JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
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JosEPh
JosEPh
Subdued Animals in C2C discussions
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Dancing Hoskuld
Nice job with the new rhinos. Make sure you re-name the existing rhino "Black Rhinoceros". Right now its still called "Rhinoceros". Note I am not talking about the "Subdued Rhinoceros".
Also can you make sure the "Penguin" is renamed "Emperor Penguin" since we have more than one type of penguin?
Thanks in Advance!
Nice job with the new rhinos. Make sure you re-name the existing rhino "Black Rhinoceros". Right now its still called "Rhinoceros". Note I am not talking about the "Subdued Rhinoceros".
Also can you make sure the "Penguin" is renamed "Emperor Penguin" since we have more than one type of penguin?
Thanks in Advance!
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
@Dancing Hoskuld
Nice job with the new rhinos. Make sure you re-name the existing rhino "Black Rhinoceros". Right now its still called "Rhinoceros". Note I am not talking about the "Subdued Rhinoceros".
Also can you make sure the "Penguin" is renamed "Emperor Penguin" since we have more than one type of penguin?
Thanks in Advance!
Those are somewhere in the core text files so you could do the change just as easily as me.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Those are somewhere in the core text files so you could do the change just as easily as me.
I was not sure. I thought those were your original subdued animals.
Also you would still have to change the Subdued Penguin name too?
Best you do it so I don't break it.
DRJ
Hedonist
...getting unholy amounts of food by animals that have instant return to city.
So easy to exploit and get a megaboost/turn that AI hasn't:
for instance put early general + 2 scouts [+ cobra promotion bug (it's back!)] somewhere in the wild and move them around in a circle...
I had started a new GEM game since in my last (real) deity GEM (raging barbs) as Japan around 1500 BC (eternity) I topped best AI GIP by 150/turn, which I refused to continue to play as it gets boring. I had an economical blitzboost when at one SVN the subdued animals were changed to get autobeamed to cities.
With like 5 hunters I had 100food/100hammers coming in from butchering at times; as butchering in city is much more effective than "on the field" as before autobeam. So there's a flaw, I think. if we autobeam all animals home we should reconsider to lower the butchering bonus significantly (maybe to the prior "butcher in the field" level).
Personally I think bringing animals home was a bit annoying micromanaging but also somehow fun, for instance if you hadn't caught an elephant for the whole game and now you have to escort it back around half of the world^^
So /as long as we have no more subtle mechanics for domesticating/subdueing animals [like spy/bribe options modified for hunters?!!]
I suggest if your scout subdues an animal he is sent back to city with it.
That would make itnearly impossible to instant beam animals from half over the world to your city or it would at least be very seldom (because he wouldn't get far without having a subdue in the meantime), while an instant beam from just the surroundings of the capital is a bit more realistic & fine imho.
So hunting units would stay relatively close to hometown, only thiefs would be able to get far exploring -- or normal contingents of clubmen, making them more valuable by that....
So easy to exploit and get a megaboost/turn that AI hasn't:
for instance put early general + 2 scouts [+ cobra promotion bug (it's back!)] somewhere in the wild and move them around in a circle...
I had started a new GEM game since in my last (real) deity GEM (raging barbs) as Japan around 1500 BC (eternity) I topped best AI GIP by 150/turn, which I refused to continue to play as it gets boring. I had an economical blitzboost when at one SVN the subdued animals were changed to get autobeamed to cities.
With like 5 hunters I had 100food/100hammers coming in from butchering at times; as butchering in city is much more effective than "on the field" as before autobeam. So there's a flaw, I think. if we autobeam all animals home we should reconsider to lower the butchering bonus significantly (maybe to the prior "butcher in the field" level).
Personally I think bringing animals home was a bit annoying micromanaging but also somehow fun, for instance if you hadn't caught an elephant for the whole game and now you have to escort it back around half of the world^^
So /as long as we have no more subtle mechanics for domesticating/subdueing animals [like spy/bribe options modified for hunters?!!]
I suggest if your scout subdues an animal he is sent back to city with it.
That would make itnearly impossible to instant beam animals from half over the world to your city or it would at least be very seldom (because he wouldn't get far without having a subdue in the meantime), while an instant beam from just the surroundings of the capital is a bit more realistic & fine imho.
So hunting units would stay relatively close to hometown, only thiefs would be able to get far exploring -- or normal contingents of clubmen, making them more valuable by that....
I don't like this at all - it would mean it was impossible to explore with the designed exploration units, becaus random attacks on them by animals would cause them to be retruned to your city!
However, I DO agree that auto-return of subdued makes them far too plentiful and removes a gameplay aspect. Personally I think the way it was before (for land animals) was fine, and my vote is to return to that, or at least to make the auto-beam-back a (non-default) option.
DRJ
Hedonist
Yes, I thought about this again. Using clubmen for exploring isn't the real thing. What about having the scout be a real scout, he wouldn't be able to subdue at all, unlike trackers/hunters.
