Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Yudishtira]

I suppose it's a bug, but I just popped a goody island with a Subdued Hawk.

I say it's a bug because they can't reveal territory - which I take to mean that, unlike Tamed animals later on, they have no human handler/attendant. This being the case, they would not be able to conduct 'diplomacy' of this kind on your behalf.

Of course, it was a very pleasant surprise...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I suppose it's a bug, but I just popped a goody island with a Subdued Hawk.

I say it's a bug because they can't reveal territory - which I take to mean that, unlike Tamed animals later on, they have no human handler/attendant. This being the case, they would not be able to conduct 'diplomacy' of this kind on your behalf.

Of course, it was a very pleasant surprise...

As far as I know there is noway to stop any unit getting a goody hut. Barbarians are the only one who don't. Goody huts are an improvement we can restrict by terrain or feature but not by improvement.

This means it is a feature. Besides subdued animals do have a human handler that is why they get all those terrain promotions to avoid terrain damage. Which probably means they should not cross water like they do now.

On another note they also seem to be ignoring terrain and roads which breaks stack movement making any stack containing a bird likely to take the longest path to its destination. Unfortunately the XML tag for ignore terrain when moving is not being used to achieve this so I can't fix it.

 

[strategyonly]

As far as I know there is noway to stop any unit getting a goody hut. Barbarians are the only one who don't. Goody huts are an improvement we can restrict by terrain or feature but not by improvement.

This means it is a feature. Besides subdued animals do have a human handler that is why they get all those terrain promotions to avoid terrain damage. Which probably means they should not cross water like they do now.

On another note they also seem to be ignoring terrain and roads which breaks stack movement making any stack containing a bird likely to take the longest path to its destination. Unfortunately the XML tag for ignore terrain when moving is not being used to achieve this so I can't fix it.

I believe the goody huts are just fine.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No they aren't they need a proper going over si that we can have space ones too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

As far as I know there is noway to stop any unit getting a goody hut. Barbarians are the only one who don't. Goody huts are an improvement we can restrict by terrain or feature but not by improvement.

This means it is a feature. Besides subdued animals do have a human handler that is why they get all those terrain promotions to avoid terrain damage. Which probably means they should not cross water like they do now.

On another note they also seem to be ignoring terrain and roads which breaks stack movement making any stack containing a bird likely to take the longest path to its destination. Unfortunately the XML tag for ignore terrain when moving is not being used to achieve this so I can't fix it.

Well... we have 2 options on dealing with subdued birds.
1) take away their flight unitcombat
or
2) I can program a tag that makes certain Unitcombats incapable of moving onto a space with a goody hut.

For the second problem about movement you mentioned either we address that by simply saying one should group their flying animals separately or we can simply remove their flight. If we remove their flight, we should also cut down their movement as I presume they'd be caged animals at that point.

 

[Yudishtira]

IMHO:
Birds (most of them anyway) gotta fly - they gotta ignore terrain costs and have 3 move (at least).

And they gotta cross coast. That was a huge improvement, don't you dare remove it...

Big enough birds popping goody islands is no biggy on reflection (as is land animals popping huts as I now assume they can too). A crow/hawk/eagle may well make off with a bag of 'shinies', a map, or even an artifact that inspires us to a new technology. The superstitious villagers may indeed see the bird as a harbinger and throw out a Stone Thrower to appease it. And it's not that unlikely that they will befriend it and teach it new tricks that translate into XP. Or turn hostile and try to kill it for supper.

In conclusion, *Jedi wave*...forget I spoke...

 

[Hydromancerx]

How about subdued birds cannot cross water? that way wild ones could cross but if you have a subdued version its wings are clipped so they cannot fly away.

 

[Yudishtira]

How about subdued birds cannot cross water? that way wild ones could cross but if you have a subdued version its wings are clipped so they cannot fly away.

They can't reveal territory, so they can't cross water that hasn't been visited or had a unit with Hunting Sight pretty close (or it's in/adjacent to your culture). That's quite enough of a limitation.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... good thoughts on both sides. I'll wait to hear more before formulating any stronger opinions on this topic. I'm kinda liking the justifications for using them to reveal goody islands but not liking the imbalance it represents to be able to get them out raiding all the islands before anyone gets any naval units. So I'm leaning towards making them simply unable to reveal goodies - perhaps all animals shouldn't be able to when you think about it. How different is this to having a subdued wolf get a goody hut on land?

That said, as pointed out about their inability to reveal - it does limit them and the wolf alike. But then with the birds its not too strategically tough to get a jump on the ai by getting your hunting sight endowed units out to scour the coast in preparation for the birds to get out there.

 

[Hydromancerx]

They can't reveal territory, so they can't cross water that hasn't been visited or had a unit with Hunting Sight pretty close (or it's in/adjacent to your culture). That's quite enough of a limitation.

Yeah but they can still see island goody huts from the land. Having it so they cannot go into the coastal waters would prevent any subdued birds from getting them. Thus you cannot use birds to pop island goodie huts which are made to be popped by sea units.

Note that I am fine with wild birds flying over the coast I just think its very cheesy for one to subdued birds to do that.

 

[Yudishtira]

I'm kinda liking the justifications for using them to reveal goody islands but not liking the imbalance it represents to be able to get them out raiding all the islands before anyone gets any naval units. So I'm leaning towards making them simply unable to reveal goodies - perhaps all animals shouldn't be able to when you think about it. How different is this to having a subdued wolf get a goody hut on land?

Um yes I agree: who will ever have rafts or canoes if they can use pigeons instead? No such argument for on land, though, so maybe let land animals keep the ability?

