Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[hotrodlincoln]

I think locusts need to be nerfed. Can you make it so they don't spawn until a couple of hundred turns into the game please? China died coz of them in my current game (GEM immortal snail) and im mongols so i get all this free land Plus I had to save scum a couple of times coz locusts kepts spawning in the most bullsh1t places. Like 2 would come from one direction then another would sneak in from the another side and snipe my improvements/kill gatherer.

Personally, I think the locust unit is completely silly and doesn't really add much to the game. Rather than having a locust unit, the frequency of the "plague of locusts" random event should be increased. How exactly does a clubman or a slinger destroy a swarm of locusts? Are they out there in the fields smashing each locust one by one? Why are swarms of locusts able to kill units? Are they the rare flesh-eating variety of locust? How are they able to pillage roads, mines, quarries, lumbermills or anything else that isn't a farm? In my games they will usually sit in my territory for millenia without moving, because they're too powerful for my units to attack (2 str and fortified on a forested hill makes them a little tough), and my units are too powerful for them to attack. So they just sit there for millenia. What are they eating?

The locust unit in no way behaves the way a swarm of locusts should. I think the random event was a much better way of handling things. The frequency of it should be increased. That might also solve the problem of people getting the "herds of animals migrated" event five times in a row as well, since there will be a bad one to choose from. I think currently that particular event doesn't trigger until you research agriculture.

If the locusts could be changed to a defend only unit that could somehow only pillage seed camps and farms, then that would be great. However, I don't think there's a way to code that, and if there is, it's probably not worth the hassle.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Locusts should be nearly impossible to defeat unless you're using a fire-based unit to attack it with, such as arsonists, grenadiers, and flamethrowers. And I'm all for it being included.

 

[DRJ]

Locusts should be nearly impossible to defeat unless you're using a fire-based unit to attack it with, such as arsonists, grenadiers, and flamethrowers. And I'm all for it being included.

Or what about 'subdued' locust swarms that you can send against the wild ones? I mean humanity handled bees so why not locusts? Imagine the shamans could have extracted some pheromon stuff by chance and thus were able to steer some of the locusts movements, feed them in local places, let them breed there and if the foreign locusts invade the watchdog locusts would attack them and commit suicide like when a slave promoted unit attacks. The subdued (or 'produced'/bred by bug catcher hut like a unit) locust would also have to be fed by a tile each turn so there would be no production on it for you (you would place it next to your wheat farm maybe so when locusts spawn you could intercept them and protect that field before the enemy locust gets to eat through it). Locust would also cost maintenance (the druid pheromon steer crew has to be nourished, after all).
Again, this is not a fantasy spell (which C2C is not really the place for IMHO) but some alternate timeline stuff. Sort of the opposite of megafauna domestication: new prehistoric feature: minifauna domestication!^^ Any more ideas on this, anybody? What about domesticated sneaky trained rat-attacks on enemies? Or domesticated fire ants being able to prevent the chances of spreading fires due to the fact that they have certain ability to produce firebreaks or something lol^^

 

[hotrodlincoln]

There's not really a good reason to domesticate locusts unless they're being used as a food source. Raising ravenous swarms to send at your neighbors means they're still going to eat up your crops as well. An insect resource or two might not be a completely terrible idea, though. We have apiary and sericulture for bees and silkworms. Beyond that, the only really economically significant insect is Cochineal, which has been the primary source of brilliant red dye for most of human history. Only recently have we started to move towards much, much more expensive synthetic dyes, for the sole reason that people freak out when they realize what cochineal is. "Liek omg, that went in my food!"

 

[DRJ]

Yes, as stated in my last post they would still eat your land - you could only steer them where to go to (each turn they would have to move!) like a herd óf cows has to be sent to new grass. Locusts would follow the shamans with the pheromons. Also you're right: you can feed on the locusts (they are very tasty when flambé, I heard), so the really poor and starving people of your kingdom could always go and live amongst the locust: insect swarms as a form of early welfare lol.

I really would like to see that the side effects of the 10% intuitive, and 90% trial-and-error 'shamanistic research' would allow for such events like locust domestication with certain techs like 'fire', 'naturopathy', megafauna domestication and horse/deer riding (the locusts are fast so the swarm steerers need horses to be fast as well!) etc. Or event available with apiary tech...

