Sub Saharan origins for pharaohs (new DNA studies)

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EXCUSE ME?

natufiandata2.jpg


Ricaut 2008 summarized the great bulk of the research brilliantly in my opinion, wouldn't say so as well? Now please wipe that egg off your face.
You're going to need to dig up more than vague language about "links", "sub-Saharan biological elements" and "Negroid traits" (do all anthropologists write like Nazis, btw, or just this guy?) to argue that the Natufians were physiologically identical to modern Africans. Which isn't to say that they were physiologically identical to modern Levantines, either, but nobody hear is saying they did.
 
Kyriakos said:
Others, like masada, can be said to just be racist algae though

Who am I racist against, exactly?
 
The important thing here is that the "study" he is posting is known and acknowledged to be based on fraudulent data, and I have shown him this several times before he ever started this thread.

I do think you did, and do have a valid point. However maybe the thread can ultimatelly help produce more information on this which may present the case against the OP even more clearly :)
 
What "case" are you responding to? The genetic evidence for Ancient Egyptians being Sub-Saharan Africans or the claim that Ancient Egyptians would be considered black?

The first claim is hard to assess on the evidence because none of us have a good grounding in genetics. I do think however that it is reasonable to conclude that the "weight" of evidence and the mainstream view is that Ancient Egyptians were (1) more genetically like people in the Levant than in Sub-Saharan Africa and (2) that there are broad genetic continuities between Ancient Egyptians and Modern Egyptians. In this respect, I agree with cachibatches.

As to the claim that Ancient Egyptians would be considered black, I think the evidence in favor of that is rather a lot stronger than certain people here are willing to admit. For one, The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt outright acknowledges that Ancient Egyptians would be considered black in contemporary America. On the basis of this alone, I feel reasonably confident that Asante90 is right.

Asante90 has also done a reasonable job of providing other evidence to support his claim that our view of Egyptians as white and/or distinct from "Africans" is informed, in large part, by (mostly Victorian era) racism.

So tl;dr I agree with Asante90 on some things and disagree with him on others.

I'm also still waiting for cachibatches to respond to my concerns about the use of archaeological data to support his genetic claims.
 
What "case" are you responding to? The genetic evidence for Ancient Egyptians being Sub-Saharan Africans or the claim that Ancient Egyptians would be considered black?

The first claim is hard to assess on the evidence because none of us have a good grounding in genetics. I do think however that it is reasonable to conclude that the "weight" of evidence and the mainstream view is that Ancient Egyptians were (1) more genetically like people in the Levant than in Sub-Saharan Africa and (2) that there are broad genetic continuities between Ancient Egyptians and Modern Egyptians. In this respect, I agree with cachibatches.

As to the claim that Ancient Egyptians would be considered black, I think the evidence in favor of that is rather a lot stronger than certain people here are willing to admit. For one, The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt outright acknowledges that Ancient Egyptians would be considered black in contemporary America. On the basis of this alone, I feel reasonably confident that Asante90 is right.

Asante90 has also done a reasonable job of providing other evidence to support his claim that our view of Egyptians as white and/or distinct from "Africans" is informed, in large part, by (mostly Victorian era) racism.

So tl;dr I agree with Asante90 on some things and disagree with him on others.

I'm also still waiting for cachibatches to respond to my concerns about the use of archaeological data to support his genetic claims.
A) What genetic studies is the Oxford dictionary citing? If none then it should be completely disregarded. Please read through everything in post 91. We are not geneticists, but hundreds of geneticists have put out dozens of studies which all corroborate.

B) They are the same people that they always were, accept a little darker due to the millions of women who went through Egypt during the Arab slave trade. Most Egyptians are not what Martin Bernal would call "usefully black" today, so no. They were largely not black, though many individuals in Egypt may be considered as such. As a population as a whole, no.

C) What has modern day racial standards in America have to do with the ancient Egypt? Egyptians today do not for the most part consider themselves black (yes, a few do, I don't need to see Asante's clip of the random black guy out in the desert again). If you are going by someone's standards, it should be the standards of the people being judged.

D) Your comments telling- this is not really about the ancient Egyptians, this is about modern African Americans. Again, Egyptians are not ancestors to today's African Americans, West Africans are. Egyptians are/were genetically a very different people. They lived on the other side of the continent. They depicted themselves as very different. They spoke an Afro-Asiatic language and not a Bantu one. Asante has no ancestor that wrote in hieroglyphics or built a pyramid. Not one. Not one of his ancestors even knew that these things were going on.

