Suggestions and Requests

[Imperator Knoedel]

Yes, something like this. If you lost your trade routes with other countries and spoiled relationships with them, you have to get something instead.

You mean something like exactly what I did in my modmod?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

The lower halves of the economy and labor civic categories make no sense. Public Welfare should not be in the same category as Capitalism, instead it should be an alternative to Free Market. Industrialism and Environmentalism can be removed completely. Every modern civilization is industrialized, capitalism is inherently linked with industrialization, how can industrialism possibly be an alternative to capitalism? Environmentalism of course has no historical precedent whatsoever.

The only relevant countries (disregarding backwards nations which might as well be running Agrarianism, Tribalism or Slavery) in the 20th century that weren't clearly capitalist were running a planned economy, so if there is a capitalism civic then a planned economy civic needs to be in the same category. But then countries like modern China can't be represented, because Central Planning + Capitalism fits them better than Central Planning + Free Market, which doesn't make much sense either.

Capitalism is just a way too broad term to be used as a civic which is supposed to have several viable alternatives, this is exactly the same issue Nationhood in vanilla had. It makes no sense as a name for a civic because pretty much every modern civilization is defined by it. Even a planned economy, the only possible not outdated alternative, can be run in conjunction with it as China shows.

Capitalism, both as a civic and of course in real life, needs to disappear.

The question is then, what should replace it? How are the new economy and labor categories to look like? Maybe labor should be about who the ruling class is?

Let's see, slaveholders (Slavery), feudal lords (Feudalism), capitalists (Capitalism), bureaucrats (Socialism? though it could also apply to some older absolutist regimes and various Chinese dynasties and the like)... that leaves one slot, but I am not sure what it could be filled with. I'm tempted to suggest something like the people (Communism/Anarchy), but alas, that unfortunately has no historical precedent on a large and on the worldstage relevant scale. Perhaps something for fascism instead? That would however have too much overlap with other categories, because fascism by design has to be Autocracy + Totalitarianism. Religious leaders maybe? Then again Theocracy in the government category is bad enough as it is what with its potential to be used at the same time as Secularism.

At any rate, Public Welfare should replace Environmentalism in the economy category.

 

[ezzlar]

Could you please change Indias UB so it doesnt get a pantheon bonus? India starts with state religion and builds its game around religious buildings and shrines.

 

[Leoreth]

Could you please change Indias UB so it doesnt get a pantheon bonus? India starts with state religion and builds its game around religious buildings and shrines.

That doesn't work, but it's not as if it is a negative for India?

 

[ezzlar]

You mean that the building must have the pantheon bonus? No, it's not negative. It just feels meaningless to have an UB that gives you one effect you "never" can use.

 

[Leoreth]

The Pantheon bonus is tied to the building class, i.e. all unique buildings including the base building. And it's not a bonus of the building, but of the civic.

 

[ezzlar]

Then I feel India should be more rewarded since one of the effects are null. You get -10% maint but you will never get that happy face.

 

[Vectors]

Well, this is just a proof of concept. It works, you can do it, so of course it could change. Anyway, in most DoC games, the colonising tropical Africa is usually left to the AI.



Really simple, just some large increment to cultureCost on non-ocean tiles within two rectangular areas of the map covering most of the tropics in Africa. Maybe +500. There are cleverer ways to do it (multipliers, or discounts for plots with resources). Then when you discover Biology, it does cultureCost recalculation like when a new resource type is discovered, and it skips the increment from then on.

I like it, but it needs to exclude resources otherwise is makes Portugal a lot harder.

Some of them? Does that mean most of them are just random adjustments based on imagination? Because then I can see why Leoreth wouldn't want to include it. There's too many resources as it is.

Certain resources like coal are essential to late game play.

I like the idea but it goes a touch too far. Cities should probably be able to get access to adjacent resources without too much culture. After all if you build your citadel next to a sugar plantation you ought to be able to trade the sugar. Other than that though I'm on board.

The other way in which the mod fails to represent the actual historical difficulty in colonizing Africa is that the African barbarians are just too easy to defend a city against. Historically speaking the technological limitations in settling Africa contemplated by Panopticon's suggestion had an effect, but Africans also proved difficult to conquer until the era of the maxim machine gun (Whatever happens, we have got: the maxim gun, and they have not). While it's true that those speedy impi can wreak havoc on unprotected workers and horse archers, but they don't do well against fortified cities and really any other medieval unit and beyond. It really doesn't take that many crossbowmen to control giant swaths of Africa as early as you can get the settlers down there. Perhaps 2 speed pombos should start patrolling sub-shararan Africa earlier and in greater numbers. After all by the age of exploration a glorified spearman is going to be little more than a speed bump for any reasonably technologically advanced civilization. This might have a profoundly negative effect on the Mali but their UU could also be compensated to counter.