Btw destroying enemy infrastructure with your domesticated locusts should be fun. I remember the Alpha Centauri game where one fraction the greens i think could produce the alien red fungus spore swarms. The locusts could bring that to C2C ;-)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Personally, I think the locust unit is completely silly and doesn't really add much to the game. Rather than having a locust unit, the frequency of the "plague of locusts" random event should be increased. How exactly does a clubman or a slinger destroy a swarm of locusts? Are they out there in the fields smashing each locust one by one? Why are swarms of locusts able to kill units? Are they the rare flesh-eating variety of locust? How are they able to pillage roads, mines, quarries, lumbermills or anything else that isn't a farm? In my games they will usually sit in my territory for millenia without moving, because they're too powerful for my units to attack (2 str and fortified on a forested hill makes them a little tough), and my units are too powerful for them to attack. So they just sit there for millenia. What are they eating?

The locust unit in no way behaves the way a swarm of locusts should. I think the random event was a much better way of handling things. The frequency of it should be increased. That might also solve the problem of people getting the "herds of animals migrated" event five times in a row as well, since there will be a bad one to choose from. I think currently that particular event doesn't trigger until you research agriculture.

If the locusts could be changed to a defend only unit that could somehow only pillage seed camps and farms, then that would be great. However, I don't think there's a way to code that, and if there is, it's probably not worth the hassle.

You can turn the various locust swarms off by editing the file CIV4SpawnInfos.xml in the folder Assets/XML/Units. Search for LOCUST and change

			<rateOverrideDefineName>ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER</rateOverrideDefineName>

to

			<rateOverrideDefineName>0</rateOverrideDefineName>

You may like to do that for Tasmanian Devils, Kolas and Wallabies also don't attack people, unlike ducks who do.

I like locusts the way they are, although I may try making them defend only to see if they will still pillage. To make them pillage only farms, plantations and orchards would require changing what pillage means which probably would be to much work for this release.

 

[rightfuture]

I also vote to keep locusts. I think they are realistic and a good idea.
If enough people don't like them - make them optional from one of the menus.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You mentioned about the killer ducks and such and that reminded me... why not add Unit Cannot Attack into the definition of the Harmless promotion so that a rabid pigeon can't take out unprotected workers and such. (Either that or we really need to start giving workers and settlers a touch of strength to compensate this problem.)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You mentioned about the killer ducks and such and that reminded me... why not add Unit Cannot Attack into the definition of the Harmless promotion so that a rabid pigeon can't take out unprotected workers and such. (Either that or we really need to start giving workers and settlers a touch of strength to compensate this problem.)

If your worker is wandering alone in the wild then it should suffer the ignominy of being killed by a duck! Neither settlers nor workers should be in the wild without protection, it says so in the Civ IV tips.

If I put can not attack (ie defend only) on such units they will avoid all units and you will have o hunt them down. At first this sounds OK but it means that soon all wild animals will be ducks any you still wont be able to catch up to then to kill them.

 

[DRJ]

@DH I understand you want to have crocs move along rivers and water which isn't working so they never move at all - in the meantime, wouldn't it better to have them move after all maybe only on terrain like jungle, swamp, flood plains and such (am I right that you can only say spawn on a terrain type not a terrain feature, is there a tag missing for terrain features like oasis, river, volcanoe?)? at least they wouldn't spawn in dozens on a desert tile next to oasis... In my last game I had a prob with not moving crocs: early in the game they appeared to build a barrier preventing me to explore further. I had no tracker yet and as scouts can't attack I was not able to get through the crocs to hunt effectively. Yes, I know I could have built 3 clubman or so to kill that croc where it camped. But the sitting ducks crocs really mess it up somehow. Lost all respects for crocs. I remember I was afraid of a croc that it would attack me when they were first introduced now I only see them as easy prey--- better having them in a jungle tile not connected to river or lake but actually moving and attacking, don't you agree?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@DH I understand you want to have crocs move along rivers and water which isn't working so they never move at all - in the meantime, wouldn't it better to have them move after all maybe only on terrain like jungle, swamp, flood plains and such (am I right that you can only say spawn on a terrain type not a terrain feature, is there a tag missing for terrain features like oasis, river, volcanoe?)? at least they wouldn't spawn in dozens on a desert tile next to oasis... In my last game I had a prob with not moving crocs: early in the game they appeared to build a barrier preventing me to explore further. I had no tracker yet and as scouts can't attack I was not able to get through the crocs to hunt effectively. Yes, I know I could have built 3 clubman or so to kill that croc where it camped. But the sitting ducks crocs really mess it up somehow. Lost all respects for crocs. I remember I was afraid of a croc that it would attack me when they were first introduced now I only see them as easy prey--- better having them in a jungle tile not connected to river or lake but actually moving and attacking, don't you agree?