E) I still do not understand your question. The archeology of Egypt has nothing to do with West Africa. In addition, there are no known connections- the Egyptians apparently never having got here. In addition, there speak different language groups....not languages, but language groups. This is all in addition to the genetic evidence, which is not my opinion, but the conclusion of the hundreds of geneticists that worked on the studies I posted. I haven't got another way to say this- Ancient Egypt had nothing to do with West Africa on any level. I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that language equals genetics, just that Egypt relates to West Africa in neither category.

Post 91 my friend. Its all there researched an laid out for you.
 
I do think you did, and do have a valid point. However maybe the thread can ultimatelly help produce more information on this which may present the case against the OP even more clearly :)
Post 91 my friend. I actually used to be more like Masada and very sympathetic with Asante's postion, but four forums and six months back he and his cronies (actually, I think they were all him under his different aliases) derided me for implying that the Egytpians were a mixed race.

Subsequently, I went on a quest to find what the current genetic studies say- they ALL agree with me (the Lucotte study is a little different, but still proves the greater point that the Egyptians were not black. We can discuss that greater if you like).

So Post 91 is really what you are looking for. There is no wide body of work, or even single genetic study which take the contrary position. The Egyptians were a mixed race since the stone ages, largely the same as today, although there is a bit more sub-Saharan in the mix due to the slave trade.

Asante knows this, which is why he passes his one falsified genetic study of one New Kingdom family, tries to push Keita who actually agrees with me, and fills the rest out with cranks like Robert Bauval and a random black guy out in the desert.

Thanks for listening, and please help spread the truth throughout the internet so that we can give Egypt back to the Egyptians, and hopefully stimulate archeological study of WEST AFRICA, where Asante's ancestors came from.
 
Someone posting false info is nothing new. Asante possibly does not view the info he posts as false, so he is rather just biased in regards to his sources' objective worth, and disinclined to hear the argument that his sources seem to present a racist view as well.

Well why don't you tell me which specific sources that I have presented are falsified? Oh and I will advise you however not to listen to Chachibatches :lol:

By the way are you going to respond to my points in the last post directed at you?
 
I do think however that it is reasonable to conclude that the "weight" of evidence and the mainstream view is that Ancient Egyptians were (1) more genetically like people in the Levant than in Sub-Saharan Africa

What weight of genetic evidence lead you to that conclusion?

and (2) that there are broad genetic continuities between Ancient Egyptians and Modern Egyptians. In this respect, I agree with cachibatches.

This I agree with.
 
You're going to need to dig up more than vague language about "links", "sub-Saharan biological elements" and "Negroid traits"

You accused me of being a liar after you claimed that after a "googlesearch" that you saw nothing about the Natufanians being more like Sub Saharan Africans in physical appearance. I just provided exerts from four different studies which indicate that the the Natufanians were in fact African migrants (originally called the Mushabi) who settled in the Levant and those African migrants not surprisingly had a phenotype (based on their skeletal remains) that overlaps with black Africans. Ricaut 2008 even uses the genetic data from Underhill and Luis et al proving an early expansion of the African haplogroup E moving into the Levant in northward into southern Europe as another line of evidence.

So in conclusion you asked for evidence supporting my claim and I provided it to you. Do you dispute my claim? If so with what evidence of your own?
 
Well why don't you tell me which specific sources that I have presented are falsified? Oh and I will advise you however not to listen to Chachibatches :lol:

By the way are you going to respond to my points in the last post directed at you?
The specific study that this thread is based on is a proven fraud, and since you yourself posted the links from past threads, everyone knows that you knew if and willingly posted falsified information.


"Zink has stated that the tests did not get the same results each time they were run and the results reported in the JAMA paper are those the team adjudged "most likely" based on "majority rule" (Curse of the Pharaoh's DNA AWT Conference Review, Marchant; 2011)
The same team (including Zink) that worked on the 2010 study also worked 2012 study "Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study".
 
What weight of genetic evidence lead you to that conclusion?



This I agree with.
Why, post 91 of course. Lets re-print it for everyone's enlightenment. the great thing about a the truth is that it never goes away, and the world will see it, wheather you like it or not.

