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Suggestions and Requests

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. calad

    calad Emperor

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    Actually I wanted to point out that Japan has not Budd, Tao or Confu as state religion but something domestic: Shinto. In game Japan is always Budd which makes little sense historical. What I did not write was that Japan should have atleast Budd and Confu religions in their cities, but no state religion because of Pantheon civic and they should have UB Shinto temple.

    Actually now I can suggest that each civ would have a special UB temple if they have Pantheon civic. UB temple would present their folk religion and each would have different bonuses. Rome/Greek Hellenism, Japan Shinto, Vikings Norse, Aztec Nahau and so on. It would be a small addon but would make game much more intresting and flavoured in my mind!
     
  2. char81

    char81 Warlord

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    I have a suggestion. Perhaps we could include a new religion called native religion/cultism/shamanism with no holy city to represent religion in the Aztec, Incan and
    Mayan empires (the religions were all similar). This religion would be auto-founded by the first civ to settle a city in the new world (Mayans). This religion would have special mechanics, as it would disappear once a new world religion spreads to the city (like in RFC Classical World). To make this work, conquerors would be changed to include missionaries from the majority religion in the discoverer's civilization. These missionaries would be equal to the amount of cities controlled by the native civ that was discovered. By doing this we can prevent Christianity from spreading into unconquered native land, but also simulate the effect the old world conquest had on native traditions. I think this would effectively solve the UHV problem, and even add a new dimension to the new world civs.
     
  3. trexeric

    trexeric (or backwards 'cirexert')

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    It would be interesting to have a similar mechanic for Hellenism, to represent the spread of Greek culture and, later, the Roman Empire, then see the paganism be replaced by Christianity (and Islam).
     
  4. CaterpillarKing

    CaterpillarKing Conqueror of Cacoons

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    Perhaps it could have a more complicated system then just a religion mechanic like Christianity. Perhaps certain places get a special boost to their pagan temples if they are built in certain areas. And civs like the Aztecs, Mayans, or Incans get large boosts to counter full religions and also, they can still build pagan temples even with a religion in their city.
     
  5. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    I'd like to propose some buffs for the Coast/Ocean tiles in this mod.

    Reasoning:

    Half of the world's population lives within 60 kilometres of the sea, which on the scale of this mod is in coastal cities. In this mod, a city living on bio-farms built on former Amazonian rainforest are capable of achieving twice the size of coastal cities.

    Proposals:

    New building:
    Port
    Unlocked at Astronomy
    33% of trade route yields are converted into :hammers:

    Refrigeration grants +2 :food: to seafood.

    Customs house grants +1 :commerce: to coastal tiles.
    (Note: this might be overpowered)

    Ecology unlocks Windfarm: coastal improvement which grants +2 :hammers:
    Cannot be built within 4 tiles of another windfarm.
     
  6. Daffy

    Daffy Prince

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    I like these ideas, especially the port.
    That would give many of those bad/mediocre coastal towns a imo much needed production boost.
     
  7. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    So, all those one tile islands would be the biggest population centers on Earth? Wasnt this why sea food was nerfed recently?
     
  8. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    1. Oceans were nerfed, not seafood.

    2. Since the only thing impacting food I suggested was the boost to fishing boats, it'd hardly make them 'the biggest population centers on earth'. In fact, if you had read my post completely:

    Giving the boost I suggested to seafood would in many cases not even make up for the recent ocean nerf in terms of total food.
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    It's still true though that most coastal population centers aren't on one tile islands, but on larger landmasses.

    This indicates that access to the sea is more important than the water tiles themselves. So I think approaches that buff cities by providing more or stronger buildings that require coast are preferable to buffs to water tiles, and would avoid the problem of benefiting island cities too much.
     
  10. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    Ok. Sorry.

    Should have been ocean.
     
  11. calad

    calad Emperor

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    I would like to debate more of pagan religions but since Leo is lurking I see no point of it.

