this example is a little different, right? In this case they refused to make a custom sandwich. It's not like they refused to serve the goyim at all.

I have less of an issue with this than the refusal serve you at all, since it's motivated by their choice to sell specific products rather than only serve specific people.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Oh I agree. I just thought I'd point out that there are cases where refusing to provide a particular food combination, like a cheeseburger in this case, is perfectly reasonable if it actually goes against their religious beliefs.

 

[JollyRoger]

It is morally objectionable to be forced not to be a damned bigot.

 

[warpus]

He can if it is a kosher restaurant.

This actually happened to me when I first moved to New York.

There was a very famous kosher deli on Broadway in the financial district right next to the famous bull statue called Wolfie's. It doesn't seem to be there any more, or at least I can't google it.

I asked the counterman for a corned beef on rye with swiss cheese, which was the only way I ate corned beef up until that day. He looked at me like I had just insulted him, said "no", and walked away shaking his head. I was so dumbstruck I just left.

When I got back to the office, someone explained to me that it wasn't kosher to combine meat with any dairy product.

I understand having odd religious observances and beliefs, but you don't have to be rude about it! Who's going to remember all of these things? I never heard about this one until now.

"I'm sorry sir, my God prevents me from having meat and dairy touch. It's sort of like having two penises touch, it's just not cool with him. Could I interested you in a salami sandwich with cucumber and mustard instead? *smile*"

Believe what you want, just don't be a jerk about it!

 

[Borachio]

No. It has to be on religious grounds. So the owner would have to claim he thinks his god hates handicapped people.

Doesn't God hate handicapped people? Isn't that why they're handicapped: as a punishment for their sins?

At least, that's the impression I get from the New Testament. (The wages of sin is death. And all that.)

Not that I agree with it, I hasten to add.

 

[NovaKart]

Conservatives are so concerned about this scenario of churches and clergy being forced to participate in same-sex weddings. If they're so concerned about that, why don't they pass a law allowing churches and clergy to opt out of any personal involvement with a same-sex marriage instead of this very broad law that would allow any business to discriminate.

I wonder how this would even work. If a man is really effeminate many people would assume that he's gay but they don't really know. He could plausibly say he's not. I can imagine a situation where a man is told to leave the restaurant and he insists that he's not gay and the staff say that he is and have to try and prove it.

Is there any truth to this fear that churches would have to wed same sex couples in the US? The Catholic Church is allowed to discriminate against divorced couples. I've heard of situations where clergy refused to baptize a child from a mixed faith wedding. Jewish cemeteries can refuse burial to people who don't fit their criteria. I think religious schools can discriminate against staff for many reasons. There was a famous story in the news a year or two ago when a pastor in Louisiana refused to marry a mixed race couple and I didn't hear anything about him facing legal action.

I almost forgot about the representative who said he unknowingly voted for the bill. Even though I'm gay, if I were a Mississippian I think I might prefer a representative who knowingly voted for that bill to someone who voted for it but was too stupid/lazy to even find out what it was about.