That said, as pointed out about their inability to reveal - it does limit them and the wolf alike. But then with the birds its not too strategically tough to get a jump on the ai by getting your hunting sight endowed units out to scour the coast in preparation for the birds to get out there.

But the problem there is that the AIs are not using subdued animals enough. In my prehistoric snail current game, I think I glimpsed 1 AI subdued animal total, whereas they form about half of my army (literally - 4 bears, two tigers and some numbers-maker-uppers vs. a Neanderthal, two Atlatls, three Spiked Clubs and some fodder). And of course birds are invaluable for scouting ahead (and up mountains) so that your Trackers (and especially Chasers/Wanderers before that) don't run into anything they can't handle. Are you saying you can't teach the AI to use these things?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Are you saying you can't teach the AI to use these things?

Well... it would be tough to say the least. Most AI work is and that's fairly superfluous to more major AI upgrade needs we already have.

I personally NEVER risk any subdued animals to use them in the field as I find they almost always die when I do and I find their added production and food from slaughtering them too useful a tradeoff to any benefit these units that can't attack can provide. And if I'm going to be getting XP from battle with enemies in the field I want that XP to be going towards units I have a longer term investment interest in.

Note that I am fine with wild birds flying over the coast I just think its very cheesy for one to subdued birds to do that.

I can see this point too... just keep in mind that to take away their flight combat class (which is the only way to achieve this without a lot more work to unbundle the flies to move ability) would also mean they can then be pursued, will get penalties for crossing rivers and from attacking from a ship, will be unable to travel over peaks and other unpassables... there's a number of downsides. But some of those downsides could be a fair tradeoff for them if we're considering them to have their wings clipped and we overall feel it's 'cheesy' for them to be retaining the ability to freely fly while somehow remaining under (crude) human control.

 

[Yudishtira]

I personally NEVER risk any subdued animals to use them in the field as I find they almost always die when I do and I find their added production and food from slaughtering them too useful a tradeoff to any benefit these units that can't attack can provide. And if I'm going to be getting XP from battle with enemies in the field I want that XP to be going towards units I have a longer term investment interest in.

Once you have Hunters I'd agree but if you want a Wanderer or Chaser to live long he needs to be accompanied by a bird, Tiger or Wolf (more than one if you have them). Tigers and (Dire?) Wolves are free, and are 3-strength 2-move units when your human hunters are all strength 1 - and even your military aren't as strong as your pets. (Rhinos, Moas and Ellies etc. of course are even better - if you can get them.) Even Trackers increase their odds of survival by being accompanied by these free (did I mention that yes I think I did) units.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sure they're free production wise but not gold upkeep wise. I have other ways to keep my hunters alive. But I do admire that you have a unique strategy that does work for you - obviously quite well. I may have to reconsider on some of these points.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I can see this point too... just keep in mind that to take away their flight combat class (which is the only way to achieve this without a lot more work to unbundle the flies to move ability) would also mean they can then be pursued, will get penalties for crossing rivers and from attacking from a ship, will be unable to travel over peaks and other unpassables... there's a number of downsides. But some of those downsides could be a fair tradeoff for them if we're considering them to have their wings clipped and we overall feel it's 'cheesy' for them to be retaining the ability to freely fly while somehow remaining under (crude) human control.

I like this solution considering our limitations. And from a meta-game point of view we would assume all subdued animals are under some sort of human control. Be it leashes, cages or even clipped wings. It if was not for the fact that you need to transport animals from one city to another I would not want them to even be able to leave a city.

Hmmm. That gets me thinking. What if all subdued animals could be immobile and you would need to load them into transport cages or something to move them to other cities? Note that Trained/Tamed Animals would still get to move. Then again I think there were some issues with land transports so I guess that's not a good idea.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It if was not for the fact that you need to transport animals from one city to another I would not want them to even be able to leave a city.

Hmmm. That gets me thinking. What if all subdued animals could be immobile and you would need to load them into transport cages or something to move them to other cities?

I like this idea, except the transport one. We could probably make a mission that moved an animal from one city to the next.

Actually, I hate this idea - I usually have a stack of animals just sitting there. Then when I am about to found a city (very early game) I send the settler, early merchant and defender off with a stack of missionaries and animals ready to build all the buildings needed in a new city.

As to the suggestion of having a wolf around to defend a wanderer, I have always reached scouts well before I have caught a wolf.

 

[Faustmouse]

You could make all animals 1 Movement and 1 Str to simulate the caging. But I also love to use strong animals as main defender... I guess you could also make them single use (release it) and let their str remain. But make them (similar to Heros) only defend "last".

 

[Hydromancerx]

That is an interesting idea that they kamikaze themselves if you use them in battle. That could possibly work. However that still means they can be used for goodie huts. I suppose we could always make them so they get horrible results from goodie huts. So one would not want to use them for that purpose.

Its also semi-realistic too. If I sent a lion to a village I don't think the villagers would be too happy with me (unless they worshiped lions ).

 

[Yudishtira]

As to the suggestion of having a wolf around to defend a wanderer, I have always reached scouts well before I have caught a wolf.

Sorry which one would you substitute the Scout for? I presume not the Wanderer, as scouts can't hunt. The Wolf scores over a scout as escort because it's free to build.

Besides, it can be long after you reach scouts, trackers or whatever before you can afford the to upgrade your wanderers (assuming you can get them home from whither they have wandered), or to replace them.

[DISCLAIMER: My experience may vary from yours perhaps (if for no other reason lol, then) because I'm using Sgtslick's costs option...(and Fight or Flight obviously)]

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

My wanderers always die in their first combat so I gave up building them. I use scouts until I can build trackers.