Suggestions and Requests

Oh okay, we developers sometimes like when people just keep on discussing because so we can hear more and more well rounded ideas :)

Anyway, I think customization of pagan temples is not the way to go. More religions to represent polytheistic or other belief systems that fall under "pagan" right now is more likely. I'm still toying with the idea of having minor religions, although I don't know how they would work compared to the major religions. Which is exactly why I wanted to read more discussion ;) Some of the religion changes I mentioned a couple of days ago are part of making that possible in the long run.
 
To Imp. Knoedel:

What about swapping the workshop :hammers: and :commerce: for Guilds (civic) and Mercantilism around? -1 :food: +2 :hammers: + 1 :commerce: workshops still aren't too shabby for the medieval era. It'd make the workshops represent the trading company factories/factoreien/feitorias ( as their current commerce does too, I suppose).

To Sebzilla: That's correct, yes, but sadly civ fails to represent food transport - a proper system would require a lot of work.

My reasoning was that refrigeration (representing both fridges and advanced naval techniques) means you can fish further from the shore without your fish going rotten.
 
Maybe minor religions should work similar to corporations in that they provide some yield for cities they are in? Extra Gold for Judaism for example is a no-brainer. Culture is obvious too. They should spread automatically based on their historical locations as well as your civics. Obviously minor religions should be attracted by Civics like Republic, Egalitarianism and Secularism and spread slower or not at all in civs running Civics like Theocracy, Totalitarianism or Fanaticism.

Even if Guilds' effect gets changed to commerce instead of hammer for Workshops, the yields of two Watermills versus a farm and a workshop would be exactly the same even if we implement my idea of +1 Commece for Watermills by Engineering, which means Watermills still lose out because of the longer build time.
 
Yeah, you could add Sikhism, Jainism to the mix too, not sure what benefits they would give because I know literally nothing about either of those two religions. Hellenism would add culture or great peopleness? That last one might stack too horrendously with forums. Shinto could give a defense bonus as a representation of Japanese medieval military stuff, which would free up the UU slot to be a modern one as well (as was suggested in the Japanese rehaul thread). This is just wild brainstorming, don't expect me to defend any of these ideas if you rip them to shreds ;)
 
So, I have some specific ideas on the topic of religions, here they are for consideration. Some or part of these have been suggested before by other players, but here I am putting it all together.

New religions
First of all, I was thinking of how to "classify" civ-specific religions into not-that-absurd "groups", so as not to have one religion per civ. I propose to add 5 religions to the game: Animism, three different forms of polytheism, and bringing back Judaism.

"Animism" (could also be "shamanism") would represent African traditional religions (for pre-Christian Ethiopia), Asian Animism-Shamanism (for pre-Confucian China's Shen and Wu (folk) religions, Korea's Muism, Japan's Shinto; Mongolia's Tengrism), and Polynesian animism.

I would've proposed to split the above in three groups (African, Asian, Polynesian), but seeing that the African and Polynesian groups are represented each by a single civ, one of which only appears for the player while the other (Ethiopia) is expected to become Christian for their UHV (while Mali and Congo spawn with missionaries), I didn't see much point.

Now, greek-roman polytheism and norse polytheism are all descendants of ancient "Indo-european polytheism", and they have a lot similarities, so I would propose to represent them as a single group. I would have the Persians and the Indians start with this religion as well.

As for the Middle East, a "Nilo-Semitic Polytheism" would cover the beliefs of the Egyptians, Babylonians and Phoenicians. There's of course no such thing in real life, the ancient middle east religions (Mesopotamian, Cannanite, Semitic, Assyrian) were very distinct from the ancient Egyptian religion, but otherwise Egyptian religion would be restricted to a single civ.

Judaism should spawn in any of these cities when monotheism is discovered by these civs (or the predefined date for Jerusalem), Christianity should spawn nearby, as should Zoroastrianism (unless its auto-founded by Persia). I realize Judaism is not even a one-civ religion, but it is a minority religion for many the civs, which is why I think it should be there.

Finally, the Mayans and Aztecs basically shared the same religion. Incan polytheism was related, but a little bit different. An "Amerindian Polytheism" would work for them all.

I realize that "Indo-european polytheism", "Nilo-Semitic Polytheism", and "Amerindian polytheism" are horrible names, so, any other name could work. I'm definitely not opposed to having Shinto, Egyptian Religion, Tengrism, African folk religion, Polynesian animism, and the Inca religions represented on their own, if grouping them with the other nearby religions seems weird, nor to having Shia Islam as a separate religion. I'm also not advocating to add them. Another idea is to have a second, civ-unique building to represent a couple of these (e.g.: "Egyptian temple", "tori gate"). I'll mention Sikhism and Jainism below.