I have tried many things to get the various crocs to work.

They can spawn on fresh water plots rivers, lakes and unfortunately oasis. This was done because someone removed flood plains from all but some of the desert terrains. Living in a dry continent I can tell you that we have flood planes on most terrains bordering our rivers. However flood planes is a feature as are trees and you can't have two features on the same plot. Although work on fixing that is under way.

I am in the middle of extending the number of different crocs available. Some spawn in swamp. The Gharial (released) and alligator (not released) are working better but can still spawn in places they can't move from. I need to go back and do the main croc and will when I get back. There are 23 types of croc on Earth but we only have art for 7.

It just needs me to get some time to work on them.

 

[DRJ]

alright, the multiple croc feature is a great idea in itself, so don't feel pushed^^ btw as you are living in Australia: how many types of crocs you had to fish out of your swimming pool yet?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

alright, the multiple croc feature is a great idea in itself, so don't feel pushed^^ btw as you are living in Australia: how many types of crocs you had to fish out of your swimming pool yet?

I live far to far south for crocs. When I worked up north we did decide to move our Sunday Picnic a bit lot further up stream because the river beach we were heading to had a bunch of large crocs sunning on it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

What if we made a Riparian terrain along rivers? That way crocs (and other river animals) would be limited to that type of tile.

Same goes for a "Beach" terrain along the coastlines which could limit marine animals like the Walrus, Seagulls and Penguins.

 

[Koshling]

What if we made a Riparian terrain along rivers? That way crocs (and other river animals) would be limited to that type of tile.

Same goes for a "Beach" terrain along the coastlines which could limit marine animals like the Walrus, Seagulls and Penguins.

I think we'd run ino scaling issues in having to devote entire tile-width regions to these terrains. Especially on small landmasses or heavily rivered ones

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think we'd run ino scaling issues in having to devote entire tile-width regions to these terrains. Especially on small landmasses or heavily rivered ones

Yeah the Amazon basin would probably become all ripirian then. Hmm there must be a better solution for the river croc problem.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yeah the Amazon basin would probably become all ripirian then. Hmm there must be a better solution for the river croc problem.

As I said, I have the problem mostly (50%) solved for two of the croc types. Now that they are being split apart it becomes a bit easier. Although the African crocs will still be the most difficult to do with what we have. If we had a tag that said only move to plots with fresh water then I could get rid of the terrain and feature limits I am currently using to try and stop them moving away from rivers. That would solve the problem well enough. We have such for spawn but not for movement.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Dancing Hoskuld

When you get back here is a button/icon for the sea animal unit category.

 

[Sgtslick]

AI really needs to hunt more. I think its one of the fundamental reasons they are struggling a little bit. Too many times i've wandered around the outskirts of ai territory and they greet me with a stack of units including quite a few trackers/hunters. These hunters need to be out scouring the wilderness for animals to plunder, not bludging in there cabins drinking hot cocoa and singing folk music.

 

[Koshling]

AI really needs to hunt more. I think its one of the fundamental reasons they are struggling a little bit. Too many times i've wandered around the outskirts of ai territory and they greet me with a stack of units including quite a few trackers/hunters. These hunters need to be out scouring the wilderness for animals to plunder, not bludging in there cabins drinking hot cocoa and singing folk music.

The ai builds explorers and hunters as a high priority (right after minimal defense essentially), and builds a number that depends on the size of the landmass they are on, and it's ratio of revealed to unrevealed territory (explorers) or neutral to owned (hunters) tiles. Typically a one city AI on a large landmass should be building more if it doesn't have a least 3 hunters active the way it's currently set. However, that doesn't mean you won't see trackers and so on 'hanging around', because with the curreent set of units trackers actually make reasonable sense as military, so they get built for that purpose also. What the AI does with any particular unit is determined by it's AI type, which is not visible (well it is with one of the shift mouse overs if you have chipotle enabled, but not otherwise). Units are created with a specific AI type when they are trained, and it's very very rare for it to ever change. Each actual unit type supports a number of Ai types (that is to say that the unit definition XML lists a bunch of Ai types each unit type supports), and the way the AI unit building works is to first decide what AI type it needs (which amounts to what purpose it wants the new until to fulfill), and then looks for the best unit it can currently build that supports that Ai type. For explorers this means it builds scouts for quite a long period, for hunters trackers as soon as it can. However, when it orders up a city defense it or a general attack unit it may also wind up building trackers or hunters, depending on what else it has available.