stNNES7: Worlds and Empires

[Dachs]

Meh, Xen, why should you care about China anyway? If NK wants to unite it, so be it.

Or did you want to conquer it so early?

Might be difficult, seeing as there are a few things in the way.

 

[Xen]

Meh, Xen, why should you care about China anyway? If NK wants to unite it, so be it.

Or did you want to conquer it so early?

I just dont see why China should be treated any different then Africa would be under the same circumstances.- I dont have any interest in conqoring China; I'm playing the game to make myself a glorious history, and a nation that I myself woudl want to live in; not soem shoddy "conqror the wolrd and make it a living inferno of destruction and misery" that so many (Amon savag ) seemed to enjoy

 

[Toteone]

Yeah... I wish I was better at that.
Hmmm, mebbe someday.

Wish this Amon Savag (I remember him around the forums early on) would NES more.

 

[das]

Meh, Xen. IMHO what NK says goes, as always.

Although I somehow suspect that he was joking.

Then again...

---

"Once, in the lands of Chin, there were great troubles. Steppe nomads raided and looted as they pleased. Irresponsible rulers left the running of their states to the incompetent, corrupt ministers. Taxes rose, and so did misery. Finally, a visionary came from a small village in Chou. Around him gathered the unsatisfied peasants, and a great rebellion took over Chin. The visionary declared, that the rulers must die, and the nomads must die, so that the people may live, and in order for all this to happen, the people of Chin must unite the land, erase the borders and submit to his rule. And with great zeal, the people of Chin carried out his orders..."

NO, I'm not going to start a Chinese rebellion, I have other plans for ze afterlife. Still, its there for pondering.

 

[Xen]

I'm all for what NK dose, generally speaking- but when somthing seems like an ill founded choice, its not like I'm gonna sit back and let it happen; better to make my opinion know, if for no other reason then for NK to get a different view and idea on the same subject; never hurts after all, to put multiple views into your thought before making a firm choice.

 

[Dachs]

Although it may annoy him that we offer suggestions when he wants to update...

 

[Cuivienen]

I just dont see why China should be treated any different then Africa would be under the same circumstances.- I dont have any interest in conqoring China; I'm playing the game to make myself a glorious history, and a nation that I myself woudl want to live in; not soem shoddy "conqror the wolrd and make it a living inferno of destruction and misery" that so many (Amon savag ) seemed to enjoy

Well, China would naturally unite. As many have said before, China's geography and relative homogeneity of cultures even before the Han became dominant lend themselves strongly to a unified nation rather than warring states. In Europe, high mountains divide the continent into segments that each formed a relatively distinct culture early in Europe's history. Even after Roman-Christian culture pervaded Europe, it was still difficult to maintain cross-mountain empires and few nations did.

 

[Oruc]

Neses arnt natural tho

 

[Cuivienen]

Of course not, but this NES has tended towards a united China with Shu and Tong slowly eliminating the other Chinese states, especially now that the Avars are about to wipe out the northern states that had been largely unaffected by Shu and Tong's political maneuverings.

 

[Oruc]

tended towards a united china? well i certainly havent noticed any of that crap, the only thing i can see even remotely close to that is they didnt fight each but spread into none china lands and anyway i thought their was 3 player chinas?

just because china is united in real life doesnt mean it should be in this, its like Siberia always being reserved for Russia and Canada for England the amount of times that happened was annoying

 

[Cuivienen]

tended towards a united china? well i certainly havent noticed any of that crap, the only thing i can see even remotely close to that is they didnt fight each but spread into none china lands and anyway i thought their was 3 player chinas?

just because china is united in real life doesnt mean it should be in this, its like Siberia always being reserved for Russia and Canada for England the amount of times that happened was annoying

Just compare the China of this update to the China of three updates ago and you'll see what I mean.

Shu and Tong are the big ones and Chu is the dark one, but it's NPC. Japan has been very involved in mainland politics, however, so maybe you remembered them.

EDIT: I forgot about Song, sorry Thomander. They've done so little.

 

[Xen]

Well, China would naturally unite. As many have said before, China's geography and relative homogeneity of cultures even before the Han became dominant lend themselves strongly to a unified nation rather than warring states. In Europe, high mountains divide the continent into segments that each formed a relatively distinct culture early in Europe's history. Even after Roman-Christian culture pervaded Europe, it was still difficult to maintain cross-mountain empires and few nations did.