Holy cities
As for the holy cities, I would propose to leave only 5 to 7 of them, specifically these: Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Hinduist, Buddhist, (maybe) Confucian, (maybe) Zoroastrian. Note that the Christian one would not be specifically Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, but holy to all of them. Other religions (including Taoism) get no holy city (as they have no holy cities in real life… at least I don't think they do).

Temples
All religions have a unique "temple" building. All temples produce +1 happiness and +1 culture, but some have additional benefits (their hammer cost should also be different, animist shrines, for example, should be much cheaper than other temples). The following list is just illustrative:

Animist shrine: none.
Indo-european temple: +1 culture or +1 science?
Nilo-Semitic temple: +1 food or culture?.
Jewish synagogue: +1 commerce.
Zoroastrian fire temple: +1 science.
Christian church: +1 hammer.
converted to Catholic church: additional +1 commerce.
converted to Orthodox church: additional +1 science or hammer?.
converted to Protestant church: additional +1 science or hammer?.
Islamic mosque: +1 commerce, +1 science.
Buddhist stupa: +1 culture, +1 1 science.
Hindu mandir: +1 culture, +1 hammer.
Confucian pagoda: +1 science and (+1 commerce or +1 espionage).
Taoist pagoda: +1 health.
Amerindian altar: +1 hammer, +1 science.

Wonders & Cathedrals
The classical wonders that are currently linked to the Pantheon civic would be limited to the Nilo-Semitic and Indo-european polytheisms (some wonders, like the Parthenon only to the Indoeuropean polytheism, and others, like the Pyramids to the Nilo-Semitic religion), others can be to either (especially the Hellenistic ones, like The Great Library). The Pantheon civic itself could be changed to something else, for example a late-game (more or less forced) atheistic civic, which would go in nicely with communism and heavily secular countries.

Perhaps it would be interesting to see diplomatic-style wonders (like the Apostolic Palace) for Orthodoxy, Islam and/or Buddhism. These religions have institutions that have councils, determine doctrine, dictate rules, etc. Sikhism and Jainism could be represented with a wonder each (that have Hinduism as a prerequisite to be built).

I haven't given much thought to Cathedrals (and their equivalents), but I would propose, for the moment, that they can still be built by any civ that has 4 temples of the religion (for all religions).

Monasteries and Religion Spread
Monasteries would be restricted to religions that actually have monastic culture and/or religions that actively evangelized: all Christian religions, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism. The other religions (Animism, Indo-european, Nilo-Semitic, Amerindian, Zoroastrianism, Judaism) automatically spread to cities when they are founded if they are the state religion.

For example: China should start as "Animist", so their first cities have what we call "Chinese folk religion" automatically. When Confucianism is founded, China can choose to take it as state religion and then the automatic spread of Animism to newly founded cities stops; at that point Animism will not be deleted from cities where it is present and it will continue to spread through the current mechanism of ("random") religion spread. Same thing goes for Persia and India starting with Indo-european polytheism in their cities until they found Zoroastrianism (which I think shouldn't be upon-spawn as it is now) and Hinduism.

Now, since many of the smaller religions aren't practiced anymore (or minimally), I would propose for a mechanism that makes religions disappear just as they can spread. This would apply to all religions (including the "major" ones that are already in game), but with different probabilities depending on the religion, date and geography. As proposed elsewhere, inquisitors would be able to wipe out religions (player chooses which) from cities in your empire and outside of it (provided civics like Theocracy aren't present). However, no state-religion can disappear from your cities, and religions have less chance of disappearing under liberal civics (free religion, etc), but more chances of disappearing under "atheism" as civic.

State Religion & Civics
Now, all religions should provide different benefits when they are the state religion. Things such as extra specialists for Indoeuropean polytheism, extra research or food for Amerindian polytheism, extra commerce routes for Judaism, extra research rate for Confucianism, etc., could be some ideas.

Under certain religious civics, some religions should lose access to some resources (i.e., under more "orthodox" civics as opposed to more "liberal" civics). Islam should have no access to pigs, wine and tobacco; Judaism to pigs and seafood; Buddhism to wine and tobacco; both Hinduism and Buddhism to cows, sheep, pigs (and fish?).

