Sub Saharan origins for pharaohs (new DNA studies)
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TheLastOne36
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Why can't Afrocentric anthropologists/scientists/whatever latch on to Ethiopian civilization, which IMO is as impressive as various other fertile crescent origin civilizations, but is under-valued and under-studied by today's academia? It really could use some attention too given how little researched it is despite the plethora of available information.
Proving Egypt was black seems like a waste of time and doesn't offer anything of value to our knowledge or understanding of ancient Egyptian civilization.
Proving Egypt was black seems like a waste of time and doesn't offer anything of value to our knowledge or understanding of ancient Egyptian civilization.
Those "Afrocentric scientist" were simply correcting a racist Eurocentric lie that has been allowed to persist through pure prejudice for centuries. The most famous of which was Cheikh Anta Diop. During the infamous 1974 Unesco Conference he and his assistant Obenga wiped the floor with the World's leading Egyptologist in every single category regarding this issue. Those racist Egyptologist (yes they were racist) of that time were expecting ignorance as usual as a conclusion, and instead got an intellectual ass kicking for which NONE had a rebuttal for. All that they could say at the end was that Diop and Obenga were "well prepared". Of course through sheer numbers their racist ignorance prevailed and it was concluded that Egypt has always been "mixed race", or in other words they refused to accept the clear fact that the civilization sprang from black Africans (which is noted in the Oxford citation cited previously).
For Diop's persistence on this issue he was reviled by many Western scholars at the time, and much his work was baselessly rejected by the mainstream. Interestingly enough every single one of his points regarding the ancient Egyptians (with the exception of his use of the biological concept of race) has in one way or another been validated by much more recent research. He was also recently honored by French scholars for his work.
No you said that "race" did not matter to Egyptologist, and both of my encyclopedic references made it clear that the race issue has always garnered heavy attention by Egyptologist even to this day.
Link to video.
Here is leading Egyptologist Sally Ann Ashton in her lecture at Manchester a couple of years ago where she discusses the race issue and displays the reluctance by many to accept the fact that the ancient Egyptians were black. Also the name of this conference was "EGYPT IN IT'S AFRICAN CONTEXT". Hence correcting the damage done by racist Eurocentric BS.
It means that you didn't know that anthropology was a field in human biology....
You insinuated that the biological research that I presented showing early ancient Egyptians and Nubians to be indistinguishable was useless because you heard that the Egyptians used a word meaning "black"to describe the Nubians...YOU WERE WRONG!
Amnesia seriously? The issue is apparently so serious that you are resorting to the denial defense mechanism...WOW!
Let Basil Davidson put it in context for you:
Link to video.
The Neolithic, Nilotic, primarily Nilo-Saharan speaking populations of the ancient Sahara were found to have a phenotype (based on their skeletal remains) consistent with black Africans. The pre-dynastic Egyptians were found to have a phenotype (based on their skeletal remains) consistent with black Africans. Those ancient Saharan brought cattle domestication onto the Nile Valley.
Tropically ADAPTED:
Who do the ancient Egyptians group with? What do those groups look like? What range of hues are their skin? We have African Americans, Melanesians, and Pygmies. Why would the ancient Egyptians somehow be able to defy ecological principal by not having skin tones within the range of these other tropically adapted populations?
Oh and these are what Arizona Indians looked like if you're wondering why they are somewhat intermediate:
Dark skin tones.... Oh and you also didn't have a thing to say about the skin cell analysis of the Egyptian mummies being found to be "packed with melanin" and "of Negroid origin".
Well this particular question shows that you don't really don't know much about Egypt. If you did then you would know that southern Egyptians are STILL generally black Africans. Here let a modern southern Egyptian tell you from his own mouth:
Link to video.
Recent genetic evidence (within the last two years) has indicated something a little more interesting then what this man is saying. Modern Egyptians are predominantly E1b1 (Sub Saharan East African), but last year it was found that pre-dynastic Nile Valley remains were predominantly comprised on haplogroup A, which indicates that Nilotic Africans (hence ancient Saharans) dominated the Nile Valley during state formation. The question is where did all of that haplogroup A and B (also Nilotic) go? It is still found in high frequencies in many modern Egyptian populations (Egypt is by no means a monolithic nation) but that does not account for the bulk of it.
Says who? Many populations across Sub Saharan Africa claim an origins in ancient Egypt and oddly enough are able to back their claims through undeniable religious, cultural, and linguistic (hundreds upon hundreds of actual ancient Egyptian words):
link
The primary region believed to be source of a back migration from Egypt is the Upper Nile (South Sudan) and the Great Lakes region of Africa (Nilotic). Recent genetic evidence supports these claims:
The closest matches are with haplogroup A carrying populations and even E1b1a carriers across other regions of Sub Saharan Africa. Why aren't modern Egyptians or other North Africans the closest populations to the ancient Egyptians? Why are the peoples of this region also the closest peoples culturally and religiously to the ancient Egyptians?
Link to video.
The genetic evidence indicates that the other African lineage which predated the Saharan migration onto the Nile (E1b1) for one reason or another became the dominant lineage on the Nile Valley. These black Africans (like the man in the video above) were the ones the primarily began to assimilate with those migrating populations from the Mediterranean:
You claimed that admixture was unlikely and my sources validate that it was in fact the case. Also keep in mind that this is prior to the Arab invasion of 700 AD which drastically altered the biological makeup of the entire North African region.
Another funny argument. Do tell who do you think inherited the knowledge of the ancient Egyptians, because it sure as Hell wasn't their partial descendants living in Egypt today. The people who mostly likely inherited the bulk of their knowledge were the Greeks and Romans. Are you going to claim that Greeks and Romans are the biological descendants of the ancient Egyptians? You claim that there were no other African civilization comparable to ancient Egypt at that time:
Ancient Ghana (Dar Tichitt-2000-800 BC):
(Don't think that anything was going on in Europe at this time btw).
...How would you know that? 90% of the African continent has yet to be excavated and yet year after year more and more is coming out of the continent. Check out the new excavations from South Africa just last year.
That's interesting, because from what recent research indicates Europeans were hunters and gathers until black African migrants (The Natufanians) migrated up the Middle East and into Europe introducing agriculture and likely their language to the continent's inhabitants:
Which is also funny. You insinuate that ancient Egypt could not have been black because of you perceive as a lack of technologies across Sub Saharan Africa, so that must mean that the Mayans and the Aztecs could not have been Native Americans because the bulk of Native Americans were hunters and gatherers?
You say that but you ignore this:
Yale.edu
Why do Europeans and their New World descendants give a damn about if Africans and their descendants show interest in an ancient African civilization? Why are you so worried about us? Do Europeans care so much about Egypt today, because Western scholars for centuries tried to convince the world that ancient Egypt was a white civilization?