The ancient Egyptians were virtually identical to the moderns. They were (are) a mixed race with heavy Eurasian input from various migrations in the Paleolithic and Neolithic. There were of course African genotypes, but phenotypically, they more resembled middle easterners because, or course, Egypt is not tropical. Every genetic study ever performed, some very recent, confirm this. The commonly stated idea that the gene pool was altered due to migrations of Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, etc, is nonsense. Many studies do, however, demonstrate that they have been darkened a bit from the Arab slave trade and the tens of millions of black African women that came through.

VARIOUS DNA STUDIES PROVING EURASIAN ADMIXUTRE IN ANCIENT EGYPTIANS:

Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...3.00057.x/full
Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow (Krings et al. 1999), and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period (Macaulay et al. 1999).

Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.-
Bosch
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/ar...enetic-markers
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.


Near eastern neolithic genetic input in a small oasis of the Egyptian Western Desert.
Am J Phys Anthropol.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19425100
Notwithstanding signs of expected genetic drift, we still found clear genetic evidence of a strong Near Eastern input that can be dated into the Neolithic. This is revealed by high frequencies and high internal variability of several mtDNA lineages from haplogroup T. The whole genome sequencing strategy and molecular dating allowed us to detect the accumulation of local mtDNA diversity to 5,138 +/- 3,633 YBP. Similarly, theY-chromosome gene pool reveals high frequencies of the Near Eastern J1

The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations
JR LUIS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/
"Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that both the Levantine corridor and the Horn of Africa served, repeatedly, as migratory corridors between Africa and Eurasia. We have begun investigating the roles of these passageways in bidirectional migrations of anatomically modern humans, by analyzing 45 informative biallelic markers as well as 10 microsatellite loci on the nonrecombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY) in 121 and 147 extant males from Oman and northern Egypt, respectively. The present study uncovers three important points concerning these demic movements: (1) The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. (2) In contrast, the Horn of Africa appears to be of minor importance in the human migratory movements between Africa and Eurasia represented by these chromosomes, an observation based on the frequency distributions of E3b*-M35 (no known downstream mutations) and M173. (3) The areal diffusion patterns of G-M201, J-12f2, the derivative M173 haplogroups, and M2 suggest more recent genetic associations between the Middle East and Africa, involving the Levantine corridor and/or Arab slave routes. Affinities to African groups were also evaluated by determining the NRY haplogroup composition in 434 samples from seven sub-Saharan African populations. Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component"

"Synthetic maps of Africa". The History and Geography of Human Genes.
Cavalli-Sforza.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Frw...page&q&f=false
The gradient is clearly rooted in the relatively ancient presence of Caucasoids in a Northern strip along the Mediterranean and in additions from West Asia, which are visible in the second and third components....the C gene shows a clear North-South gradient, being frequent amongst Caucasoids and almost absent in sub-Sahara Africa. THERE ARE PEAKS IN EGYPT AND IN NORTHWESTERN AFRICA


Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
BrennaHenn
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1002397
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe.

Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in northeastern Africa Manni
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495079
"In conclusion, our analyses have identified a genetic regional continuity between the northeastern part of Africa (Egypt), the Middle East, and southern Europe. In agreement with the ethnohistorical connections between NE Africa and the Middle East, the genetic data confirm that Egypt, occupying an intermediate position along these routes, has been an important contact zone between the three continents."


The emerging tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: a synthesis of control-region sequences and RFLPs.
Am. J. Hum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377722/
We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs, from which it diverged approximately 50,000 years ago.


Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21472/abstract
Human population movements in North Africa have been mostly restricted to an east-west direction due to the geographical barriers imposed by the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea. Although these barriers have not completely impeded human migrations, genetic studies have shown that an east-west genetic gradient exists. However, the lack of genetic information of certain geographical areas and the focus of some studies in parts of the North African landscape have limited the global view of the genetic pool of North African populations. To provide a global view of the North African genetic landscape and population structure, we have analyzed ∼2,300 North African mitochondrial DNA lineages (including 269 new sequences from Libya, in the first mtDNA study of the general Libyan population). Our results show a clinal distribution of certain haplogroups, some of them more frequent in Western (H, HV0, L1b, L3b, U6) or Eastern populations (L0a, R0a, N1b, I, J) that might be the result of human migrations from the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe. Despite this clinal pattern, a genetic discontinuity is found in the Libyan/Egyptian border, suggesting a differential gene flow in the Nile River Valley. Finally, frequency of the post-LGM subclades H1 and H3 is predominant in Libya within the H sequences, highlighting the magnitude of the LGM expansion in North Africa. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2011. © 2011 Wiley-Liss, Inc.


