Submarines

[Truthy]

Have you ever been on a submarine? What's your favorite type of submarine?

Instead of building 3 Zumwalt-class stealth destroyers, should the US Navy instead have just built 4 or 5 Virginia-class submarines?

What are the pros and cons of including submarines in carrier strike groups?

Discuss submarines and submarine-related issues here.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Have you ever been on a submarine?

Yes.

What's your favorite type of submarine?

Any that meet the primary design statistical criteria; ie number of surfaces=number of dives.

Instead of building 3 Zumwalt-class stealth destroyers, should the US Navy instead have just built 4 or 5 Virginia-class submarines?

Impossible question.

Destroyers serve a multitude of functions. They provide cheap alternative targets to reduce attacks on carriers. They provide 'show of force' deterrence against threats to shipping. They are useful radar platforms in air engagements.

Virginia class submarines are just straight killers that don't really provide anything else, but straight killers are a necessary evil.

What are the pros and cons of including submarines in carrier strike groups?

There's only one pro, but it is irrefutable. The only effective defense a carrier strike group has against enemy submarines is friendly submarines, so they have to be included.

Since the pro can't be overcome cons don't really matter, but from a submariner point of view operating in concert with surface ships sucks and everyone would rather avoid it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Mostly a waste of money IMHO.

They're never going to be used properly in their intended role and even if they are they're not a war winner.

Additionally whose navy are you gonna fight with them?
Carriers and destroyers useful.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Mostly a waste of money IMHO.

They're never going to be used properly in their intended role and even if they are they're not a war winner.

Additionally whose baby are you gonna right with them?

Oh, I think a handful of Trident missile subs qualify as a "war winner." So much so that they double as a "war preventer."

As to attack boats, what makes you think they would never be used in their intended role?

 

[Berzerker]

Subs remind me of Woody Allen... seamen in a tube?

back when I was a kid in San Francisco they let the public onto ships and I think a sub was part of the tour

 

[EgonSpengler]

I've been aboard two Balao-class submarines, USS Lionfish at Battleship Cove, in Fall River, Massachusetts, and USS Pampanito, at Fisherman's Wharf, in San Francisco. I shared a sandwich with an elderly retired submariner on the Pampanito. I'm not sure if he worked there or was just hanging out, shooting the breeze with the tourists. I wasn't sure that we were supposed to be eating right there on the ship, but it was the crew's mess and he said he'd been on the crew, so...

 

[Zardnaar]

Oh, I think a handful of Trident missile subs qualify as a "war winner." So much so that they double as a "war preventer."

As to attack boats, what makes you think they would never be used in their intended role?

Missile subs are a bit different
Even then they're kinda useless as nukes are semi obsolete as well.

There's virtually no scenario where the subs are useful. Vs China maybe but if the US can't use their carriers to control the seas they've probably already lost.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Oh, hey, I wasn't even thinking about tours and such. I got to tour this Soviet boat and this WWII German boat.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Missile subs are a bit different
Even then they're kinda useless as nukes are semi obsolete as well.

There's virtually no scenario where the subs are useful. Vs China maybe but if the US can't use their carriers to control the seas they've probably already lost.

If an enemy ship ever gets within range of a carrier then something has gone horribly wrong. If the US is ever in a shooting war with someone who actually has a Navy, trust me, ships will be sinking way faster than a handful of carriers can get around to them.

As to nukes being "obsolete," how do you figure? MAD is about the only war preventative policy that has ever worked, and it still works, near as I can tell.

 

[Berzerker]

Das Boot was a realistic 80s movie about a German U-Boat in WWII, not for the claustrophobic.

My dad was merchant marine in wwii and his ship was sunk by a U-Boat down near Cuba. He got out of that and started flying B-17s.

 

[Commodore]

Missile subs are a bit different
Even then they're kinda useless as nukes are semi obsolete as well.

Submarines can fire missiles with conventional warheads as well. That allows them to strike targets against an adversary that might have strong defenses against surface ships like, say, China (supposedly).

 

[Zardnaar]

If an enemy ship ever gets within range of a carrier then something has gone horribly wrong. If the US is ever in a shooting war with someone who actually has a Navy, trust me, ships will be sinking way faster than a handful of carriers can get around to them.

As to nukes being "obsolete," how do you figure? MAD is about the only war preventative policy that has ever worked, and it still works, near as I can tell.

Nukes are obsolete in terms of no one is going to use them. Having a few around is useful as deterrence and missile subs are a part of that.

Subs used to be cheap.

 

[Berzerker]

in the movie Jaws one of the main characters relived being on the USS Indianapolis, short version - the mission was secret, they delivered the bomb(s) and got sunk by a sub. Sharks shredded the survivors

Jaws got him

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Submarines can fire missiles with conventional warheads as well. That allows them to strike targets against an adversary that might have strong defenses against surface ships like, say, China (supposedly).

The term "missile subs" refers generally to subs that launch SLBMs (submarine launched ballistic missiles). They are a deterrent weapon that is basically unmatched because they are impossible to deactive with sufficient levels of certainty.

Attack boats can launch a variety of cruise missiles as you point out, in addition to being the only effective anti-submarine warfare platforms.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nukes are obsolete in terms of no one is going to use them. Having a few around is useful as deterrence and missile subs are a part of that.

No one is going to use them so long as someone else has them. That has always been the point. That doesn't make them obsolete, it makes them indespensible.

 

[IglooDame]

Have you ever been on a submarine? What's your favorite type of submarine?

Aside from museums, I was on a midshipmen orientation cruise on the USS Pittsburgh (a 688 class) in 1989 for a couple days.

Instead of building 3 Zumwalt-class stealth destroyers, should the US Navy instead have just built 4 or 5 Virginia-class submarines?

No. Destroyers are inherently more useful in everything short of a naval war with China or Russia.

What are the pros and cons of including submarines in carrier strike groups?

Already covered.

Discuss submarines and submarine-related issues here.

They're expensive and have narrow usefulness, but very effective and hard to kill. I hunted them, as crew aboard a Knox-class frigate and a Spruance-class destroyer.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I hunted them, as crew aboard a Knox-class frigate and a Spruance-class destroyer.

LOL...how'd that go?

 

[IglooDame]

LOL...how'd that go?

Notice I used the word "hunted" rather than, say, "sank", or "killed", or for that matter, even "detected".

I assume you're familiar with the term "flaming datum"? I certainly am.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Notice I used the word "hunted" rather than, say, "sank", or "killed", or for that matter, even "detected".

I assume you're familiar with the term "flaming datum"? I certainly am.

Sure. That's when you surface and shoot a flare gun at the surface ships you are assigned to do exercises with to give them some chance of finding you, right?

 

[IglooDame]

Sure. That's when you surface and shoot a flare gun at the surface ships you are assigned to do exercises with to give them some chance of finding you, right?

Sort of. It came from WWII, and essentially is the point that a burning sinking ship is also a very useful signal (and potentially the only one) of where a submarine is/was.