... I mean the horsehockeys already proved and has been obvious for centuries:
Moderator Action: Infracted for language - please don't swear here.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
"Just think," de Volney declared incredulously, "that this race of Black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, and even the use of speech! Just imagine, finally, that it is in the midst of people who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery, and questioned whether Black men have the same kind of intelligence as whites!
"In other words the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same stock as all the autochthonous peoples of Africa and from the datum one sees how their race, after some centuries of mixing with the blood of Romans and Greeks, must have lost the full blackness of its original color but retained the impress of its original mould."
M. Constantine de Volney, Travels through Syria and Egypt in the Years 1783, 1784, and 1785 (London: 1787), p. 80-83.
The issue lies with white westerners who are reluctant (to say the least) to acknowledge this fact, and have tried for centuries to distort the truth on this matter for childish, petty, racist reasons. To think that some people actually have to gaul to criticize blacks for calling this BS:
And to even deny that the sentiments above are at the root of this lie is utterly ridiculous.
TheLastOne36
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Since when do afro-centric anthropologists or w/e have to be black? 
Anyway, I am just saying I wish that this energy was focused on Ethiopia.
Anyway, I am just saying I wish that this energy was focused on Ethiopia.
Chris Rock is black, in case you hadn't noticed...
Racist theories - and history as a scientific discipline, as well as egyptology - only emerged in the (late) 19th century. Which, incidentally, would explain the emergence of Eurocentrism in history around 1900.
Why was this Unesco conference infamous? And instead of using non-descriptive adjectives, it would be far more informative if you even only hinted at what specifically was being discussed. Your conclusion is, again, unwarranted: if Egyptians were of mixed race, that would be an actual confirmation of black origin.
Biologically speaking, there is no concept of race, as mentioned earlier. That a scientist should include such a vague notion in his theories is seriously disqualifying. You say, however, he has more recently been honored; it would be interesting to know for which parts of his work.
Again, that is incorrect. What I said was that race isn't (and shouldn't be, ofcourse) part of eggyptology. The fact that it has been - both by Euro- and Afrocentrists - distracts from egyptology as a scientific discipline. (Race isn't a scientific concept, so it shouldn't be part of egyptology, even if it has in the past.)
Seriously, even assuming that ancient Egyptians were black, what would it change?
Forensic anthropology is, anthropology in general is a social science.
Not quite. To ancient Egyptians they themselves were quite distinct from Nubians (or Ethiopians for that matter). And I insinuated nothing.
Is that supposed to answer my question? As it appears you are just evading it.
I'm not following this. How does one determine the language of extinct peoples that have left no written records exactly?
Are you saying that non-black people living for milennia in the tropics aren't adapted to their environs?
Afro-Americans only appear from the 16th century onwards, as far as I know.
Oh and these are what Arizona Indians looked like if you're wondering why they are somewhat intermediate:
Those Indians aren't black. (It's a black-and-white picture, so obviously only shows shades of grey.)
Oh and you also didn't have a thing to say about the skin cell analysis of the Egyptian mummies being found to be "packed with melanin" and "of Negroid origin".
Not being a biologist, what would you have me comment on that?
On the contrary, it shows you can't discern a hypothetical question from a practical one.
Which might show the extent of Egyptian influence. It doesn't prove those populations all descended from Egypt, which is highly unlikely and lacks any solid proof. (And again, I was providing a theoretical solution.)
Not quite: that would show (Southern) Egyptians are related to people in South Sudan and the Great Lakes region.
Again you are confusing cultural concepts with biological ones. How does Sub-Saharan peoples being culturally and religiously closest to ancient Egyptians even connect with genetic evidence?
For one, it seems unlikely that a non-black minority assimilates a black majority (following your claim). Compare the whole of the Arab peninsula to Egypt: it has a significantly lower population. And the Arab invasions weren't mass migrations: they were armies.
Another funny argument. Do tell who do you think inherited the knowledge of the ancient Egyptians, because it sure as Hell wasn't their partial descendants living in Egypt today. The people who mostly likely inherited the bulk of their knowledge were the Greeks and Romans. Are you going to claim that Greeks and Romans are the biological descendants of the ancient Egyptians?
You claim that there were no other African civilization comparable to ancient Egypt at that time:
Ancient Ghana (Dar Tichitt-2000-800 BC):
Now compare what you just posted to the geometrical perfection of a pyramid. As I said, it doesn't compare: by comparison such structures are primitive in the extreme. Which was my point.
Again, you are assuming these prehistoric migrations are from black people. But in fact all human migration across the Earth is from Africa. It's where the human race originated.
Again, the insinuation is yours. In case it wasn't clear, I was referring to the lack of a agricultural civilization (which is what ancient Egypt was) in all of Australia and New Guinea. There's also the Mound civilization amids the plains of Eastern North America. And as a rule, an agricultural civilization can support a larger population than a hunter-gatherer one. So how do you know that the majority of the American population were hunter-gatherers?
That conclusion is unwarranted. For one, Ancient Egypt's key quality was that it was an agricultural civilization, not a pastoral one. For another, cultural relations cannot be identified with genetic relations. But even ignoring this, it only says something about the Nubian civilization, not about Egypt. (In fact, it suggests a link between Nubians and Sub-Saharans. But that is hardly surprising, is it?)
By the way, Southern Egyptians being primarily black today may very well be linked to the Nubian dynasty period. But as you well know, that only happened in the later history of ancient Egypt.
JEELEN said:
JEELEN said:
JEELEN said:
JEELEN said:
JEELEN said:
JEELEN said:
Hmmm. Asante90 must be wrong because all those Egyptology books and Egyptologists disagree with him!
JEELEN said:
Hmmm. Asante90 must be wrong because JEELEN couldn't find a reference of this racial theory in the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt! His citation of Mithen and Oliver both of whom are noted Egyptologists seals the deal!
Game, set, match Asante90!
Hmmm. Except neither Mithen or Oliver are Egyptologists and the works cited are general histories, not specialist monographs. As to the "Oxford issue", Asasnte90's citation of the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Volume 3 (shown below) checks out. JEELEN's reaction to the citation is also amusing:
JEELEN said:
The full text uses the current tense and concludes:
...by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as "black" while acknowledged the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans.
The next entry is entitled "Origins of Egyptians in Northeastern Africa" and opens with:
In spite of the evidence against scientific race, by Egyptologist and Afrocentric scholars often continue attempts to define Egyptians as members of an essential racial category, usually attempting to either link them to a supposed "Caucasoid" or "Negriod/Africiod" phenotype.
The end result of this is that Asante90 is entirely correct in suggesting that there is an active debate about the race of Ancient Egyptians. Granted the full entry argues against his position but still he's entirely right in arguing that Eurocentric views are still a "thing" in Egyptology even if the article argues that most scholars have moved past primordial views of race. Having said all that, JEELEN is no more right than Asasnte90. Both entries support the view that Egyptians were "black" Africans from Northeastern Africa. The "Origins of Egyptians in Northeastern Africa" also states that: physical anthropology has demonstrated fundamental continuity of ancient and modern Egyptian populations which puts pay to this nonsense.