North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals
Federico Sánchez-Quinto
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0047765
The results of the f4 ancestry ratio test (Table 2 and Table S1) show that North African populations vary in the percentage of Neandertal inferred admixture, primarily depending on the amount of European or Near Eastern ancestry they present (Table 1). Populations like North Morocco and Egypt, with the highest European and Near Eastern component (~40%), have also the highest amount of Neandertal ancestry (~60–70%)....Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations.
Genetic Variation of 15 autosomal STR loci in Upper (Southern) Egyptians
Ohmran
Local comparisons between Upper Egyptians were carried out with other ethnic groups in Egypt, based on frequency and molecular data. No differences were observed in comparison with a general Caucasian population from Cairo in any of the nine loci compared or with Egyptian Christians from Cairo…Multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) based on pair-wise FST genetic distances of Upper Egyptian and other diverse global populations. OCE, Oceanian; ME, Middle Eastern; NAF, North African; EAS, East Asian; SSA, sub-Saharan African; UEGY, Upper Egyptian; SAS, South Asian; EUR, European. The figure shows that Oceania and American populations are very distant from Upper Egyptians (marked by a grey triangle) and other populations. The Upper Egyptian population is closer to the Middle Eastern, North African, South Asian and European populations than others. (Genetic variation of 15 autosomal STR loci in Upper (Southern) Egyptians, Omran et al 2008.)

DNA STUDY PROVING MODERN EGYPTIANS 90% GENETICALLY IDENTICAL TO ANCIENTS:
PROOF Modern Egyptians descend from Ancient Egyptians -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz50_nx8UDg

STUDIES SHOWING THAT SUB SAHRAN AFRICA DNA- NOT EURASIAN- HAS INCREASED IN MODERN TIMES- SOME ALSO CONTAIN DATA ON EURASIAN DNA

Research on ancient DNA in the Near East
Mateusz Baca
http://www.scribd.com/doc/26068943/B...-DNA-Near-East
To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.


mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
C. Fox, 1997
The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26•7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68•7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.

Mitochondrial DNA Research in the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt
Alison M. GraverMolecular genetic research is being conducted as part of the Dakhleh Oasis Project (DOP), an international and multi-disciplinary research initiative in the western desert of Egypt. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is being analyzed from both ancient human skeletal remains associated with the Roman period town of Kellis (100 to 450 AD) and contemporary inhabitants of the Dakhleh Oasis. The primary objectives of this research are to derive paleogenetic information about the inhabitants of ancient Kellis, and to develop a picture of change over time within this desert oasis. Preliminary mtDNA restriction site data and control region sequence variability suggest significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and modern oasis populations
mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?
Krings
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929707631826
To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north.

GENETIC STUDIES ON OTHER AFRICAN GROUPS PROVING BACK MIGRATION

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa Arredi
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1216069/
"We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East."... that most of the rest fell into haplogroup U6 (Salas et al. 2002), which perhaps originated in the Near East and spread into North Africa ~30 thousand years (KY) ago (KYA)

Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography
Nicole Maca-Meyer
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15
World-wide phylogeographic distribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6. We report here a more detailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling successive expansions that affected not only Africa but neighboring regions such as the Near East, the Iberian Peninsula and the Canary Islands.

The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa.
Olivieri A
Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Their arrival temporally overlaps with the event(s) that led to the peopling of Europe by modern humans and was most likely the result of the same change in climate conditions that allowed humans to enter the Levant, opening the way to the colonization of both Europe and North Africa

Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Abstract
Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.

Study showing it difficult to find sub-Saharan DNA in modern Egyptians

Genetic variation and population structure of Sudanese populations as indicated by 15 Identifiler sequence-tagged repeat (STR) loci
PCA indicated that the Egyptian, Coptic, Somali, and to some extent the Nubian groups form genetically distinct population...the Somali population is of both Eurasian and Sub Saharan African origin, as suggest5ed by a recent study, potentially explaining the differentiation of this population from some East African groups, although many of the Sudansese populations, including the Arabs and the Beja, may also have mixed Eurasian and Sub-Saharan origin
Babiker 2011


Brief Communication: Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt Lucotte
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12687584
"As for mtDNA (Krings et al., 1999), the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings et al. (1999) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan.
It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200–3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991–1785 B.C.), and more permanently during the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490–1437 B.C.). The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730–655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt."


