Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The code for map generation is supposed to not put elephant resources outside of Africa and southern Asia.

 

[Taxman66]

How is that defined when the map doesn't look anything at all like Earth?
I'm on a map with a relatively narrow continent that extends from pole to pole (with ice flow preventing ships from switching oceans). I have no clue if this is North/South America continent or Eurasia continent. It might be N/S America, because I do get llamas and there isn't a cow or Auroch anywhere. On the other hand there are camel resources with camels to subdue; and no Bison at all either... So I see evidence that could argue for either.

 

[dilophosaur]

There were several species of camels in North America in Pleistocene, so they are acceptable in NA arid/desert areas.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

How is that defined when the map doesn't look anything at all like Earth?
I'm on a map with a relatively narrow continent that extends from pole to pole (with ice flow preventing ships from switching oceans). I have no clue if this is North/South America continent or Eurasia continent. It might be N/S America, because I do get llamas and there isn't a cow or Auroch anywhere. On the other hand there are camel resources with camels to subdue; and no Bison at all either... So I see evidence that could argue for either.

There is a post process in the Map Utils process that does a lot of post processing for C2C eg Walrus only appears in northern hemisphere whereas normal map process just places resources a set distance from the equator ignoring North and South.

As to regions, unless you are playing on a custom map, Civ IV defines the edge of the mini map as 180 degrees East (right hand side) and 180 degrees West (left hand side). Spawns are defined based on that and Earth.

 

[Taxman66]

Yeah, not sure I completely agree with that. Every time in the past I've raised objections I've been told "this is not a historical simulation", I think that quote should apply here (or if not for 'other' reasons, animal resources shouldn't appear where spawns don't, or there should be some other way to get the myth (tamed animal perhaps))

 

[JosEPh_II]

Every time in the past I've raised objections I've been told "this is not a historical simulation",

Yeah I say that a lot. Cause I'm tired of the ppl that want it To Be One when it clearly is not. So we get a quasi-historical simulator that bends the rules (as it should by the way imhpo).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yeah, not sure I completely agree with that. Every time in the past I've raised objections I've been told "this is not a historical simulation", I think that quote should apply here (or if not for 'other' reasons, animal resources shouldn't appear where spawns don't, or there should be some other way to get the myth (tamed animal perhaps))

The alternative is to have all animals appear anywhere on the map or maybe limited by latitude like in BtS. It is currently based on the base Cultures in C2C. Getting them to be dynamic based on where the nations start is difficult as that is decided after the map is built and is based on where the resources are (in general or by bonus class). The idea is that it should be difficult to get all the animals. When was the last time you got a lemur? It is in game but restricted to a very small location that may not have the correct terrain.

The tamed animals should be able to build the myth and is the whole reason for trading them with other nations.

 

[Dr. Elephant]

That is a good question sicne they lived more like an elephant, but are a type of mammoth. Maybe the mammoth.

That could be an good idea, but (IMO at least) it would be better to make them spawns on elephant ressources since, back then, they are elephants in the Americas too. I know (as I have read the recent posts) that elephants are, currently restricted to Africa and Asia corresponding tiles and, for that I respectufully disagree, as they have been present from Americas to Asia, at the start of the most recent starting date.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ideally we would have a Colombian mammoth. But if people are set on elephants being in the Americas then perhaps have them stop spawning there after a certain date to simulate them going extinct. However the only elephants we have are African and Asian elephants. Though really it should be mammoths since I am not sure if there were any true elephants in the Americas. As far as i can recall there were American Mastodons, Colombian Mammoths and Gomphotheres.

 

[dilophosaur]

Gomphotheres and mastodons should be also included in C2C, they inhabited forests and wetlands, a different biome than Columbian mammoths lived in.
What about litopterns in South America? Would they also be included (maybe as another part of "stonepunk", able to create herds, mabye mounts?

 

[Dr. Elephant]

Ideally we would have a Colombian mammoth. But if people are set on elephants being in the Americas then perhaps have them stop spawning there after a certain date to simulate them going extinct. However the only elephants we have are African and Asian elephants. Though really it should be mammoths since I am not sure if there were any true elephants in the Americas. As far as i can recall there were American Mastodons, Colombian Mammoths and Gomphotheres.

Well, as all animals are from Zoo Tyccon 2, you may use their American Mastodon model for the mastodon. But, alternatively, you may use the model from Tyranachu, as it was in public domain, you may use it instead.
http://zt2downloadlibrary.wikia.com/wiki/American_Mastodon_(Tyranachu)

Also, as you consider extending the areas, for the elephants, I also, suggest to consider the addition of Palaeoloxodon, for Europe.
http://zt2downloadlibrary.wikia.com/wiki/Palaeoloxodon_(Luca9108)

 

[Dr. Elephant]

Gomphotheres and mastodons should be also included in C2C, they inhabited forests and wetlands, a different biome than Columbian mammoths lived in.
What about litopterns in South America? Would they also be included (maybe as another part of "stonepunk", able to create herds, mabye mounts?