JEELEN said:
On a related issue, how the last paragraph of the above reconciles with the below is beyond me:
JEELEN said:
Egyptology actually began with Napoleon's invasion of Egypt during the late 18th century. That exert attributed to De'Volney in my last post was written when he accompanied Napoleon on his conquest. The racist notions of white supremacy/black inferiority as he details were had already marred the study of ancient Egypt as early as that time.
The notions of Eurocentrism/white supremacy came about when Europeans mass produced guns from Chinese gun powder and colonized much of the World with their weaponry. This happened a couple of centuries prior to the 1900's...
The conference was on the General History of Africa with a particular focus on the peopling of ancient Egypt and the deciphering of the Meroitic script. I believe that in my last post that I went into detail as to why it stood out amongst the other conferences. Two African scholars (which was rare at the time for actual Africans to have a say on African history) presented painstakingly researched arguments to a reluctant group of conservative Egyptologist who had no serious rebuttals to any of their points.
You do realize that Diop comes from the older generation of anthropologist when the concept of race was still widely accepted in biology. Trying to push his arguments aside for that reason alone means that almost all research up until recently on ancient Egypt should be ignored. Do contemporary scholars however brush older research aside for this reason:
Obviously not.
Dr. Mario Beatty conducts a lecture on Diop's legacy:
Link to video.
Your silliness has been put on display by Masada Your denial persist:
link
You are ridiculous with your blatant lying...You said:
I responded by stating that you are indenial and you are evading each and every piece of biological evidence confirming that the ancient Egyptians were black Africans. I then re-presented this study:
ARE YOU GOING TO ADDRESS THESE BIOLOGICAL FINDINGS OR KEEP PRETENDING THAT IT AND THE OTHER STUDIES HAVE NOT BEEN PRESENTED?
Based on archaeological evidence and the traits of modern populations. It's pretty much an accepted fact that the peoples of the ancient Sahara were primarily Nilo-Saharan speaking Africans and to a lesser extent Niger-Congo speakers:
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food.....
During the long era between about 10,000 and 6000 B.C., new kinds of southern influences diffused into Egypt. During these millennia, the Sahara had a wetter climate than it has today, with grassland or steppes in many areas that are now almost absolute desert. New wild animals, most notably the cow, spread widely in the eastern Sahara in this period.
One of the exciting archeological events of the past twenty years was the discovery that the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated these cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The societies involved in this momentous development included Afrasians and neighboring peoples whose languages belonged to a second major African language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982). The earliest domestic cattle came to Egypt apparently from these southern neighbors, probably before 6000 B.C., not, as we used to think, from the Middle East. (Christopher Ehret, "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 25-27)
Of course as you seem to agree with, the later migration of Nilotic Saharans onto the Nile Valley was what started Nile Valley civilizations.
Yeah that's what I'm saying. Obtaining tropical limb proportions (or any other climatic adaption) takes more than a "milenia" it takes 15,000 years to a new environment:The most tropically adapted populations are those who originated and remained in the tropical climate zones (most Africans and southeast Asians/aboriginal Australians). All of which have the longest limb proportions and the darkest skin tone ranges out of the all of the World's populations. The ancient Egyptians were tropically adapted in the same fashion as most Africans, which means according to ecological principal that they too had dark skin tones varying within the range of those other tropically adapted populations.
So confirmation that this jump went right over your head! I was not saying that they were "black" but they had INTERMEDIATE limb proportions and subsequently have relatively dark skin when compared to those cold adapted populations towards the bottom of that chart. Hence ecological principal.
Is it really that hard to comprehend? When the skin cell skins of those Egyptian mummies were recently examined they were found to be "PACKED WITH MELANIN" which was indicated of their "NEGROID ORIGIN". Your earlier claims that there is no basis for me to comment on the skin color of the ancient Egyptians is therefore false. The ancient Egyptian population generally had tropical limb proportions and the mummies that have been tested have been found to have skin pigmentation consistent with black Africans. What now in my argument could you possibly be disputing at this point? Which makes sense, However please explain why according to so many scholars does the closest resemblance of ancient Egypt culture and religion lay with the Nilotic populations of the Upper Nile and the Great Lakes rather than with the peoples who reside within Egypt? The revelation of these cultural affinities is nothing new:
or
link
Why do the remote peoples of this random region of inner Africa claim to have migrated from this region and have undeniably close cultural affinities with EARLY ancient Egyptians? Are they lying?
You say this but you ignore the genetic evidence JUST presented to you showing that the closest matches to the ancient Egyptians were A carrying Nilotic population of the Great Lakes region.
Why only southern Egyptians? Can you explain?
I am pointing out the PARALLEL evidence. You have clear cultural/religious/linguistic similarities all noted by various scholars and you have biological evidence both genetic and anthropological verifying those non biological relationships. Put the pieces of the puzzle together and what does this indicate?
Why would it be unlikely? What do you have to say about the biological evidence confirming this "claim" to be true..obviously nothing because you keep avoiding addressing that evidence. What you have is a mosaic of various types black Africans with the Nilotic African having the predominant presence on the Nile Valley during state formation. Overtime the anthropological evidence indicates stark distinctions between early and late/modern Egyptian series, with a gaining of affinity towards non Africans:
What part of this do you not agree with?
So you're claiming that the Arab conquest of North Africa characterized by the haplogroup J marker (the second largest frequency after E in Northern Africa) had no significant biological impact on those local population
The genetic and anthropological evidence both say that it did.
You say that the ancient Egyptians who built those pyramids could not have been black because according to you there is no other structure in Africa that compare to it's sophistication. Let me ask you this then, what in the Hell in ancient Europe, or Asia compares to the pyramids...I can't think of any man made structure on the Eurasian continent that cannot be replicated by modern ingenuity (as the pyramids were attempted). Then please explain warrants your scrutiny of the black African argument based on this notion.
Are you blind or are you just trying to be deceptive? Did I not just present a recent study which found those migrants who brought agriculture into Europe to be black Africans? You did not a thing about those findings or the numerous studies which cited within that study which supports that scenario. If this is your "debating tactic" then it is very sad.
What is your point?
Basically admitting that you don't even know what you're about:
Mesacc.edu
Most Native Americans at least in North America according to this source were hunters and gatherers. According to your logic that must mean that the Mayans and Aztecs were not Native Americans because they managed to create relatively sophisticated civilizations while their neighbors did not.
Maria Gatto of Yale vs JELEEN Civfantatics...I'm going with Gatto and that's all that needs to be said on this.