    But about coastal cities: some buildings could be reworked to fit better into this mod. To fix problem of irrelevant coastal cities buildings like market, lighthouse, grocery and so on could give extra food if city has acces to sea.

    Also aqueduct could be more relevant. It has rather high hammer cost and it gives only +2 health. Problem is not the bonus itself but aqueduct unlocks pretty early and it is almost complitely useless until modern era when cities grow very large and health becomes a real problem.
     
  12. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    A fishery (or something likewise) building, unlocked only when a city is both riverside and coastal, giving a flat food boost, could achieve that goal.

    Another possible effect would be a bonus per fishing improvement (such as a specialist).
     
  13. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    I always build Aqueducts when I see Plague breaking out somewhere.

    You know, we really could use the +1 specialist per specific improvement mechanic for buildings a more often. It's a simply XML thing so no coding required, and I know FFH's Magistermodmod spams it for almost anything.

    We need to address the balance of civics btw. I noticed that the main reason for the watermill's current weakness lies in the relative overpoweredness of Farms and Workshops with the Agrarianism and Guilds civics. While I can understand the former since we need something to be competitive with Slavery before the Renaissance the latter is overpowered. There is simply no reason not to adopt Guilds as early as possible and stay in it until Free Market or sometimes even Central Planning comes along. The problem is that its only alternative before then is Mercantilism, which while greatly improved from its Vanilla implementation is still inferior. In fact I think I even saw a thread about its uselessness recently.

    The removal of the Watermill's second commerce didn't help matters either, but since that only applied in the late game we can ignore that for now as I want to talk about the Medieval to Renaissance improvements balance first.

    Currently, if you have two tiles to improve and want them to be food neutral you have two options:

    Farm + Workshop: 3H1C
    2 Watermills: 2H

    As you can see the former combination not only gives a higher production output, it throws in some commerce as well. That it also takes fewer worker turns to build is just icing on the cake. In this scenario one could argue that workshops plus farms are easily twice as good as watermills.
    (I'm ignoring Cottages on purpose because they are a special case, and while one can easily argue that they are underpowered as well they are not my priority right now.)

    Let's compare this with how it would look in Vanilla, or let's just say before the current implementation of Agrarianism and Guilds:

    Farm + Workshop: 2-3H
    2 Watermills: 2H

    Even back then Watermills were slightly worse actually, but at least there was nothing boosting farms and the civic giving an extra hammer had real competition, so if anything Leoreth's nerf of the Watermill just reinforced an already existing unbalance. And if we want to get technical and ignore the halving of its commerce output, he didn't even make the Watermill itself worse, he just made every alternative better.

    Now there's two ways on how to solve this: Either we redo Agrarianism and Guilds completely or we slightly boost Watermills, say by giving them +1 Commerce with Engineering. Assuming we go with the latter and return to our thought experiment of having to improve two tiles while staying food neutral, 2 Watermills now give the exact same yield as a farm and a workshop combined if we assume that one hammer equals one commerce. Actually, in most situations that is not true and one commerce is actually worse than one hammer, but at least now one could at least think of a scenario were two Watermills outperform a workshop and a farm, and that is you have too many workers lying around and value commerce over production, but not so much that you'd rather build a cottage.

    Conclusion: Watermills are currently so weak that even if we gave them +1 Commerce with Engineering, which would have been my favored solution apart from making them ridiculously overpowered provide realistic yields as in my self-deprecating totally historical mod, they would still be worse than most alternatives.

    My proposal: Do something about the Guilds civic. Either remove the +1 Hammer for workshops or make another civic in its timeframe competitive. Heck maybe we could try removing the +1 Hammer from the Guilds technology instead. You know what, let's think that through while assuming Engineering provides +2 Commerce for Watermills:

    Farm + Workshop: 2H1C
    2 Watermills: 2H2C

    There, now the latter for once provides a higher yield than the former. Since Watermills require more worker turns to build than all other non resource specific improvements apart from the fort, this is the first scenario I proposed in this post which is actually balanced.