STUDY SHOWING BODY LENGHTS ARE NOT TROPICAL, BUT INTERMEDIATE, AND PROBABLY SO DUE TO PHENOTYPICAL DEVELOPMENT

Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide
Michelle H. Raxter
http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/vi...xter 2011"
 Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to
higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body
breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and
Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-
Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length



AFROCENTRISTS USUALLY CITE DR. KEITA, WHO IS NOT A GENETICIST AND HAS DONE NO ORIGINAL GENETICS WORK. IN ANY EVENT, HIS WORK DOES NOT SUPPORT THEIR POSITION. WHAT DR KEITA ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT THE RACE OF ANCIENT EGYPTIANS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZssWb4MmGM

QUOTES FROM OTHER STUDIES I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND IN ENTIRETY. PLEASE HELP IF YHOU CAN.
The M1 and U6 haplogroups originated simultaneously in Western Asia, and spread together with modern humans into Northern Africa. These early populations may represent the root stock of the early settlers/inhabitants of the Eastern Sahara who were subsequently to people the Nile valley and build one of the first organized city states...the Egyptian Pharaonic empire
Aubrey et at 2008

Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times. Linguistic research suggests that the Afro-asiatic phylum of languages could have originated and extended with these Caucasians.
Maca-Meyer et al 2003

Afro-Asiatic was introduced into Africa along with immigrant farmers and herdsmen from the near East 10,000 to 7,000 years ago.
Turner 2008

Indigenous North Africans are genetically quite distinct from Sub-Saharan Africans and this difference is reflected in their lighter skin and European/Middle Eastern physical features. We have previously suggested, on the basis of the distribution of the mtDNA type M1 that North Africans are largely descended from a back migration into Africa within the last 2000 to 15,000 years, resettling the temporarily lush Sahara and spreading the Afro-Asiatic language family.
Forrester 2007

These new colonizers of North Africa were of Caucasian surface phenotype. Then a second wave of afro-Asiatic expansion exploded from the Palestine Syriac center (the Afro-Asiatic homeland) probably for reasons associated with the genesis of agriculture, which would locate the expanison at about 10,000 BP. The new expansion into North Africa again virtually covered up the entire area of the first Afro-Asiatic North Africa settlement
Chin 2007


The first M1 backflow into Africa dated around 30,000 ya, is co-incidental with a harsh glacial period which suggests that this human retreat to Africa could be forced by climatic conditions...the northwestern African M1c and the probable central M1b expansions are co-incidental with the Iberomaurusian and Capsian industries
Gonzales et al 2007

aDNA anaylsis was possible to uncover the genetic heritage of prehistoric man (Iberomaurusian) from the Taforalt groto in Morocco (13,000 yeas BP) consisting of a North African and a Eurasian component. The absence of sub-sahara gentic polymorphisms suggested that Taforalt individuals did not originate from the sub-saharan region.
Kefi 2011

The near Eastern Haplogroups J and T (and probably K) appear to be concentrated more towards the East, mirroring the higher densities of U6, H, and V in the West. These may reflect the spread of the Neolithic into North Africa from the Levant
Pereira 2010

The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of race is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

"the theory that the badarian originated in the south is no longer accepted" (shaw, 2003)
 
You accused me of being a liar after you claimed that after a "googlesearch" that you saw nothing about the Natufanians being more like Sub Saharan Africans in physical appearance. I just provided exerts from four different studies which indicate that the the Natufanians were in fact African migrants (originally called the Mushabi) who settled in the Levant and those African migrants not surprisingly had a phenotype (based on their skeletal remains) that overlaps with black Africans. Ricaut 2008 even uses the genetic data from Underhill and Luis et al proving an early expansion of the African haplogroup E moving into the Levant in northward into southern Europe as another line of evidence.

So in conclusion you asked for evidence supporting my claim and I provided it to you. Do you dispute my claim? If so with what evidence of your own?
Asante, all of this is angels dancing on the head of a pin. Now that I have exposed you on yet another thread, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT YOU ARE POSTING FRAUDULENT MATERIAL, AND THAT THE CONSENSUS SCIENTIFIC OPINION GOES AGAINST YOU.

Post 91 and 92. They are not going away. Nor am I going to stop reminding people of them.

Second call, answer these questions:

Given that Asante has posted links to threads in which he has previously been shown that the "study" that is the premise of this thread is a fraud, why did he post this thread? Why should he be believed on ANYTHING he says subsequently since he is knowingly posting fraudulent material?