Case and point on why I'm not paying your claims too much mind any longer. The 75 year Nubian rule over Egypt was not accompanied by a migration of Nubians into Egypt.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
TheLastOne36 said:
Exactly. I am quite sure that the main colours of ancient Egypt were always yellow and azure:
https://www.google.pl/search?q=Egip...CoadO4GAgZgG&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=611
https://www.google.pl/search?q=Nil&...KMjYPNP9gLAP&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=611
cachibatches
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 26, 2013
- Messages
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The ancient Egyptians were virtually identical to the moderns. They were (are) a mixed race with heavy Eurasian input from various migrations in the Paleolithic and Neolithic. There were of course African genotypes, but phenotypically, they more resembled middle easterners because, or course, Egypt is not tropical. Every genetic study ever performed, some very recent, confirm this. The commonly stated idea that the gene pool was altered due to migrations of Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, etc, is nonsense. Many studies do, however, demonstrate that they have been darkened a bit from the Arab slave trade and the tens of millions of black African women that came through.
VARIOUS DNA STUDIES PROVING EURASIAN ADMIXUTRE IN ANCIENT EGYPTIANS:
Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00057.x/full
Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow (Krings et al. 1999), and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period (Macaulay et al. 1999).
Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.-
Bosch
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/a...frica-evidence-from-classical-genetic-markers
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.
Near eastern neolithic genetic input in a small oasis of the Egyptian Western Desert.
Am J Phys Anthropol.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19425100
Notwithstanding signs of expected genetic drift, we still found clear genetic evidence of a strong Near Eastern input that can be dated into the Neolithic. This is revealed by high frequencies and high internal variability of several mtDNA lineages from haplogroup T. The whole genome sequencing strategy and molecular dating allowed us to detect the accumulation of local mtDNA diversity to 5,138 +/- 3,633 YBP. Similarly, theY-chromosome gene pool reveals high frequencies of the Near Eastern J1
The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations
JR LUIS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/
"Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that both the Levantine corridor and the Horn of Africa served, repeatedly, as migratory corridors between Africa and Eurasia. We have begun investigating the roles of these passageways in bidirectional migrations of anatomically modern humans, by analyzing 45 informative biallelic markers as well as 10 microsatellite loci on the nonrecombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY) in 121 and 147 extant males from Oman and northern Egypt, respectively. The present study uncovers three important points concerning these demic movements: (1) The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. (2) In contrast, the Horn of Africa appears to be of minor importance in the human migratory movements between Africa and Eurasia represented by these chromosomes, an observation based on the frequency distributions of E3b*-M35 (no known downstream mutations) and M173. (3) The areal diffusion patterns of G-M201, J-12f2, the derivative M173 haplogroups, and M2 suggest more recent genetic associations between the Middle East and Africa, involving the Levantine corridor and/or Arab slave routes. Affinities to African groups were also evaluated by determining the NRY haplogroup composition in 434 samples from seven sub-Saharan African populations. Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component"
"Synthetic maps of Africa". The History and Geography of Human Genes.
Cavalli-Sforza.
http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
The gradient is clearly rooted in the relatively ancient presence of Caucasoids in a Northern strip along the Mediterranean and in additions from West Asia, which are visible in the second and third components....the C gene shows a clear North-South gradient, being frequent amongst Caucasoids and almost absent in sub-Sahara Africa. THERE ARE PEAKS IN EGYPT AND IN NORTHWESTERN AFRICA
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
BrennaHenn
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe.
Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in northeastern Africa Manni
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495079
"In conclusion, our analyses have identified a genetic regional continuity between the northeastern part of Africa (Egypt), the Middle East, and southern Europe. In agreement with the ethnohistorical connections between NE Africa and the Middle East, the genetic data confirm that Egypt, occupying an intermediate position along these routes, has been an important contact zone between the three continents."
The emerging tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: a synthesis of control-region sequences and RFLPs.
Am. J. Hum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377722/
We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs, from which it diverged approximately 50,000 years ago.
Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21472/abstract
Human population movements in North Africa have been mostly restricted to an east-west direction due to the geographical barriers imposed by the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea. Although these barriers have not completely impeded human migrations, genetic studies have shown that an east-west genetic gradient exists. However, the lack of genetic information of certain geographical areas and the focus of some studies in parts of the North African landscape have limited the global view of the genetic pool of North African populations. To provide a global view of the North African genetic landscape and population structure, we have analyzed ∼2,300 North African mitochondrial DNA lineages (including 269 new sequences from Libya, in the first mtDNA study of the general Libyan population). Our results show a clinal distribution of certain haplogroups, some of them more frequent in Western (H, HV0, L1b, L3b, U6) or Eastern populations (L0a, R0a, N1b, I, J) that might be the result of human migrations from the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe. Despite this clinal pattern, a genetic discontinuity is found in the Libyan/Egyptian border, suggesting a differential gene flow in the Nile River Valley. Finally, frequency of the post-LGM subclades H1 and H3 is predominant in Libya within the H sequences, highlighting the magnitude of the LGM expansion in North Africa. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2011. © 2011 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals
Federico Sánchez-Quinto
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047765
The results of the f4 ancestry ratio test (Table 2 and Table S1) show that North African populations vary in the percentage of Neandertal inferred admixture, primarily depending on the amount of European or Near Eastern ancestry they present (Table 1). Populations like North Morocco and Egypt, with the highest European and Near Eastern component (~40%), have also the highest amount of Neandertal ancestry (~60–70%)....Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations.
Genetic Variation of 15 autosomal STR loci in Upper (Southern) Egyptians
Ohmran
Local comparisons between Upper Egyptians were carried out with other ethnic groups in Egypt, based on frequency and molecular data. No differences were observed in comparison with a general Caucasian population from Cairo in any of the nine loci compared or with Egyptian Christians from Cairo…Multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) based on pair-wise FST genetic distances of Upper Egyptian and other diverse global populations. OCE, Oceanian; ME, Middle Eastern; NAF, North African; EAS, East Asian; SSA, sub-Saharan African; UEGY, Upper Egyptian; SAS, South Asian; EUR, European. The figure shows that Oceania and American populations are very distant from Upper Egyptians (marked by a grey triangle) and other populations. The Upper Egyptian population is closer to the Middle Eastern, North African, South Asian and European populations than others. (Genetic variation of 15 autosomal STR loci in Upper (Southern) Egyptians, Omran et al 2008.)