I am agree but, unfortunaly, no Gomphotheres models have been made for Zoo Tycoon 2, so we don't have a viable model for it.

 

[dilophosaur]

Unfortunately, but litopterns have good ZT1 model (official) and excellent ZT2 model by Hendrix.

 

[Dr. Elephant]

Unfortunately, but litopterns have good ZT1 model (official) and excellent ZT2 model by Hendrix.

It could be interesting as Macrauchenias disappear at 20,000-10,000 years ago. Well, as this title, the Toxodon could be an another candidate as it go extinct as, recently, as 16,500 years ago.

But, as all inclusion of new animals need coding, it was to Hydro to decide if they could be included.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

But, as all inclusion of new animals need coding, it was to Hydro to decide if they could be included.

The XML to include them is fairly straight forward it is converting the graphics to fit that is the big problem.

If you want these "elephants" to be used in game as wild animals that is the first step. They can also be used as workers easily enough but it you want them as combat or other units then you need a lot more graphical work to make it happen.

 

[dilophosaur]

You are right about the toxodons. They might play the role of cattle in europe (and Macrauchenia sp. is an equivalent to a horse) nad there is good ZT2 user-made model for toxodons, aswell.
What about carnivorous marsupials and giant tortoises/monitors in Australia? Maybe some myths?
Diprotodon as a beast of burden/warbeast (dunno if it can be a mount, it was an aggressive animal, IMHO)?
Different looks of dogs "evolving" from the Ethiopian wolf, foxes, maned wolf, warrah, jackals and true wolves. Pararel "dogs" bred from the thylacine and so on.

 

[Dr. Elephant]

You are right about the toxodons. They might play the role of cattle in europe (and Macrauchenia sp. is an equivalent to a horse) nad there is good ZT2 user-made model for toxodons, aswell.
What about carnivorous marsupials and giant tortoises/monitors in Australia? Maybe some myths?
Diprotodon as a beast of burden/warbeast (dunno if it can be a mount, it was an aggressive animal, IMHO)?
Different looks of dogs "evolving" from the Ethiopian wolf, foxes, maned wolf, warrah, jackals and true wolves. Pararel "dogs" bred from the thylacine and so on.

For Australia Thylacoleo could be an interesting candidate, as present in this pack (with Diprotodon and Genyornis).
http://thezt2roundtable.com/topic/10528122/1/

But for the rest, you go too far buddy. Alternatives dogs breeds, that don't have existed, are not necessary an good idea.

Also you remember that Toxodon were limited to South America, so it could be the cattle for that region.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The XML to include them is fairly straight forward it is converting the graphics to fit that is the big problem.

If you want these "elephants" to be used in game as wild animals that is the first step. They can also be used as workers easily enough but it you want them as combat or other units then you need a lot more graphical work to make it happen.

Maybe you could write out a 'How to add a new animal to C2C' manual and put it all into steps, including how it could and/or should be worked into the buildings and trainers and so on that you've already done. That would be a pretty cool manual for the rest of us if we wanted to flesh out some more critters.

 

[Dr. Elephant]

The XML to include them is fairly straight forward it is converting the graphics to fit that is the big problem.

If you want these "elephants" to be used in game as wild animals that is the first step. They can also be used as workers easily enough but it you want them as combat or other units then you need a lot more graphical work to make it happen.

For be honest, I more view them as wild animals that another thing, principally for adding an more prehistoric flavor for the first era of the game. For example, Palaeoloxodon could spawn in Europe corresponding tiles, until his extinction, and as it was an elephant, it may be used as the Asian and African elephants are used in the mod: used for producing regular elephants units, and an corresponding myth.

For the others candidates (Macrauchenia and Toxodon) I view more them as an way to have workers, who give flavor to the South America region, that another thing.

And for American mastodon, I give the choice to Hydro, as combat units are, like you say, more difficult to code.

IMO, the best candidate for an combat unit could be the Woolly Rhino, if it get included, of course.

 

[dilophosaur]

Ad Elephas (Palaeoloxodon): it was closely related to Asian elephant, nowadays some palaeonthologists recognize both as one big genus. Fun facts: you may add dwarf elephant species living on Mediterranean islands (Sicily, Cyprus, Crete, etc.) as one small, sheep-sized elephant (workers, bonus resource and ivory, no war units of course)

Ad South American ungulates: I agree, workers are good idea.

Ad woolly rhinos: yup, as his bigger relative, the Elasmotherium works in game.

What about Diprotodon as a worker and Australian "cattle"?