Founding religions
As animism, indo-european polytheism, nilo-semitic polytheism, and amerindian polytheism should automatically appear with cities as they are founded (including the capital, before techs can be researched) I would propose to link them to very early technologies (perhaps even to agriculture or animal hunting) or I would propose that they have no tech prerequisite. Given that, I would change the name of the current "Polytheism" tech to something else and eliminate the "Monument building" tech altogether. Hinduism would appear then not with the tech "Polytheism" as it does now, but perhaps with "Priesthood". A non-divided Christianity should spawn originally, with an event triggering the Catholic-Orthodox schism and a second event triggering the Catholic-Protestant schism.

---
I hope I didn't miss anything and that all was clear. Obviously all numbers (e.g.: x temple produces y hammers) have to be balanced, as well as building costs and the religion-specific points (such as state religion benefits). So... thoughts on all of this?
 
Thanks for your thoughts. Some quick comments:

I agree with the idea that minor religions would obsolete the need for a Pantheon civic, but I would use the freed slot for something between religious civics and Secularism, such as Religious Tolerance, which could remove penalties from no-state religions without removing your own state religion. I think seeing civs like the Netherlands without state religion in the Renaissance looks wrong. Secularism might be renamed to something more definite, like Laicism, and get different effects.

I don't think Animism should be a minor religion at all, every society has some sort of religion which is best represented by the simple absense of an ingame religion. Other than that, I would propose the following, partially matching yours:
- Olympianism (Greece, Rome)
- Pesedjet (Egypt)
- Ennunaki (Babylonia)
- Shinto (Japan)
- Judaism (Levant)
- Sikhism (India)
- Tengrism (Central Asia)
- Mesoamerican religion (the name escapes me for the moment)

Zoroastrianism and Taoism might gain the minor religion status. Not sure if we need a pre-Abrahamic African religion, considering how close the spawn of civs there is to its spread.

I also like the idea of more religion specific effects, in particular to balance with Catholicism. I have something in mind for that which will reward you with these bonuses when you have a large religious unity. This will also dissuade strategies that rely on religion stacking, which you see quite often, e.g. China.

I wouldn't think about founding techs too much, I intend to at least partially move away from that principle anyway.
 
I agree with the idea that minor religions would obsolete the need for a Pantheon civic, but I would use the freed slot for something between religious civics and Secularism, such as Religious Tolerance, which could remove penalties from no-state religions without removing your own state religion. I think seeing civs like the Netherlands without state religion in the Renaissance looks wrong. Secularism might be renamed to something more definite, like Laicism, and get different effects.

Can't you just replace Scholasticism with Religious Tolerance? I really like this idea of enforced Atheism, for there is no God, only Watermill, and all those who eschew its glory in favor of made up entities deserve whatever punishment the flow of the river bestows upon them.

Edit: No never mind, scratch that, making the followers of the Watermill its own religion would probably be easier and could just make use of the Fanaticism and Theocracy civics.
 
You can use the half-made up word (not by me) "Teotlism" for mesoamerican religion (maya and aztec, but strictly it doesn't include incan religion).

I see your point with animism, but it makes me think that it leaves several civs at disadvantage, since they will take very long (if ever) to get one of the other religions and the benefits it brings. Most notably, the polynesians will be left out completely. I guess you wouldn't add a religion for them since they're a human-only game, but then maybe their UB could balance this. Vikings, Ethiopians, Phoenicians (and others?) would also start with no religion (but they could get one sooner or later).

There are also many present-day societies that practice animism-shamanism. From the top of my head, it's a significant minority religion in Indonesia, Korea, China, Siberia, around the Arctic circle, and all over Africa, Australia and the Americas. Point of this being that it isn't an extinct religion; there's more people practicing it than, say, Ennunaki or Pesedjet. But anyway, not that important. I'm happy to see these other religions you mentioned being considered.

What would make the difference between major and minor religion status?

Edit: I've seen "Intiism" (from Inti, the Incan sun god, +ism) used to refer to the Incan religion. Just an FYI.
 
Lovely post ozqar.

Other Apostolic Palaces sound good to me. Why not add a Dalai Lama mechanic and somehow encourage a late surviving Tibet to pick it up? It would give an otherwise fairly dull AI civ some really unique twist, where they remain leader of Buddhism for as long as they exist (after all, the Dalai Lama cannot be born outside of Tibet).

Sikhism and Jainism could be represented with a wonder each (that have Hinduism as a prerequisite to be built).