You also need it so this doesn't qualify as a massive nerf to Portugal.

I agree that culture should have more tangible benefits, but I disagree that they should be global, echoing Chep's arguments. Culture should be one of the ways of going "tall". My current ideas for culture benefits:
- National wonders require culture levels. First national wonder enabled by Refined, second by Influential, third by Legendary.
- Specialist GPP scale with culture level, +1 GPP per level

Sounds nice, maybe +1 per culture level starting with the second culture ring? Also making it so legendary (or influential) cities could work ring 3 would be awesome.

To represent the superiority of liberal democracy over authoritarian ideologies such as Marxism.

And here I thought it was about the revolutionary new ideas that the enlightenment produced such as inventing the idea that women are inherently inferior intellectually to men and so are black people to white people.

Mercantilism seems relatively useles to me in its current state.

Economically you lose a lot of trade in most/nearly all cases. And stability does not get better with it as you receive heavy diplo penalties for not having any open borders or for having open borders with welathier nations.

Example from my actual Portugal game (1.13, UHV, Paragon, normal, 1700AD). I switched to Mercantilism to see its effect (it is build for civs like Portugal). I closed my borders to every civ with more points then me.

Result: Lost 1/5 of my research and my stability went down to -25. (see attachement)

It is useless

 

[Leoreth]

Sounds nice, maybe +1 per culture level starting with the second culture ring? Also making it so legendary (or influential) cities could work ring 3 would be awesome.

I'm hesitant to add new sources of happiness, and third ring is a very work intensive change.

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

I don't think the second Viking UHV (Vinland) can be done with new culture system.

I founded Armagh (northern tip of Ireland) with one of the starting settlers and wiped temple and library as fast as possible. But even then it takes too long to open the route to iceland, which would have the same problem opening the route to Vinland.

 

[Leoreth]

Sounds like a challenge.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Don't the capes there disappear upon discovery of Compass for the Vikings?

 

[FinalLegendZero]

Don't the capes there disappear upon discovery of Compass for the Vikings?

Technically it's Ocean being converted to Coast, but yes, a path to Iceland appears when the Vikings discover the Compass.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Technically it's Ocean being converted to Coast, but yes, a path to Iceland appears when the Vikings discover the Compass.

Personally I always found that to be pretty gamey.

 

[Publicola]

Perhaps we could give the Vikings a UP similar to the old seafaring system from Civ II: any and all of their ships are able to pass through ocean tiles (though without the double movement), so long as they end up on a coastal tile by the end of the turn. Otherwise, their ships are automatically sunk.

We could also tie it to the need for the Vikings to populate and settle along that north Atlantic route by adding a further restriction: that only ships that begin within their own civ's cultural borders are able to travel across ocean, and must end on a (presumably unaffiliated) coastal tile. That'd force them to settle in England or Ireland, Iceland and possibly Greenland, while avoiding the 'gamey' nature of "Oh, research this tech and the map itself will change to make your UHV possible."

 

[NerfCothons]

It is useless

The capital trade modifier is just far too low. You trade off a 150% to all international trade (of which there is enough to be just about every trade route) for 50% capital trade which is generally going to be every route going through your capital and one route per each city. That's obviously a crappy tradeoff. now if that capital trade bonus were 200% then there would be specific types of empires that would benefit from the civic.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

The capital trade modifier is just far too low. You trade off a 150% to all international trade (of which there is enough to be just about every trade route) for 50% capital trade which is generally going to be every route going through your capital and one route per each city. That's obviously a crappy tradeoff. now if that capital trade bonus were 200% then there would be specific types of empires that would benefit from the civic.

Or Mercantilism could get reduce distance from palace upkeep like Totalitarianism does...

 

[Leoreth]

Or Mercantilism could get reduce distance from palace upkeep like Totalitarianism does...

Or you could stop repeating yourself.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Or you could stop repeating yourself.

I like my idea better.

Anyhow, I was just reading up on Medieval warfare, and apparently knights were used to finish the enemies off after the infantry did the main job and dispersed the enemy. This means in game terms knights should be good at wiping up an already damaged stack, with foot soldiers doing the actual initial fighting. Perhaps melee units should give collateral damage, Knights be a bit weaker but receive the Blitz promotion for free?

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

Don't the capes there disappear upon discovery of Compass for the Vikings?

I wasn't aware of that. Then it can be done. But is there any hint on this ingame or in the civipedia? And does it only work for the vikings (or if the player is the vikings) or for all civs?