2) Why does he post material that he knows is falsified? What agenda causes him to do so?

3) Since he himself posts studies showing massive Eurasian input in Egyptians and claims that it comes from the Arabs, why does EVERY geneticist who has looked at it think that the Eurasian admixture comes from the stone ages and that it is sub-Saharan African DNA which has increased via the slave trade? Where is his study saying so counteracting POST 91?

4) Why is his opinion better than that of the hundreds of scientists who worked on the dozens of studies, papers and quotes in POST 91? Is he not obligated to post dozens of papers, studies and quotes FROM GENETICISTS saying the opposite? Where are they? Why does he post skeletal studies and cranial studies from Keita and others when DNA science has made them obsolete? Why does he untruthfully claim that they have not been answered when one of the pieces of evidence that I have posted is the Raxter study on just this subject?

5) Why does he keep posting Keita as evidence when I myself have posted a link to a clip in which he clearly says that the diversity in Egypt today is the same as in ancient Egypt (directly contradicting Asante's unscientific opinion that Arabs altered the gene pool)? Does he not understand that Keita agrees with me? Why not when he has been told so many times on previous forums?

6) Does Asante not understand that now that the material has been posted in post 91 with web page addresses to the full studies when they can be found, anyone can now read them and see that everything that he is saying is a complete fraud?
 
Others, like masada, can be said to just be racist algae though :goodjob:

Didn't you make a whole post explaining how the blackies didn't accomplish anything, and in fact it was the glorious white man?

Clearly you need to go read post #91.
 
I only claimed that the by and large considered as the European founding civilizations of antiquity (Greece and Rome) cannot be said to have been "stealing" from Egypt or other non-European civilizations at the archaic time, and even more so from a "Black Egypt". You know just because 'leucophobia'* is not regarded as racist, does not mean it is not arguably an equally unscientific position as hatred/fear of black people :thumbsup:

*literally the term means "fear of white", and usually it means fear of the color white. I used it somewhat in jest :)
 
Wait, just for the record, is anybody calming that Cleopatra was black?
 
Wait, just for the record, is anybody calming that Cleopatra was black?

No no one did...I don't think anyone even brought her up. Though it is interesting that recently Egyptologist Sally Ann Aston had a documentary aired which insist that Cleopatra was of mixed ancestry (Greek and black African). This is based on the discovery of her sister's skeletal remains indicating African ancestry. Below is her lecture at the University of Manchester about the issue:

[YOUTUBE-OLD]CLoDgDE83rs[/YOUTUBE-OLD]

But something I've never understood is who the Hell cares about Cleopatra? I mean what feat did she accomplish that makes some folks equate Egyptian history with her? She was the last pharaoh of a dying African civilization. Why not focus on actual Egyptian pharaohs like Tiye or Hapshepsut.
 
No no one did...I don't think anyone even brought her up. Though it is interesting that recently Egyptologist Sally Ann Aston had a documentary aired which insist that Cleopatra was of mixed ancestry (Greek and black African). This is based on the discovery of her sister's skeletal remains indicating African ancestry. Below is her lecture at the University of Manchester about the issue:

(video)

But something I've never understood is who the Hell cares about Cleopatra? I mean what feat did she accomplish that makes some folks equate Egyptian history with her? She was the last pharaoh of a dying African civilization. Why not focus on actual Egyptian pharaohs like Tiye or Hapshepsut.

I think that the claims of one modern egyptologist are not that much to support the belief that Cleopatra (Cleopatra VII) was partly black.

This is the famous sculpture currently held in the Altes museum, in Berlin, of Cleopatra:

cleopatra4.jpg


It was created during her lifetime, and probably at 40-30 BC (Cleopatra was born at 69 BC and died at 30 BC). It obviously does not look black/african.

And she was not just the last pharaoh, she was the last ruler of Hellenistic Egypt, last in the line of 300 years of the Ptolemaic Dynasty. Surely Egyptian history is far longer than 300 years, since the Egyptian civilization existed for millenia before its Hellenistic ages. However Cleopatra does not appear to warrant the title of pharaoh of a "dieing" Egypt; it was the rapid rise of Rome, itself an event which could have been avoided at many times during its expansion (such as by Hannibal), which ultimatelly lead to the end of the Ptolemaic dynasty, and Egypt as the center of its own civilization. Egypt only again became the center of a civilization based on it after the arab expansion.
 
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