DNA STUDY PROVING MODERN EGYPTIANS 90% GENETICALLY IDENTICAL TO ANCIENTS:
PROOF Modern Egyptians descend from Ancient Egyptians -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz50_nx8UDg
STUDIES SHOWING THAT SUB SAHRAN AFRICA DNA- NOT EURASIAN- HAS INCREASED IN MODERN TIMES- SOME ALSO CONTAIN DATA ON EURASIAN DNA
Research on ancient DNA in the Near East
Mateusz Baca
http://www.scribd.com/doc/26068943/Baca-Molak-2008-DNA-Near-East
To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.
mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
C. Fox, 1997
The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26•7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68•7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
Mitochondrial DNA Research in the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt
Alison M. GraverMolecular genetic research is being conducted as part of the Dakhleh Oasis Project (DOP), an international and multi-disciplinary research initiative in the western desert of Egypt. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is being analyzed from both ancient human skeletal remains associated with the Roman period town of Kellis (100 to 450 AD) and contemporary inhabitants of the Dakhleh Oasis. The primary objectives of this research are to derive paleogenetic information about the inhabitants of ancient Kellis, and to develop a picture of change over time within this desert oasis. Preliminary mtDNA restriction site data and control region sequence variability suggest significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and modern oasis populations
mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?
Krings
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707631826
To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north.
GENETIC STUDIES ON OTHER AFRICAN GROUPS PROVING BACK MIGRATION
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa Arredi
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1216069/
"We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East."... that most of the rest fell into haplogroup U6 (Salas et al. 2002), which perhaps originated in the Near East and spread into North Africa ~30 thousand years (KY) ago (KYA)
Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography
Nicole Maca-Meyer
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15
World-wide phylogeographic distribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6. We report here a more detailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling successive expansions that affected not only Africa but neighboring regions such as the Near East, the Iberian Peninsula and the Canary Islands.
The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa.
Olivieri A
Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Their arrival temporally overlaps with the event(s) that led to the peopling of Europe by modern humans and was most likely the result of the same change in climate conditions that allowed humans to enter the Levant, opening the way to the colonization of both Europe and North Africa
Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Abstract
Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.
Study showing it difficult to find sub-Saharan DNA in modern Egyptians
Genetic variation and population structure of Sudanese populations as indicated by 15 Identifiler sequence-tagged repeat (STR) loci
PCA indicated that the Egyptian, Coptic, Somali, and to some extent the Nubian groups form genetically distinct population...the Somali population is of both Eurasian and Sub Saharan African origin, as suggest5ed by a recent study, potentially explaining the differentiation of this population from some East African groups, although many of the Sudansese populations, including the Arabs and the Beja, may also have mixed Eurasian and Sub-Saharan origin
Babiker 2011
Brief Communication: Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt Lucotte
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12687584
"As for mtDNA (Krings et al., 1999), the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings et al. (1999) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan.
It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200–3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991–1785 B.C.), and more permanently during the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490–1437 B.C.). The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730–655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt."
STUDY SHOWING BODY LENGHTS ARE NOT TROPICAL, BUT INTERMEDIATE, AND PROBABLY SO DUE TO PHENOTYPICAL DEVELOPMENT
Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide
Michelle H. Raxter
http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/vi...xter 2011"
 Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to
higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body
breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and
Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-
Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length
AFROCENTRISTS USUALLY CITE DR. KEITA, WHO IS NOT A GENETICIST AND HAS DONE NO ORIGINAL GENETICS WORK. IN ANY EVENT, HIS WORK DOES NOT SUPPORT THEIR POSITION. WHAT DR KEITA ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT THE RACE OF ANCIENT EGYPTIANS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZssWb4MmGM
QUOTES FROM OTHER STUDIES I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND IN ENTIRETY. PLEASE HELP IF YHOU CAN.
The M1 and U6 haplogroups originated simultaneously in Western Asia, and spread together with modern humans into Northern Africa. These early populations may represent the root stock of the early settlers/inhabitants of the Eastern Sahara who were subsequently to people the Nile valley and build one of the first organized city states...the Egyptian Pharaonic empire
Aubrey et at 2008
Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times. Linguistic research suggests that the Afro-asiatic phylum of languages could have originated and extended with these Caucasians.
Maca-Meyer et al 2003
Afro-Asiatic was introduced into Africa along with immigrant farmers and herdsmen from the near East 10,000 to 7,000 years ago.
Turner 2008
Indigenous North Africans are genetically quite distinct from Sub-Saharan Africans and this difference is reflected in their lighter skin and European/Middle Eastern physical features. We have previously suggested, on the basis of the distribution of the mtDNA type M1 that North Africans are largely descended from a back migration into Africa within the last 2000 to 15,000 years, resettling the temporarily lush Sahara and spreading the Afro-Asiatic language family.
Forrester 2007
These new colonizers of North Africa were of Caucasian surface phenotype. Then a second wave of afro-Asiatic expansion exploded from the Palestine Syriac center (the Afro-Asiatic homeland) probably for reasons associated with the genesis of agriculture, which would locate the expanison at about 10,000 BP. The new expansion into North Africa again virtually covered up the entire area of the first Afro-Asiatic North Africa settlement
Chin 2007
The first M1 backflow into Africa dated around 30,000 ya, is co-incidental with a harsh glacial period which suggests that this human retreat to Africa could be forced by climatic conditions...the northwestern African M1c and the probable central M1b expansions are co-incidental with the Iberomaurusian and Capsian industries
Gonzales et al 2007
aDNA anaylsis was possible to uncover the genetic heritage of prehistoric man (Iberomaurusian) from the Taforalt groto in Morocco (13,000 yeas BP) consisting of a North African and a Eurasian component. The absence of sub-sahara gentic polymorphisms suggested that Taforalt individuals did not originate from the sub-saharan region.
Kefi 2011
The near Eastern Haplogroups J and T (and probably K) appear to be concentrated more towards the East, mirroring the higher densities of U6, H, and V in the West. These may reflect the spread of the Neolithic into North Africa from the Levant
Pereira 2010
The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of race is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
"the theory that the badarian originated in the south is no longer accepted" (shaw, 2003)
VARIOUS DNA STUDIES PROVING EURASIAN ADMIXUTRE IN ANCIENT EGYPTIANS:
Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00057.x/full
Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow (Krings et al. 1999), and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period (Macaulay et al. 1999).
Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.-
Bosch
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/a...frica-evidence-from-classical-genetic-markers
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.
Near eastern neolithic genetic input in a small oasis of the Egyptian Western Desert.
Am J Phys Anthropol.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19425100
Notwithstanding signs of expected genetic drift, we still found clear genetic evidence of a strong Near Eastern input that can be dated into the Neolithic. This is revealed by high frequencies and high internal variability of several mtDNA lineages from haplogroup T. The whole genome sequencing strategy and molecular dating allowed us to detect the accumulation of local mtDNA diversity to 5,138 +/- 3,633 YBP. Similarly, theY-chromosome gene pool reveals high frequencies of the Near Eastern J1
The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations
JR LUIS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/
"Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that both the Levantine corridor and the Horn of Africa served, repeatedly, as migratory corridors between Africa and Eurasia. We have begun investigating the roles of these passageways in bidirectional migrations of anatomically modern humans, by analyzing 45 informative biallelic markers as well as 10 microsatellite loci on the nonrecombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY) in 121 and 147 extant males from Oman and northern Egypt, respectively. The present study uncovers three important points concerning these demic movements: (1) The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. (2) In contrast, the Horn of Africa appears to be of minor importance in the human migratory movements between Africa and Eurasia represented by these chromosomes, an observation based on the frequency distributions of E3b*-M35 (no known downstream mutations) and M173. (3) The areal diffusion patterns of G-M201, J-12f2, the derivative M173 haplogroups, and M2 suggest more recent genetic associations between the Middle East and Africa, involving the Levantine corridor and/or Arab slave routes. Affinities to African groups were also evaluated by determining the NRY haplogroup composition in 434 samples from seven sub-Saharan African populations. Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component"
"Synthetic maps of Africa". The History and Geography of Human Genes.
