Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Sep 11, 2014.
Sorry. I forget that Animism is a religion civic in the game . Well, I have read some texts, including the ones that Krieger-FS and MechatronicJazz indicated, and I found that the Ghana Empire worshipped a black snake called Bida, who is believed to be the reason for the empire's wealth in their mythology. However, I found no reference to this deity being worshipped by the malinke too. One detail I have found reading a resume of The Epic of Sundiata is that the baobab tree was called S'ra and has been described to have healed Sundiata from his physical illness. I believe that the name S'ra, a baobab tree or its leaf (to be more simple) as an icon and a sacred grove or tree could be representatives of these people's traditional faith. I found this image that can help wit the icon's art. If not, I can find another.
About Kongo, the cosmogram have this form:
The same symbol in the Kongo civilization flag in the game.
Well, based on my readings, I suggested this because Asatru have many similarities with the continental Germanic faith and the anglo saxon faith. So, I thought it wouldn’t be an exaggeration. About the civilizations, I have based myself on the Germanic kingdoms that have been created in the respective regions of Portugal, France, Spain and Italy (Franks in Galia, Visigoths in most of what would be Spain and south France, Suebi in most of what would be Portugal and finally the Lombards, who dominated large parts of Italy for some time) and that have given origin to their languages and culture. However, However, make a new pagan representation for these civilizations can be nice and more appropriate, since the name Asatru comes from Iceland and is more norse-oriented.
I think it's worth noting that when we talk about "Germanic" kingdoms after the fall of Rome, we are talking about kingdoms with a Germanic elite, not necessarily with entirely or even predominantly Germanic populations. Of course, the religions, cultures, and languages would have been influenced by the elite and by population migration and integration, but it wasn't complete. Case in point, the major languages of western Europe are mostly Romance languages, not Germanic ones, pointing to the lasting influence of Latin. I'm not sure of the predominant pre-Christian religions in those regions, but I don't think we can just default them to Germanic. Of course, we can only get so granular, so some generalization may be needed.
Yeah, there's no good answer to a question like "Are the modern French people more Celtic, Latin, or Germanic?"
Ethnically, they're probably mostly Celtic, but Celtic religion and language was gone long ago—except in Brittany. But there are also genetic contributions from Latin peoples in the south and from Germanic peoples in the east and Normandy. Linguistically, French people are absolutely Latin, with almost no contribution to the modern French language from Gaulish or Frankish. The names "French" and "France" come from a Germanic people, and so does the general organization of the country, since the Frankish invaders were the one who founded what eventually became the Kingdom of France and then the French Republic. But the Franks didn't really introduce their pagan religion—they converted to Christianity early in French history. Speaking of which, the dominant religion of the French is Roman Catholicism, so Latin... but that doesn't mean much either, considering that Christianity is a missionary religion that can spread anywhere. Also, Roman (and Greek) culture influenced all of Europe, especially during the Renaissance, so the degree to which any European people is Latin may be overestimated. The real answer is that "the French people" is a concept that makes sense only when you combine all these influences together.
This is a theoretical question, since France will almost never adopt paganism in game. Maybe we should ask what kind of neopaganism would have been the most likely to take hold in France. Outside of Brittany, I'd say it's probably Olympianism. After all, the French words for the days of the week are based mostly on Roman gods: mardi = Mars, mercredi = Mercury, jeudi = Jupiter, etc.
For England, it's probably between Druidism and Germanic paganism (Asatru or whatever other name you want to give it, there are many: Heathenry, Theodism, Fyrnsidu, etc.). Both seem popular among neopagans.
Not sure about Spain and Portugal and their colonies, but the Latin influence is probably the strongest. Italy has to use Olympianism.
Ultimately the pre-Christian religion of France, Spain, and Portugal was probably some sort of Romano-Celtic syncretism, so you could probably make arguments for both. On cultural and linguistic grounds they seem more Romance than Celtic IMO so Olympianism makes more sense.
England should definitely be Germanic though, since the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms did bring over and follow their form of paganism for substantial amount of time.
The question of "who are the ancestors of the French" is also something that was answered differently depending on the political situation. The monarchy and parts of the aristocracy obviously stressed their ties to the Franks ("Louis" was supposed to be a derivative of "Clovis") while following the Revolution it became convenient to think of the Franks as foreign invaders of the actual French people. Latin influences were always the biggest, especially in the southern half, and the Enlightenment era was strongly influenced by a renewed interest in Rome. But Celts probably ultimately won that battle in France's modern popular imagination thanks to the use that was made of them as a nationalist symbol (in contrast to Prussia), especially under the Second Empire and Third Republic. "Our ancestors, the Gauls" used to be a motto in French schools. Vercingetorix and his doomed battle against Caesar became a popular romantic figure. And it's not exactly a coincidence either that post-WW2 France birthed Asterix as its most popular comic book hero.