The trackers/hunters would have to be buildable without master hunter (because the scout couldn't subdue an animal to build it in the first place)
The reason I like the idea to have the trackers/hunter sent back to city with subdued animal is because after having trips in the surroundings and catching something to butcher they have to bring the meat back to the tribe just like in real life (they don't tell the nile monitor: look, go 20 tiles in that direction and you'll be butchered, ok? bye!). Simple as that^^
Yes, why not? Options are always the best^^
DRJ
Hedonist
Sry for doublepost but I just thought about the animal situation a bit and want to have this seperate from my last post:
What if...
...'xp' gained vs animals could be the 'currency' to _subdue_ animals?
I'll explain this a bit--
the idea is to be able to enhance the hunter with the _bribe_ mechanisms of a spy, when on same tile like the animal.
---> how could it be avoided that an animal would instantly be killed once a hunter gets on its tile?
Would it be possible that animals and hunter would not have direct fight tile vs tile but indirect fight, much like attrition, if the animals would be like spy units, too? that way only hunter-type units could hunt animals and other units like some clubmen could be on same tile like an animal but it would not harm them except it is a dangerous animal then they would get damaged or get killed (so could be good for stacks to - much like a healer - have an experienced hunter nearby, for safety reasons *)
If your hunter ends his turn on an animal and the animal loses the "attrition fight" it would get damaged or killed, if it has not much health left.. -->>
if it has 1/3 of its energy it could get "fed". (modified bribe mechanics type one)
The animal would vanish but it would pass on this experience to coming generations^^
To simulate that you would get "bribe-currency points" for each "feeding".
So after you have a certain amount of that you could actually "domesticate" an animal that has 1/3 of it's power, instead of "feeding".
Each animal would have a "realistic" value of how expansive they are to be bribed/domesticated - related to their behaviour towards humans (like Lion/Sheep).
In this scenario, a strategy could be to save "bribe-currency" (better call it maybe "confidingness skill") for something like a bear (you would have to "feed" quite some animals first to finally get one but you could maybe build bear riders later // best situation: only fed _bears_ would account, not _all fed animals_ but I don't know if these seperate feeds/per species could be counted for one barb civ like lets say herbivores).
It would be hard to catch an animal as if wounded, you'd to move after it, to finally catch it - but they would draw you deeper in the unknown wild --> are you taking that risk or equip a larger group of hunters first...? Lot more effort to _use_ the animals rather then just kill them! (persistence hunting might get some new promotion features?)
---
So, to summarize the 2 major problems I see within this new concept: is it possible for spy units (aka hunters/animals in this case) to have a battle of attrition if on the same tile, that works like 'bombardment'?
--
Could the following question maybe be a workaround of the problem of the bribe/domestication currency for all animals to have every animal it's own domestication points scale?
Can it be coded that there is a count of lets say "bears killed", that if it reaches a certain value (maybe related to map size) unlocks a spy action in regard of that unit type (modified bribe mechanics type two)?
What if...
...'xp' gained vs animals could be the 'currency' to _subdue_ animals?
I'll explain this a bit--
the idea is to be able to enhance the hunter with the _bribe_ mechanisms of a spy, when on same tile like the animal.
---> how could it be avoided that an animal would instantly be killed once a hunter gets on its tile?
Would it be possible that animals and hunter would not have direct fight tile vs tile but indirect fight, much like attrition, if the animals would be like spy units, too? that way only hunter-type units could hunt animals and other units like some clubmen could be on same tile like an animal but it would not harm them except it is a dangerous animal then they would get damaged or get killed (so could be good for stacks to - much like a healer - have an experienced hunter nearby, for safety reasons *)
Spoiler :
If your hunter ends his turn on an animal and the animal loses the "attrition fight" it would get damaged or killed, if it has not much health left.. -->>
if it has 1/3 of its energy it could get "fed". (modified bribe mechanics type one)
The animal would vanish but it would pass on this experience to coming generations^^
To simulate that you would get "bribe-currency points" for each "feeding".
So after you have a certain amount of that you could actually "domesticate" an animal that has 1/3 of it's power, instead of "feeding".
Each animal would have a "realistic" value of how expansive they are to be bribed/domesticated - related to their behaviour towards humans (like Lion/Sheep).
In this scenario, a strategy could be to save "bribe-currency" (better call it maybe "confidingness skill") for something like a bear (you would have to "feed" quite some animals first to finally get one but you could maybe build bear riders later // best situation: only fed _bears_ would account, not _all fed animals_ but I don't know if these seperate feeds/per species could be counted for one barb civ like lets say herbivores).
It would be hard to catch an animal as if wounded, you'd to move after it, to finally catch it - but they would draw you deeper in the unknown wild --> are you taking that risk or equip a larger group of hunters first...? Lot more effort to _use_ the animals rather then just kill them! (persistence hunting might get some new promotion features?)
---
So, to summarize the 2 major problems I see within this new concept: is it possible for spy units (aka hunters/animals in this case) to have a battle of attrition if on the same tile, that works like 'bombardment'?
--
Could the following question maybe be a workaround of the problem of the bribe/domestication currency for all animals to have every animal it's own domestication points scale?