Cavalli-Sforza.
http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
The gradient is clearly rooted in the relatively ancient presence of Caucasoids in a Northern strip along the Mediterranean and in additions from West Asia, which are visible in the second and third components....the C gene shows a clear North-South gradient, being frequent amongst Caucasoids and almost absent in sub-Sahara Africa. THERE ARE PEAKS IN EGYPT AND IN NORTHWESTERN AFRICA
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
BrennaHenn
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe.
Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in northeastern Africa Manni
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495079
"In conclusion, our analyses have identified a genetic regional continuity between the northeastern part of Africa (Egypt), the Middle East, and southern Europe. In agreement with the ethnohistorical connections between NE Africa and the Middle East, the genetic data confirm that Egypt, occupying an intermediate position along these routes, has been an important contact zone between the three continents."
The emerging tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: a synthesis of control-region sequences and RFLPs.
Am. J. Hum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377722/
We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs, from which it diverged approximately 50,000 years ago.
Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21472/abstract
Human population movements in North Africa have been mostly restricted to an east-west direction due to the geographical barriers imposed by the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea. Although these barriers have not completely impeded human migrations, genetic studies have shown that an east-west genetic gradient exists. However, the lack of genetic information of certain geographical areas and the focus of some studies in parts of the North African landscape have limited the global view of the genetic pool of North African populations. To provide a global view of the North African genetic landscape and population structure, we have analyzed ∼2,300 North African mitochondrial DNA lineages (including 269 new sequences from Libya, in the first mtDNA study of the general Libyan population). Our results show a clinal distribution of certain haplogroups, some of them more frequent in Western (H, HV0, L1b, L3b, U6) or Eastern populations (L0a, R0a, N1b, I, J) that might be the result of human migrations from the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe. Despite this clinal pattern, a genetic discontinuity is found in the Libyan/Egyptian border, suggesting a differential gene flow in the Nile River Valley. Finally, frequency of the post-LGM subclades H1 and H3 is predominant in Libya within the H sequences, highlighting the magnitude of the LGM expansion in North Africa. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2011. © 2011 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals
Federico Sánchez-Quinto
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047765
The results of the f4 ancestry ratio test (Table 2 and Table S1) show that North African populations vary in the percentage of Neandertal inferred admixture, primarily depending on the amount of European or Near Eastern ancestry they present (Table 1). Populations like North Morocco and Egypt, with the highest European and Near Eastern component (~40%), have also the highest amount of Neandertal ancestry (~60–70%)....Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations.
Genetic Variation of 15 autosomal STR loci in Upper (Southern) Egyptians
Ohmran
Local comparisons between Upper Egyptians were carried out with other ethnic groups in Egypt, based on frequency and molecular data. No differences were observed in comparison with a general Caucasian population from Cairo in any of the nine loci compared or with Egyptian Christians from Cairo…Multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) based on pair-wise FST genetic distances of Upper Egyptian and other diverse global populations. OCE, Oceanian; ME, Middle Eastern; NAF, North African; EAS, East Asian; SSA, sub-Saharan African; UEGY, Upper Egyptian; SAS, South Asian; EUR, European. The figure shows that Oceania and American populations are very distant from Upper Egyptians (marked by a grey triangle) and other populations. The Upper Egyptian population is closer to the Middle Eastern, North African, South Asian and European populations than others. (Genetic variation of 15 autosomal STR loci in Upper (Southern) Egyptians, Omran et al 2008.)
DNA STUDY PROVING MODERN EGYPTIANS 90% GENETICALLY IDENTICAL TO ANCIENTS:
PROOF Modern Egyptians descend from Ancient Egyptians -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz50_nx8UDg
STUDIES SHOWING THAT SUB SAHRAN AFRICA DNA- NOT EURASIAN- HAS INCREASED IN MODERN TIMES- SOME ALSO CONTAIN DATA ON EURASIAN DNA
Research on ancient DNA in the Near East
Mateusz Baca
http://www.scribd.com/doc/26068943/Baca-Molak-2008-DNA-Near-East
To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.
mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
C. Fox, 1997
The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26•7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68•7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
Mitochondrial DNA Research in the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt
Alison M. GraverMolecular genetic research is being conducted as part of the Dakhleh Oasis Project (DOP), an international and multi-disciplinary research initiative in the western desert of Egypt. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is being analyzed from both ancient human skeletal remains associated with the Roman period town of Kellis (100 to 450 AD) and contemporary inhabitants of the Dakhleh Oasis. The primary objectives of this research are to derive paleogenetic information about the inhabitants of ancient Kellis, and to develop a picture of change over time within this desert oasis. Preliminary mtDNA restriction site data and control region sequence variability suggest significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and modern oasis populations
mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?
Krings
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707631826
To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north.
GENETIC STUDIES ON OTHER AFRICAN GROUPS PROVING BACK MIGRATION
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa Arredi
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1216069/
"We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East."... that most of the rest fell into haplogroup U6 (Salas et al. 2002), which perhaps originated in the Near East and spread into North Africa ~30 thousand years (KY) ago (KYA)
Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography
Nicole Maca-Meyer
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15
World-wide phylogeographic distribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6. We report here a more detailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling successive expansions that affected not only Africa but neighboring regions such as the Near East, the Iberian Peninsula and the Canary Islands.
The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa.
Olivieri A
Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Their arrival temporally overlaps with the event(s) that led to the peopling of Europe by modern humans and was most likely the result of the same change in climate conditions that allowed humans to enter the Levant, opening the way to the colonization of both Europe and North Africa
Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Abstract
Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.
Study showing it difficult to find sub-Saharan DNA in modern Egyptians
Genetic variation and population structure of Sudanese populations as indicated by 15 Identifiler sequence-tagged repeat (STR) loci
PCA indicated that the Egyptian, Coptic, Somali, and to some extent the Nubian groups form genetically distinct population...the Somali population is of both Eurasian and Sub Saharan African origin, as suggest5ed by a recent study, potentially explaining the differentiation of this population from some East African groups, although many of the Sudansese populations, including the Arabs and the Beja, may also have mixed Eurasian and Sub-Saharan origin
Babiker 2011
Brief Communication: Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt Lucotte
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12687584
"As for mtDNA (Krings et al., 1999), the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings et al. (1999) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan.