They already are (Harmandir Sahib and Khajuraho). I think Sikhism should be auto founded as a minor with Harmandir, for purely historical reasons rather than gameplay; it is one of the most prevalent religions in the world, and its addition would add a perfect incentive to build Harmandir Sahib as its intended owners, the Mughals (as they have religious tolerance as their UP). Also they have a really cool symbol, but mainly the other things.

Jainism... perhaps not or India risks being ridiculously overcrowded with religions (I suppose it would be accurate... right down to the unhappiness modifiers post-Mughal). And its spread was rather limited to India, whereas Sikhism has large minorities across the world - perhaps it would function as a late game Judaism, spreading in a large diaspora to large cities adding some sort of late game bonus to the European/American civs.

That's another point; does immigration carry religion with it? Because I think there should be a something% chance it should. Could be fun, is accurate.

I like the idea of a non-tolerating secularism - seems strange that secular USSR and China are fine with all those religions bouncing around. Perhaps retaining unhappiness modifier for religions but adding a prod bonus to cities without religion. But then I equally enjoy Leoreth's Religious Tolerance idea.

Definitely don't give the pantheons to early techs - what if China decided they'd research Egypt's tech? Make them auto found with the civs.

Finally, I enjoy Zoroastrianism as a major religion - it has a pretty fun URV and was one of the leading religions in the world for much of the history of civilization (and my marathon Rome game as the Zoroastrians is great fun). But a mighty yes to relegating Taoism, if not removing it altogether; all it adds is the opportunity for Carthage or Persia to accidentally ahistorically found it. When used historically it adds nothing to the game.
 
Just wondering, will these minor religions have a URV as well? And by minor religions you guys mean religions that the human/AI can't convert to?
 
Lovely post ozqar.

Lol, thanks

after all, the Dalai Lama cannot be born outside of Tibet.

I really like these subtle political statements (and agree).

There's a note on Buddhism, though (since we are being very religion-specific now), the Dalai Lama is only the leader of Vajrayana Buddhism (basically Tibet, parts of the southern slope of the himalayas, and ancient Mongolia). Theravada (South East Asian) and Mahayana (East Asian) don't see him as a leader (but don't have a religious leader of their own as symbolic as the DL). But yeah, I like the idea.

About having both Jainism and Sikhism as minor religions in India, they would finally make India's original 1st UHV in RFC of "Found 5 religions" doable in a historical context.
 
I hope that these new religions can be converted to (responding to above). It might not make sense for (human) Greece to have Olympianism in the 15th century, but the player shouldn't be forced to stick to the main religions of the game.

Maybe every civ starts with their unique local religion and for every organized religion in the city (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.) there would be +2 or +3 unhappiness. That way players can keep their old beliefs but at a disadvantage.

Again, this is based off of the fact that these new "minor" religions won't be available to the human.
 
There's a note on Buddhism, though (since we are being very religion-specific now), the Dalai Lama is only the leader of Vajrayana Buddhism (basically Tibet, parts of the southern slope of the himalayas, and ancient Mongolia). Theravada (South East Asian) and Mahayana (East Asian) don't see him as a leader (but don't have a religious leader of their own as symbolic as the DL). But yeah, I like the idea.

Indeed, and an Apostolic Palace for one is rather useless. If that does exclude it, it should definitely exclude orthodox Christianity as well - what with there being Greek, Russian, Coptic, Ethiopian...

Something else I forgot to mention: if we're adding all these other religions I vote yes to Sunni and Shia. Just as large an ideological gulf as Catholic and Orthodox and including three Christianities and one Islam feels a little Euro-centric to me. Make Iran spawn with Shia and put some much needed tension back into the Middle East post Seljuk (on a side note - what were the Mughals?)

EDIT: three minutes worth of research right here: holy city on 1700AD should be Baghdad (it's Karbala), the Mughals are Sunni, and in the biggest setback of the year so far: the Umayyads were Sunni but the Fatimids were Shia. Annoying.

(the Ilkhanate were Shia too, not sure if that matters as Mongols invariably end up Buddhist)
 
Wait, I'm confused now about that "the dalai lama can't be born outside of Tibet statement", its political implications, and what you meant. I actually think it would be better (for Tibetan buddhism) if he were to reincarnate in India or elsewhere, given the current situation there. The current DL has said that he might be reborn outside of China, while Beijing is really looking to selecting the next one, like they've done with the Panchen Lama. Was that sarcasm? Support for the PRC? Support for Tibet? Or a completely apolitical statement on a very controversial topic.