Can it be coded that there is a count of lets say "bears killed", that if it reaches a certain value (maybe related to map size) unlocks a spy action in regard of that unit type (modified bribe mechanics type two)?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
fyi I am working on Beats Master which adds a new set of "tame" animals at the moment. However I am having graphics problems so I have to remove all the new civs and cultural units to be able to play. I have three new antelopes ready it be put on the SVN.
Auto return is currently in the unit XML if I had a set of values in the options file I could allow the auto return on various groups of animals. I will try it out.
In theory we can have a property at the nation level for each animal set which could simulate what you are suggestion. AIAndy's property system should be extendable to fit the situation. By animal set I mean all the different bears contribute to the bear property.
I do not like the idea of only hunter units being able to kill animals but we may be able to use the Outcome system differently so that hunters give much better results and are the only ones able to capture animals.
Auto return is currently in the unit XML if I had a set of values in the options file I could allow the auto return on various groups of animals. I will try it out.
In theory we can have a property at the nation level for each animal set which could simulate what you are suggestion. AIAndy's property system should be extendable to fit the situation. By animal set I mean all the different bears contribute to the bear property.
I do not like the idea of only hunter units being able to kill animals but we may be able to use the Outcome system differently so that hunters give much better results and are the only ones able to capture animals.
DRJ
Hedonist
Thx for your answer. And yes, I didn't intend that only hunters could kill animals - as the spoiler in my last post shows, I also included normal units with the hunting promotion to give defensive attrition which would also kill animals; although not combined with the ability to later subdue them, as that would be a spy/bribe mechanic only 'spy units' like hunters could have... btw can a spy unit be visible for other units? I liked the AI to see my hunter and be able to kill him too...
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
DRJ
Hedonist
Currently I think having another invisible unit is a bit to complex a solution.
Edit BTW I use most animals for gold/culture rather than food/hammers when I am playing with realistic culture spread on.
It wouldn't be invisible it would be like a (for all) visible spy. As well as the animals would be defacto spy units that could be seen.
So you could see them but also move upon them.
The animal would hide on the tile, and within the tile the hunt is going on, either by the hunters attrition or by the defensive attrition by hunting promotion of normal units.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
What are the lat/Longitude for the Rhino, because i just saw one in the Iowa/Minnesota
borders
borders
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Dancing Hoskuld
Could you add some sort of "Taxidermist" building that can be made by any animal? I am thinking maybe unlocked at Chemistry or something. They should give
and 
since its a business. Anything else you think it should it should have I will leave to you.
Could you add some sort of "Taxidermist" building that can be made by any animal? I am thinking maybe unlocked at Chemistry or something. They should give
and since its a business. Anything else you think it should it should have I will leave to you.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
What are the lat/Longitude for the Rhino, because i just saw one in the Iowa/Minnesota
It as probably a wooly rhino just out from the barber.
It may just have wandered there for a holiday, but yes I think I my have made a small mistake in its range when I added the new rhinos.Three new antelope are on their way, if I can get my last test to work, two African and one Asian. Croc graphics next oh and bears.
Also testing later start of spawns for sea creatures. Next is an option for autobeam back to city for each set of animals land and sea.
@Dancing Hoskuld
Could you add some sort of "Taxidermist" building that can be made by any animal? I am thinking maybe unlocked at Chemistry or something. They should give
I am having trouble getting out of the prehistoric era without my graphics card crashing
. I am wondering if it is overheating or something also RL is just too busy atm for me to get to things. I will see.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I am having trouble getting out of the prehistoric era without my graphics card crashing
It could be. I once had one that overheated because the fan was not powerful enough. I stuck in a 2nd fan (which I already had from an earlier computer) and it solved my problem.
It also helps if you open it out and clean out any dust that has built up inside.
Strictly this is about regular animals (not subdued ones), but this thad felt closest...
I am thinking of changing things so that animals can move OUT of owned territory, instead of just not being able to make any move involving owned territory at all (in or out). This should help the trapped-in-amber effect that currently occurs when cities are founded, or borders expand.
Anyone object...?
...and similarly any animal caught in territory it doesn't belong in should be relocated. I noticed in my GEM game that there are whale resources in coastal waters - these spawn giant squid, which are then trapped there because they belong in ocean. I can adapt the code used to boot units out of borders on ending open bored agreements or border pops to just move gem to the nearest valid tile. Again unless anyone has objections...?
I am thinking of changing things so that animals can move OUT of owned territory, instead of just not being able to make any move involving owned territory at all (in or out). This should help the trapped-in-amber effect that currently occurs when cities are founded, or borders expand.
Anyone object...?
...and similarly any animal caught in territory it doesn't belong in should be relocated. I noticed in my GEM game that there are whale resources in coastal waters - these spawn giant squid, which are then trapped there because they belong in ocean. I can adapt the code used to boot units out of borders on ending open bored agreements or border pops to just move gem to the nearest valid tile. Again unless anyone has objections...?
DRJ
Hedonist
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