It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200–3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991–1785 B.C.), and more permanently during the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490–1437 B.C.). The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730–655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt."
STUDY SHOWING BODY LENGHTS ARE NOT TROPICAL, BUT INTERMEDIATE, AND PROBABLY SO DUE TO PHENOTYPICAL DEVELOPMENT
Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide
Michelle H. Raxter
http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/vi...xter 2011"
 Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to
higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body
breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and
Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-
Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length
AFROCENTRISTS USUALLY CITE DR. KEITA, WHO IS NOT A GENETICIST AND HAS DONE NO ORIGINAL GENETICS WORK. IN ANY EVENT, HIS WORK DOES NOT SUPPORT THEIR POSITION. WHAT DR KEITA ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT THE RACE OF ANCIENT EGYPTIANS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZssWb4MmGM
QUOTES FROM OTHER STUDIES I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND IN ENTIRETY. PLEASE HELP IF YHOU CAN.
The M1 and U6 haplogroups originated simultaneously in Western Asia, and spread together with modern humans into Northern Africa. These early populations may represent the root stock of the early settlers/inhabitants of the Eastern Sahara who were subsequently to people the Nile valley and build one of the first organized city states...the Egyptian Pharaonic empire
Aubrey et at 2008
Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times. Linguistic research suggests that the Afro-asiatic phylum of languages could have originated and extended with these Caucasians.
Maca-Meyer et al 2003
Afro-Asiatic was introduced into Africa along with immigrant farmers and herdsmen from the near East 10,000 to 7,000 years ago.
Turner 2008
Indigenous North Africans are genetically quite distinct from Sub-Saharan Africans and this difference is reflected in their lighter skin and European/Middle Eastern physical features. We have previously suggested, on the basis of the distribution of the mtDNA type M1 that North Africans are largely descended from a back migration into Africa within the last 2000 to 15,000 years, resettling the temporarily lush Sahara and spreading the Afro-Asiatic language family.
Forrester 2007
These new colonizers of North Africa were of Caucasian surface phenotype. Then a second wave of afro-Asiatic expansion exploded from the Palestine Syriac center (the Afro-Asiatic homeland) probably for reasons associated with the genesis of agriculture, which would locate the expanison at about 10,000 BP. The new expansion into North Africa again virtually covered up the entire area of the first Afro-Asiatic North Africa settlement
Chin 2007
The first M1 backflow into Africa dated around 30,000 ya, is co-incidental with a harsh glacial period which suggests that this human retreat to Africa could be forced by climatic conditions...the northwestern African M1c and the probable central M1b expansions are co-incidental with the Iberomaurusian and Capsian industries
Gonzales et al 2007
aDNA anaylsis was possible to uncover the genetic heritage of prehistoric man (Iberomaurusian) from the Taforalt groto in Morocco (13,000 yeas BP) consisting of a North African and a Eurasian component. The absence of sub-sahara gentic polymorphisms suggested that Taforalt individuals did not originate from the sub-saharan region.
Kefi 2011
The near Eastern Haplogroups J and T (and probably K) appear to be concentrated more towards the East, mirroring the higher densities of U6, H, and V in the West. These may reflect the spread of the Neolithic into North Africa from the Levant
Pereira 2010
The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of race is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
"the theory that the badarian originated in the south is no longer accepted" (shaw, 2003)
cachibatches
Chieftain
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Furthermore, this "study" that Asante90 is trying to reference is a fraud on many levels. But without getting into the myriad problems, all anyone has to know about it is that it is based on data from the journal of American medicine that was admittedly falsified:
"Zink has stated that the tests did not get the same results each time they were run and the results reported in the JAMA paper are those the team adjudged "most likely" based on "majority rule" (Curse of the Pharaoh's DNA AWT Conference Review, Marchant; 2011)
The same team (including Zink) that worked on the 2010 study also worked 2012 study "Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study".
In the last post I have given the vast consensus scientific opinion, in this I show how this "study" floating around is bunk....please take this information and spread it around the internet so that we don't have to hear this nonsense anymore. The Egyptians are the same people that they always were, and I don't know what these culture vultures are trying to accomplish when their own ancestors are from WEST AFRICA thousand of miles away, spoke a different language group, demonstrably mostly looked different, never built a pyramid or wrote in hieroglyphic writing.
They should be glorifying the real achievements of their own ancestors- The Nok, Tichit Walata, Ghana, Mali Songhai, Chenguetti, Sungbo's Eredo, Jenne Jenno, the epic of Sundiata, Gao, Timbuktu, etc. West Africa is in dire need of attention from archeologists and historians, and instead these vultures busy themselves trying to separate a people from their ancestors...absolutely disgusting.
"Zink has stated that the tests did not get the same results each time they were run and the results reported in the JAMA paper are those the team adjudged "most likely" based on "majority rule" (Curse of the Pharaoh's DNA AWT Conference Review, Marchant; 2011)
The same team (including Zink) that worked on the 2010 study also worked 2012 study "Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study".
In the last post I have given the vast consensus scientific opinion, in this I show how this "study" floating around is bunk....please take this information and spread it around the internet so that we don't have to hear this nonsense anymore. The Egyptians are the same people that they always were, and I don't know what these culture vultures are trying to accomplish when their own ancestors are from WEST AFRICA thousand of miles away, spoke a different language group, demonstrably mostly looked different, never built a pyramid or wrote in hieroglyphic writing.
They should be glorifying the real achievements of their own ancestors- The Nok, Tichit Walata, Ghana, Mali Songhai, Chenguetti, Sungbo's Eredo, Jenne Jenno, the epic of Sundiata, Gao, Timbuktu, etc. West Africa is in dire need of attention from archeologists and historians, and instead these vultures busy themselves trying to separate a people from their ancestors...absolutely disgusting.
cachibatches
Chieftain
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Thanks.
I oppose this crap wherever I may find it, and when he pops back in and tries to show you some youtube clip of a random black guy saying that the Egyptians were black, or cite some minority opinion politically correct Egyptologist who offers no genetic evidence what-so-ever, or his culled pictures of the very few dark Egyptians that he can find mixed up with representations known to be Nubian, please just remind him of posts 91 and 92, and let him know that on an objective level he is going against a tidal wave of scientific consensus.
And then tell him that he is not fooling anyone.
Before I start, I'll note that I'm indifferent to the issue as a whole buuuut:
Also, my objections to JELEEN's arguments still stand.