1)I know what your saying; and its a very common view that China is essentially a monolithic cultureal block; however, recent archeological investigations in a china that i snow free to actually look over its most ancient past without threat of it being smashed by another "cultural revolution" has found that Chinese history is a great deal more divided -and bloody- then anyone has realized

2)China in this NES has been traditionally devided into multiple states; perhaps the trend has been towards slow elimnation; but on the other hand, look at the geography; nop actual "chinese" culture has really developed; the Tong (I bleive; the yellow nation tot he south) is based in the hinterlands where the polynesians of pacific island fame have thier begginings; theoretically, that entire nation is culturally Polynesian, and not chinese; the big borwn nation in the west that connects with India? I have a hard tiem beliving it hasnt been deeplly influenced from indian culture simply because of its geography; and similer sentiments go tot he northern, more steppe like even in classi cchinese history, and the north east, beign einfluenced by the similer, but much nuanced Korean and japanese cultures.

the china of this NES dose not have the benfit of a great feudal nation (the Zhou dynasty) to actually bring the classic "hinterlands" of china into a traditon of unified rule

3)its much more kickass to see how it will develop this way.

 

[Oruc]

but azale has quit, school and all that, shame he never got to conquer those dirty chinamen.
wasnt it tommytoon, banalee and alex195 (bah!!) in china i could've have sworn i saw tommy make a post saying "never make a deal with the devil" which was about Xiong-nu redeclaring war

 

[alex994]

nop actual "chinese" culture has really developed; the Tong (I bleive; the yellow nation tot he south) is based in the hinterlands where the polynesians of pacific island fame have thier begginings; theoretically, that entire nation is culturally Polynesian, and not chinese; the big borwn nation in the west that connects with India? I have a hard tiem beliving it hasnt been deeplly influenced from indian culture simply because of its geography; and similer sentiments go tot he northern, more steppe like even in classi cchinese history, and the north east, beign einfluenced by the similer, but much nuanced Korean and japanese cultures.

1. Tong is as Polynesian as Ravenna is Chinese.

2. The big brown nation, Shu, being influenced by India as The Iroqouis is influenced by the Ancient Phonecians.

3. Northern China was in no part "steppe like." I do not believe that Northern China was ever filled with the majority of people owning horses galloping around shooting at animals for food as well as living in animal skin tents.

4. You must say that Korean and Japanese culture were influenced by Northern Easter China, not the other way around.

 

[Xen]

1. Tong is as Polynesian as Ravenna is Chinese.

2. The big brown nation, Shu, being influenced by India as The Iroqouis is influenced by the Ancient Phonecians.

proove it- I've written a great deal on the culture of ravenna distinguishing it, and in particuler, its unique politics out from any other nation; though as far i know, all the players in the roient have only written stories about concited rulers with thier thier grand troubles of being borne to rule a nation and th eproblems that they face, oh what a sham eit is to be born to rule! *cough* *cough* cultures rubs off and assimilates at every oppertunity, and i make no attempt to deny that Ravenna isnt at all clasically Roman- that it has intertwined with it a great deal of illyrian culture with it present from the first stories about the hill fort center of warrior-kings that was the origional estbalishment of ravenna itself. Shu is a giant gateway for Indian culture to enter the classic area of china (somthing that happend historically anyway- Buddah, perhaps jogs your memory?) an dlikewise, its a gateway for that culture that has developed in China into north-east India; dont be offended by the fact "china" never has coem into existence; I'm hardly *****ing about a lack of Rome, am I? this is an alternat ehistory- we play these to make a history different then that which actually happend, and in this cas,e it may very well mean no China.

3. Northern China was in no part "steppe like." I do not believe that Northern China was ever filled with the majority of people owning horses galloping around shooting at animals for food as well as living in animal skin tents.

Ibleive thats wrong; that military colonies were disntictlyl settled inthe north to force the local peoples into a sedentary farming form of living; obviouslly, this is the far northern outskirts, where the far northern nation in this NES are themselves located.