    While I'm in the mood, let me just put up the following suggestions as well:

    Cottages now consume workers upon being built. This gives a nice new hammer sink to help with the lategame overproduction issue. To make up for it Towns now give extra defense and act as cities for resource connection, naval and aerial unit movement and combat purposes just like forts, and provide +1 Hammer with some lategame tech.

    Lumbermills get moved to some late Classical or early Medieval tech, so the player actually has some tangible benefit from not chopping down every single forest in sight immediately.

    Returning to my thought experiment from before the situation would now look like this:

    Farm + Workshop: 2H1C
    2 Watermills: 2H2C
    2 Lumbermills: 4H

    Hmmmmmm actually now Lumbermills look overpowered, but on the other hand you don't get the 30 hammers chop boost if you build them, so now it should be an actual choice between short and long term gains.

    Forest Preserves should provide +1 Commerce and gain another with Mass Media or Ecology. Currently there simply is no reason to build any of them whatsoever outside of your National Park city unless you are running Environmentalism. Also they should spread irrigation.
     
  14. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Add the Commercial Dock and Offshore Platform from Civilization III, respectively giving +1 commerce and +1 production on water tiles (and only available for coastal cities of course). Just like the Lighthouse.

    Specialists with Fishing Boats is a nice idea though. I, too, should make more use of that function with my own mod. So far, the National Museum (Hermitage) gives +1 specialist for every Quarry, but I see lots of potential for that XML tag.

    A national wonder with Guilds (or somesuch) giving +1 specialist for each Water Mill, perhaps?
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Huh? Do you want me to join the discussion or keep out of it?

    In my experience butting into certain discussions only shuts them down, so I refrain from doing so unless there is a specific reason not to continue talking about it.

    The problem is more that health from resources is too readily available, in my opinion. We've discussed this some time ago and I still intend to do something about it.

    I thought your idea of having more trade related culture buildings was already very good. Although increased improvement yield is also an option.

    I agree on that, we've made this observation during the watermill discussion.

    Balancing these civics and balancing the related improvements (including watermills) is one task in my opinion, which I hope I will get to shortly.
     
  16. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Why didn't I think of that? That would be perfect for my modmod! Only instead of a Natonal Wonder make it a regular building, make it be provided for free in all cities courtesy of Palace and make it provide TEN Specialists per Watermill! That oughta restore balance!
     
  17. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Well, my own mod does make the Palace spawn a 'Residences' building in all cities; for one, so that I can completely remove the yield of city tiles, and for two, so that Mercantilism can add one happiness and remove one healthiness from all cities.

    Giving that building three hundred specialists per Watermill would be an easy change. :p
     
  18. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    I think the health resource abundance and happiness overflow could both be handled by letting the AI be [like tech trading] more reluctant to trade resources. And making the trade terms worse.

    Another two options are:

    - Try to group resources more on the map. Less diversify for each civ.
    - Nerf vassals trade ratios for resources. They can trade away a whole bunch of resources for one crappy of your own. Vassals could just increase the willingness to trade resources, not the trade ratios.
     
  19. sebzilla

    sebzilla Warlord

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    If anything, Refrigeration should allow non-coastal cities to enjoy the benefits of seafood. Without it, fish/clam/crab resources should only affect the city they are worked in. No idea how codeable that is, though. Maybe railroad (actual linked cities, not just researching the tech) could also make a food network possible.

    edit: This of course would have the effect of reducing health benefits in the early/mid game, as wanted. Individual cites would have a greater diversity of health, rather than just settling near a new resource to bump your empire-wide rating. Grains are still easily transportable, maybe animal food sources could be an intermediate level, and then seafood is the hardest to move and keep fresh, resulting in historically large coastal cities initially and a greater ability to build land-locked metropolises in the modern era.
     
  20. calad

    calad Emperor

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    Personally I like when developers write some comments, like yay or nay! Or write a bit more does proposition have potential to be included or not.
     

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