Suggestion: make Clergy a viable option for pagan civilizations.
The easiest way would be to give it a bonus associated with pagan temples. For instance, faster pagan temple construction, or extra production with pagan temples. This bonus should be weaker than the Clergy effect associated with state religions, to encourage adopting a religion, but it should make Clergy competitive with Deification for pagan civs.
My rationale is that as long as you're pagan, there is zero strategic choice for religious civics, which is not interesting. Although Deification—i.e. where the king is a godlike authority over the local religion—is probably sufficient to represent most historical civilizations with an elaborate pagan religion, there are cases of pagan civs where the priestly class seems to have been somewhat separate from central political power. The Maya are an example, and arguably the Aztecs (the Aztec emperor was a priest, but as far as I understand he was only a priest for one of the gods, and wasn't deified). So players would be able to choose whether to emphasize central religious power or a the existence of a priestly class.
Clergy could also be used to ease the transition from paganism to a major religion once one has spread. Instead of converting to the religion and then have to switch out of Deification, or switching to a useless civic first and then adopt a religion, you could switch to Clergy, enjoy its (weak) benefit for your paganism, and then adopt a religion.
Hello I would like to suggest about japan. How about instead of having to settle all of japan, why not have independent cities to simulate the Japanese city-states and the reunification of Japan?
This also applies for England by having an independent 'Scotland" and 'Irish Kingdoms' respectfully
Another suggestion for Japan is by around the 1400s to the 1600s Japan can enter into a Sengoku Jidai period where as you the player will have to fight off the independent/barbarian/native Samurai units. Or around this period parts of Japan will become independent and you as the player will try to reclaim it, reunify Japan in the process.
While we're at it China can have his own warring states period once the Han Dynastie should supposedly collapse
I'm sure this would make the English, Chinese and Japan game a lot more interesting and also challenging
For a new dynamic name change how about add Tokugawa Shogunate for Japan during the renaissance era?
Barbarians spawns would help make Samurai more powerful.
I agree with you. The samurai has no real use other than defending your cities from nonexistent barbarians. Having barbarians or independents cities can be good for historical accuracy and help give experience to your units.
Its just like having independent cities as Turkestan and then having to conquer them all.
Well, i thought a little of this question, and i remembered this graph:
What has been the solution to the infant mortality?
One of the solutions was pox vaccine.
Some of the other factors decreasing infant mortality could be:
Hospitals could provide an additional health boost with electricity.
Leoreth, I suggested new thread in this forum. Revising Korean Units in RFCD VD Mod would be good for historical and variety
I think late game DOC needs a bit more content. I would suggest the revival of many more countries like how the Americas can be revived ( Aztec to Mexico) (Inca to Peru).
Here are my suggestions for some revival states and new civs in the late game
1.Tamils ( Sri Lanka)
3. Babylonians ( Iraq??)
4.Mayans ( Central America)
5.Kongo (the modern version of Congo)
6.Mali (a modern version of Mali)
7.A modern version of Indonesia.
8. An Australian CIv ( the Australian continent is just plain bare even with the British)
9. A new Zulu civ ( for Renaissance to Industrial) (South Africa in Global)
Since most of the South American civilization has been represented in the game, I think its time for Asian and African civs to be shown and represented.
Seeing modern geopolitics only occurring in parts of Europe and America seems a bit sad and somewhat Euro-Centric.
Yes this is something I also proposed a few pages ago and I would love to see it happen someday
For civs like the Tamils, Babylonians and the Carthaginians can better be implemented once the new map is coming out, since the current map has almost no room for them I don't know if they will function well. An Australian civ is a must have however for DoC! Currently Australia can be playable if you download 1SDAN or Merijns mod respectively. I do hope one day we have Australia in DoC.
The Mayans will already revive as the Colombians. A modern version of Indonesia already exist, they can respawn during the global era with Suharto as their leader
Modern Congo and Mali does kinda exist. They can respawn later in the game and they can have modern name titles such as Republic of Mali, but they don't have modern leaderheads.
There's already a topic going on about adding new African Civs in DoC. The Zulus where also mentioned in it.
I'm pretty sure the reviving thing is going to go away once Leoreth fixes the back-end to allow for more civs. It's just a work-around to allow more civs than we would otherwise be able to have. The new civ suggestions are great, but I don't think asking for them via the revive mechanic will go anywhere. I can't speak for Leoreth though, so you'll have to wait for more details from him.
No, that's exactly right.
Idea: Add "Steal World Map" as a spy mission.
I completely forgot about it.. well in that case we should wait and see how it all plays out. My apologies guys
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