Stop the Presses!

[Arakhor]

Meto, of course Latin was the official tongue of the Roman Empire, but Greek was their lingua franca.

As Wikipedia will tell you: A lingua franca (originally Italian for "Frankish language"—see etymology below) is a language systematically used to communicate between persons not sharing a mother tongue, in particular when it is a third language, distinct from both persons' mother tongues.

 

[CMKMStephens]

*battens down in the anachronism proof bunker*

 

[civ_king]

That comment hurt. If you'd kindly point out where I got my history wrong that would be appreciated, and if the second comment is not as ridiculing it would be appreciated even more.

And I might have been simplifying, but I don't really see what is wrong about my statement above. The Eastern empire after the division, as far as I know, was so different from its old self (especially on military concepts) that they are often treated as seperate nations, yes?

They also spoke and wrote nearly entirely in Greek, as the Eastern half has done in the days of Trajan, correct? They were also very greek in philosophy, cuisine, and culture, I believe their life would have been alien to Cincinatus as Persians under Xerxes.


Since the example of Byzantium seems ill-placed (according to what I've been just told) let me cite another, perhaps better example. How about the dynasties of China? The rulers of China changed ethnic groups multiple times, having been conquered by other peoples at certain points in their long history, but eventually those who conquered China became China. The Mongols were little different from the Songs before them, and the Mings that followed did not change the Middle kingdom as much as they'd liked to believe, and the Qing are the ultimate testimony to the fact that all dynasties of China are eventually all the same, for their diplomacy, cultural arrogance, rigid and permeating ethical values, even religious practices all remained unchanged. Yeah, perhaps clothing and hairstyles changed, but the Manchu rulers could not change the Chinese, while slowly China changed them.

Look, China had such an entrenched Culture (Homogeneity) and the Mongols had such a weak culture and Mongol/Chinese was so crazy, the only they could do is Assimilate

Ancient Greece was a fractious bunch of City States and the Byzantine Empire was homogeneous

In 285 Diocletian divided administration to the Eastern and Western segments
The whole Horse/Legionary split occurred over a long time, besides the Roman Empire had extensive cavalry
When the Empire "cracked" so to speak it split along the fault line

Greek was major because (gross simplification) it was BUILT ON GREEK CULTURE!
By 610 most of them spoke Greek so the Emperor was like what the heck, lets recognize that!

also when someone says "you are either [statement 1] OR [statement 2]" it puts emphasis on [statement 1] and the former is more likely than the latter

common mistake, I do it plenty too

also it wasn't my intention to call you a fool, and I apologize for making my statement appear as such,

 

[meto30]

also it wasn't my intention to call you a fool, and I apologize for making my statement appear as such,

Apology accepted.
And I do understand that what I said was an understatement.

However, I still believe Byzantine culture would not have ended up the way it did if the Capital was moved elsewhere. Look at the Hellenistic kingdoms. They all began nearly the same, but after a century they all took on local atmosphere and had differing philosophies and values. So, capital relocation does have a profound effect on culture.

Koreans are also an example of capital relocation leading to cultural shift. Nations of the Korean peninsula moved capitals whenever there was a dynasty change, so to utilize the shift in erasing the remnants of the old dynasty away. The Old Chosuns were seated in a city north of the Abrok river, Way beyond the current North Korean-Chinese border, and their military and social values reflected that fact. However, after the conquest of the peninsula by the Shilla dynasty(with its capital in Gyung-ju in the southern part of the land) the unified Korean kingdom ceased being a cavalry-centered military state that Koreans were before and evolved into an agricultural civilization with a scholar-aristocracy(this was also influenced by Chinese social systems). It is said that before the unification the Koreans, at least those north of the Han river, were very Mongolian in their military and social values, if not in political structure (Koreans had centralized governments since at least 600 bc, probably because they had to contest the land with the Chinese). However after the Shilla, the agricultural element became dominant. This transition culminated in the Confuciousic Caste system of the New Chosusn dynasty, with the scholars on top and Farmer caste right under the aristocracy.


PS: Wasn't the cavalry of the Roman Empire not legionaries but Auxilary contingents? As I recall the cavalry side was deliberately downplayed for the entire history of the Empire. I heard one argument taking this statement further and saying the lack of cavalry was the precise reason Romans could not fight the Parthians, and later, the Huns.

 

[civ_king]

Apology accepted.
And I do understand that what I said was an understatement.

However, I still believe Byzantine culture would not have ended up the way it did if the Capital was moved elsewhere. Look at the Hellenistic kingdoms. They all began nearly the same, but after a century they all took on local atmosphere and had differing philosophies and values. So, capital relocation does have a profound effect on culture.

Koreans are also an example of capital relocation leading to cultural shift. Nations of the Korean peninsula moved capitals whenever there was a dynasty change, so to utilize the shift in erasing the remnants of the old dynasty away. The Old Chosuns were seated in a city north of the Abrok river, Way beyond the current North Korean-Chinese border, and their military and social values reflected that fact. However, after the conquest of the peninsula by the Shilla dynasty(with its capital in Gyung-ju in the southern part of the land) the unified Korean kingdom ceased being a cavalry-centered military state that Koreans were before and evolved into an agricultural civilization with a scholar-aristocracy(this was also influenced by Chinese social systems). It is said that before the unification the Koreans, at least those north of the Han river, were very Mongolian in their military and social values, if not in political structure (Koreans had centralized governments since at least 600 bc, probably because they had to contest the land with the Chinese). However after the Shilla, the agricultural element became dominant. This transition culminated in the Confuciousic Caste system of the New Chosusn dynasty, with the scholars on top and Farmer caste right under the aristocracy.