4. You must say that Korean and Japanese culture were influenced by Northern Easter China, not the other way around.

perhaps the nuances of culture escape you? "Chinese' culture in this NES would have influcned them, but they were both very much free to develop thier own cultures; japanese culture, historically, while similer, is in many ways different from the culture of China; in this NES, in the absence of a monolithic cultureal china, i fail to see how the cultureal impact could even be the same as it was historically. Not trying to piss you off- just beign realistic.

 

[alex994]

Shu is a giant gateway for Indian culture to enter the classic area of china (somthing that happend historically anyway- Buddah, perhaps jogs your memory?) an dlikewise, its a gateway for that culture that has developed in China into north-east India; dont be offended by the fact "china" never has coem into existence; I'm hardly *****ing about a lack of Rome, am I? this is an alternat ehistory- we play these to make a history different then that which actually happend, and in this cas,e it may very well mean no China.

I'm hardly offended that what you assume to be "China" never existed since you barely pay attention to the orient at all and assume things that aren't true. China exists as a cultural entity, even if it's not a political one. For example, you assume that Shu serves as a gateway for Indian culture to enter the "classic" center of China while in reality it serves the opposite. Shu, is the greatest center of culture in the world aside from Syria and Armenia, the stats are in agreement with that. To point out the development of Buddhism into China, people originally thought it was another branch of Taoism and treated it that way and also since the country was in a time of turmoil.

Also Kalinga being the native north eastern indian contry that borders Shu, invaded SHu during the Time of the Grand Coalition. Anyone who's studied the temperament of the People living in what you may consider China notice one thing, the people there remember grudges. The differences between Tong, and say Song are similar to the differences between present day people from Shanghai and Guangzhou.

Ibleive thats wrong; that military colonies were disntictlyl settled inthe north to force the local peoples into a sedentary farming form of living; obviouslly, this is the far northern outskirts, where the far northern nation in this NES are themselves located.

That may have been true in real life, however in this nes that didn't happen. Yan, the country, was started with what people would consider a Chinese way of life and as you pointed out before, it's an alternate history.

perhaps the nuances of culture escape you? "Chinese' culture in this NES would have influcned them, but they were both very much free to develop thier own cultures; japanese culture, historically, while similer, is in many ways different from the culture of China; in this NES, in the absence of a monolithic cultureal china, i fail to see how the cultureal impact could even be the same as it was historically. Not trying to piss you off- just beign realistic.

Again, you assume i'm mad because Chinese culture in your eyes is soo different in this nes while the differences are at most miniscule. Japan may have been as much influenced by China then real life, but Korea no doubtly has been influenced by China. Even with the lack of a single unified political system in China Song once ruled half of present day Korea for quite a long time and if that doesn't influence a country then I'm not sure what does in this time and era.

EDIT: and the thing about asking me about evidence that Tong's culture wasn't polynesian? Talks with bannanalee gave me the information i needed, and the fact that they somehow have the same religion and culture as the other Chinese states in the past could have also done something about it...

 

[North King]

The Yue were Polynesian. Tong are not. The two Yue states were crushed due to their own political ambitions that could not be sustained with Shu and Tong around them. It remains to be seen wether a greater Yue rebellion will start up...

Shu is very divided by the mountains in the middle of their nation. The north is the monolithic Chinese culture we all know and love (or hate). The south is ethnically Burmese, with a bit of Thai, and while they are of the Yellow Religion for the most part, they are colored by India in culture. That dissapears in the Pyu or Jade mountains (as they are called in this world) if you're going north. There's a distinct cultural difference (though very small) between Shu and the other Chinese states, and between Song and Tong, but the northern Chinese states are more Song the further north you get, the further southwest, they are Shu.

Potential for a unification still exists, as the nations are all well funded by jade and silk, though silk is liable to disappear soon. The famed salt industries of Song give them considerable wealth, as does the trade that the Tong are so good at... But fortunes, especially for the Tong, won't be very pleasant this turn, methinks.

In short, these few turns *could* be the crucial, pivotal point of Chinese history in this NES. A shame none of the Chinese players sent orders.

 

[alex994]

It slipped all our minds, with the beginning of school for me and uni for thomander.

ANd yes, a huge workload on bannanalee

 

[conehead234]

NK, when I saw that you posted, I thought that you updated. Don't get me all excited like that again.

 

[Cuivienen]

Or just update. That works, too.