Most of this has little or nothing to do with genetics and is irrelevant to the issue. For example, a lot of posters here speak English but come from places tens of thousands of miles away from Europe. Likewise, my lot never built Moai or wrote in Rongorongo but that doesn't mean that other Polynesians didn't do so. I also look different from the Rapa Nui, a lot different as it turns out, but that doesn't make them or I any less Polynesian.cachibatches said:
Also, my objections to JELEEN's arguments still stand.
cachibatches
Chieftain
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The Egyptians have almost nothing to do with the people that Asante come from except that they shared a continent. If the Egyptians had transmitted some of their knowledge and it could honestly be said that there was some kind of shared cultural ties (as European countries actually have) that would be different. But there is no known connection between ancient Egypt and West Africa. None.
The Egyptians are genotypically very different, phenotypically different, largely depicted themselves as different, spoke a different language group, lived on the other side of the continent, built pyramids (which West Africans did not do), wrote in hieroglyphic (which West Africans did not do), and have no known connection to West Africa. He has no ancestor that built a pyramid or wrote a hieroglyph on papyrus.
If it makes him feel good to say that they are fellow Africans, then fine. But if he is going to try and separate the Egyptians from their ancestors so he can swoop in and steal them, then he simply needs to read posts 91-92, because this is the scientific consensus. He has nothing to do with Egypt except that his people shared a continent with it.
What I took issue with was your claims that construction techniques, language and writing are somehow proof or evidence in favor of Egyptians being genetically different from "Western Africans". So far as I can tell, none of the studies you linked to suggested that language for example has a genetic component. While I accept that the genetic evidence supports there being a difference, I do take serious issue with your interpretation of what this actually means. As was noted: lots of people here speak English and have bugger all European anything. Lord_Baal is a point in case since by "genetic" rights he ought to be speaking Arabic? (You will note that at no time have I supported Asante's genetic claims. Although I have objected to stupid "observations" in which a certain poster sought to link material culture (among other things) to genetics.)
I'd also be surprised if the genetic evidence supported the hermetic sealing of Egypt against any and all genetic influences from elsewhere in Africa. That seems an overstretch.
I'd also be surprised if the genetic evidence supported the hermetic sealing of Egypt against any and all genetic influences from elsewhere in Africa. That seems an overstretch.
cachibatches
Chieftain
- Joined
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You seem like a good person, and by the way Masada, my favorite history is THE JEWISH WAR by Flavius Josephus.
It is a separate issue.
As I have shown, the overwhelming scientific consensus is that there is no sub-Saharan origin of Pharaonic civilization as Asante is trying to show. What is more, even if this bogus "study" he is trying to pass off was correct, I am not sure how a genetic analysis of one dynasty from the New Kingdom has anything to do with the origin of the Pharaohs.
In addition to the fact that his people genetically have little to do with Egypt, Egyptians also spoke a language from a different language group.
In addition to that, they mostly looked demonstrably different.
In addition to that, they built pyramids and wrote in hieroglyphic, which West Africans did not do.
So Asante's obsession (as evidence by passing information that he knows was falsified) with trying to fool everyone into thinking that they were sub-Saharan Africans makes little sense. They were not his ancestors.
And I don't know how to explain it in any other way. I am not saying language is is genetic component, just that West Africans have nothing to do with Egypt what-so-ever, genetic, language phenotype...whatever.
I, as a descendent of various Europeans, would have more right to claim Iranian ancestry, as the Persians at least spoke and Indo-European language and interacted with my ancestors.
None of this, by the way, to re-iterate a point, is a slap against Asante's real ancestors....it is he who shames them by denying them. In fact, I am an Africa history nut. I would rather be talking about REAL black African history- The Nok, Tichit, Walata, Oudane, Audoghost, Cheguetti, Jenne-Jenno, Ghana, Mali, Songhai, Loropeni, the Benin City Walls, Sungbo's Eredo, The epic of Sundiata, Mansa Musa, Nsibidi writing, Timbucto, Koumbi Saleh, Gao, and on and on. But these culture vultures would rather try to swoop in and steal a culture that has nothing to do with them, and separate a people from their ancestors by making believe that the Egyptians used to be someone else. Well, I am not going to let that happen.
POST SCRIPT: I never claimed that they were hermetically sealed, only that they were, and are, a mixed race with far more Eurasian than sub-Saharan. If you want to see what the ancients looked like, look towards the moderns. They are mostly the same.
It honestly would not surprise me a bit if the 18th was Nubian (although Nubians are also mixed), but his "study" does not prove it.
Already been through this with Chachibatches (here and here).
This guy post studies that he doesn't even understand. During our debate on citydata he displayed the fact that he didn't even know the difference between Mtdna and Y-DNA, and yet his entire premise is centered around him having "the bestest most perfect, most flawest GENETIC studies (which is the only criteria he has) there are". Even when every single study had been thoroughly addressed (by myself and several other people) and subsequently his misinterpretations debunked.
Also notice that his studies lack any contextualization. He claims that the ancient Egyptians have ALWAYS been "racially mixed" (or always exhibited the phenotypes of modern day northern Egyptians). In reality:
link to study.
To CONTEXTUALIZE this statement. It's saying that the largest non African genetic component in modern day Egypt (haplogroup J):
(samples can vary)
MOSTLY came about during the Islamic conquest of Northern Africa during 700 A.D. rather than the Neolithic which is consistent with archaeological and linguistic evidence (both of which Chachibatches feels are not relevant). It also states that the brunt of these migrants (including those that came from Europe) settled in urban areas of northern Egypt, which subsequently makes that region of Egypt less likely to resemble the indigenous inhabitants of the ancient Egypt. That my friend is just common sense that has been echoed by a drowned out voice of reason for centuries (check out the observations of Count De'Volney).
When pressed on the issue of when the non African genetic component entered the Nile Valley he presents flawed studies on the entrance of "Neanderthal genes" from 100,000 years ago (which we are suppose to assume that the people bringing in these "genes" from 100,000 years ago were white or non black in the first place). In another instance he presents one or two older flawed and thoroughly debunked studies suggested a Neolithic revolution brought about by "Caucasians" into the Nile. When asked which is it he claims both
. We then ask well why do all of the oldest skeletal remains show tropical adaption and overlapping strictly with ancient and modern tropical African populations. Chachibatches gives no answer other then skeletal remains are irrelevant (what better method is there to determine the PHENOTYPE of these ancient Africans). We then ask well what cultures or languages did these "Caucasians" bring into the Nile Valley. Chachibatches only answer is to repost the same uncontextualized wall of spam rather than directly answering the questions. Heck we even ask Chachibatches if your theory is so credible and mainstream can you cite at least three Egyptologist who verify your argument that ancient Egypt was ultimately of a non African origin (I mean after all we've cited an army of authorities who validate our argument). Chachibatches never seems to respond to this challenge, but wants his argument to be taken seriously. In other words it's a complete waste of time arguing with him. Well do tell what specific problems do you have with my argument?
Moderator Action: How comforting it is to see that even other sites that host threads on this subject have to close them down too because people can't discuss them civilly.
Things had better remain civil here or the thread will be closed down. Again.
Things had better remain civil here or the thread will be closed down. Again.
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