PS: Wasn't the cavalry of the Roman Empire not legionaries but Auxilary contingents? As I recall the cavalry side was deliberately downplayed for the entire history of the Empire. I heard one argument taking this statement further and saying the lack of cavalry was the precise reason Romans could not fight the Parthians, and later, the Huns.

1) Yes culture changed with Capital, no contention there
2) Korea, uh okay I yield to your superior knowledge
3) yes, they downplayed the auxiliary, but dominance of the Cataphract came after the stirrup

 

[Grathocke]

But Greeks under Roman Empire were just that - minority, one of them. No state identity. Only remains of former glory of ancient greek culture. And i think Byzantine inherited more from Rome in terms of being an Empire rather than Greek, and later on they (Byzantine) became identity of their own, only lightly related to Greece. That's all my imho ofc.

The Byzantines were really a complex blending of the two cultures. I don't think the Greeks had a desire for empire, whereas the Romans did. Not initially, of course, but as their power grew, so did their appetite. But the Eastern Empire did become more and more Greek as time went by. They were removed from Rome by its decline and fall, and a large portion of their subjects were Greeks. Interestingly enough, they referred to themselves as Romans until the very end, though they had less and les in common with their namesakes as time progressed.

 

[Grathocke]

Meto, of course Latin was the official tongue of the Roman Empire, but Greek was their lingua franca.

As Wikipedia will tell you: A lingua franca (originally Italian for "Frankish language"—see etymology below) is a language systematically used to communicate between persons not sharing a mother tongue, in particular when it is a third language, distinct from both persons' mother tongues.

Partially true. If I remember correctly, they used a dialect called "Koin" which was a simplified Greek. Specifically used in North Africa, the Levant, Greece, and Asia Minor. Maybe it was more extant, but I seem to remember those areas. It was used by merchants especially.

 

[Afforess]

Sorry about my lack of activity recently; I'm nearing finals, so I'm rather busy. I'll have lots of free time after the first week of may.

If I have time this weekend, I'll do a 1.73 release.

 

[Arakhor]

Oooh. Cooolll

 

[NBAfan]

Sorry about my lack of activity recently; I'm nearing finals, so I'm rather busy. I'll have lots of free time after the first week of may.

If I have time this weekend, I'll do a 1.73 release.

That is fine, school > Civ.

 

[os79]

That is good . I am presently in Revision 122 game. Startlingly stable and playable at Noble level. The AI expand slowly but systematically. I don't know how hyper-aggressive players will win. But I know I will win but not easily because about 65% of them are more than 5 sized. After I'm ready to all out and invade the lands around me, I hope to have good fights on my hands .

So, yeah, in my alpha testing so far, Revision 122 is the best possible. Of course, there will be small details that Afforess and the rest of you will catch but that is the nature of beta testing, yes?

Have fun with studying, Afforess .

 

[NBAfan]

Oh dear, it looks like Civ 5 will have DLC!

There is a special version that costs more $ for a Babylonian civ!

 

[Afforess]

Oh dear, it looks like Civ 5 will have DLC!

There is a special version that costs more $ for a Babylonian civ!

I don't really care. I never cared about the Civ's in Civilization, they are just flavor. If I was play with team Red, and my enemy was team Blue, the game would be 99.9% the same.

DLC won't work long for Civ5 either, because once modders start creating new civs, Firaxis will have to compete with free content. The only way DLC can work is if Firaxis creates unique content, like enabling vassals, or espionage.

 

[Flay]

DLC ??? what is it ?

 

[Iceciro]

Yeah, but to my conspiracy minded mind it does explain why some features are left out of the current game: like espionage. But with the MP support and steamworks, I'm not sure how they expect the online to not be fragmented and dead if such things are DLC.

 

[NBAfan]

DLC ??? what is it ?

I forgot what is stands for. It is when a game devloper releases small content packs and charges for them. Basicly it is paying for small mods.

I don't really care. I never cared about the Civ's in Civilization, they are just flavor. If I was play with team Red, and my enemy was team Blue, the game would be 99.9% the same.

DLC won't work long for Civ5 either, because once modders start creating new civs, Firaxis will have to compete with free content. The only way DLC can work is if Firaxis creates unique content, like enabling vassals, or espionage.

As long as it is just civs then it should be fine.


I hope you are right about them not doing DLC. If they do though, the modding community will be ruined.

 

[konradcabral]

I think DLC is DownLoadable Content.

 

[Arakhor]

It is and, as everyone knows, the fans make far and away much better mods than the designers could ever hope to do. This is a fact of limited professional time & resources competing with near-unlimited amateur manpower, time and enthusiasm.

 

[i_diavolorosso]

I hope they don't scrap off religion just to put it in a 10$ DLC

 

[Elucidus]

I have a bad feeling