Point about the different branches of Buddhism and an AP-style wonder is that the leader could come from any of the civs (not only Tibet); same thing with the branches of Orthodoxy (the leader doesn't have to be the Patriarch of Constantinople).

I think that all religions should be playable (with or without the URV), regardless of their major/minor status.
 
Hmmmm therein lies the mystery... Nah it was meant apolitical, generally when I think about Civ stuff I don't think about modern events and in the past 700 years or so it's been fairly standard that they were born in Tibet. Hence why I said, as long as they exist - personally I think once Tibet is conquered the bonus should vanish, but it could relocate to another Buddhist country.


I think if not Tibet specific it should be specific to the wonder Potela Palace, requires Buddhism state relig and X mountains within BFC. I'm still at a loss for how it would translate from historical Dalai Lama though - a simple "AP for Buddhism" is just completely ahistorical. I think maybe we should think of alternate powers/functions than AP for this and Patriarch of Constantinople... but I have absolutely no idea what. I don't really know what pre-Kundun Dalai Lamas did.

EDIT: for the record, I'm pretty apolitical through ignorance on the subject of China; I'd like to say Tibet seems like it should be independent to me, but I have nowhere near enough knowledge on the situation to express any valid judgement... as with most international political things.
 
Reworked religious spread (basically just expanding on Leoreth's original idea)

Religions get Spread Points per city. When a certain threshold is reached the religion spreads to the city. When the spread points go below a certain point the religion automatically leaves the city.

Spread thresholds:
100 + n (For entering the city)
0 + n (For leaving the city)

Where N is the amount of religions present in the city

Effects on thresholds:

Permanent -2 per turn to balance other factors
-1 per turn per hundred spread points

+1 per turn per trade route with a city which has this as the dominant (most spread points) religion
+3 per turn per trade route with a holy city
+1 per turn for every religion present in a 3 tile range

+2 per turn if running Scholasticism
-1 per turn for non-state religions if running OR/Theocracy
+1 per turn for state religion if running OR/Theocracy
-3 per turn for non-state religions if running Fanaticism
+2 per turn for running Secularism/Religious Tolerance

Doubled spread points for new religions for 20 turns

Permanent +50 spread points per monastery/temple
Permanent +100 spread points per cathedral

Missionaries give a one time boost of +75 spread points.
Inquisitors reduce the spread points by 100.

Religious leaders

Religious leader points are calculated as following:

Permanent effects

+100 for owning the holy city
10 * your religious unity rating
+50 for owning the holy shrine
+10 per religious building

One time boosts:

This value decays with 5 + (RP/20) points per turn (on normal)

+40 for spreading religion with a missionary
+20 for performing an inquisition
+100 for building the holy shrine
-50 for starting a war against brothers of the faith
+100 for conquering the holy city (needs a system to avoid possible abuse by repeatedly conquering and releasing the holy city)

The religious leader is calculated every ten turns; whoever is first in ranking that turn gets the title.
Religious leader mechanic is disabled when only one civilization follows the faith.

Religious leaders get:
+1 relations from other civilizations running your faith
+1 :) from state religion
+5 stability
 
Good discussion, unfortunately I'm in a hurry right now so I'll reply in depth later.
 
The Dalai Lama is NOT the Pope of all Buddhists, and doesn't have the same equivalence as such.
He's only the leader of one sect of Buddhism and certainly doesn't speak for all Buddhists.
It's his celebrity that makes him important and not the actual role he fulfills so including a special mechanic for him is intellectually dishonest.
 
Also, I'd like to mention that Chinese folk religion is adequately covered by Taoism.
It's not exactly only relevant to one civilization either, Taoism has affected Corea
and it is the biggest and most obvious influence towards Shinto, fulfilling a role similar to Zoroastrianism's influence on the Abrahamic religions.
http://people.opposingviews.com/influences-taoism-confucianism-shinto-beliefs-9682.html
Furthermore, I'd like to bring up a point against having unique bonuses for different religions.
It's something that was worked on before, and I think I may have even taken part in it,
but it's not something I'd really like to see because it's not adequate to show how multifaceted these religions can be.
I distinctly recall someone saying that we should move Catholic Hammers to Protestantism because of "Protestant work ethic"
or some nonsense or whatever and can definitely forsee other such simplifications with other religions, god forbid the less understood ones.

Finally, no made-up terms. I'm glad you went out and did some cursory research (Pesedjet)
and I'm going to have to correct you on one. Annunaki, not Ennunaki.
But I think Teotlism is unacceptable. And we should continue searching for an extant term if we'd like to continue.
 
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