Suggestions and Requests

[Leoreth]

Other Apostolic Palaces sound good to me.

I'll use this post to disagree with that idea. Institutional organization is a very unique aspect of (Catholic) Christianity. Furthermore, most other religions lack a number of canonical ingame civs to participate in such a mechanic.

That's another point; does immigration carry religion with it? Because I think there should be a something% chance it should. Could be fun, is accurate.

It does, but as with regular religion spread I want to move away from random effects.

Definitely don't give the pantheons to early techs - what if China decided they'd research Egypt's tech? Make them auto found with the civs.

Exactly why I'm wary of techs. Especially with so many new religions we'll run out of unique techs for every religion, and ways to arrange things so that historical civs are likely to found the right civs.

Finally, I enjoy Zoroastrianism as a major religion - it has a pretty fun URV and was one of the leading religions in the world for much of the history of civilization (and my marathon Rome game as the Zoroastrians is great fun). But a mighty yes to relegating Taoism, if not removing it altogether; all it adds is the opportunity for Carthage or Persia to accidentally ahistorically found it. When used historically it adds nothing to the game.

Just wondering, will these minor religions have a URV as well? And by minor religions you guys mean religions that the human/AI can't convert to?

Yes, and now I wonder if any distinction between minor and major religions really makes sense. Because I can't think of anything relevant that sets them apart. In any case, they should be able to become state religion, because that's the whole point of some of them.

I could see differences in how they spread and can be replaced over time, but that isn't really anything that needs to be advertised to the outside.

The way to found them could be another way.

Again, this is based off of the fact that these new "minor" religions won't be available to the human.

I think they definitely should be.

Something else I forgot to mention: if we're adding all these other religions I vote yes to Sunni and Shia. Just as large an ideological gulf as Catholic and Orthodox and including three Christianities and one Islam feels a little Euro-centric to me. Make Iran spawn with Shia and put some much needed tension back into the Middle East post Seljuk (on a side note - what were the Mughals?)

I tend to agree. The Mughals were Sunni by the way, which also suggests that Iran's conflict with the Ottomans wasn't as much about religion as their mutual propaganda would have liked you to believe.

Reworked religious spread (basically just expanding on Leoreth's original idea)

Religions get Spread Points per city. When a certain threshold is reached the religion spreads to the city. When the spread points go below a certain point the religion automatically leaves the city.

Yeah, that is basically my plan, but thanks for the suggestions of contributing factors.

Religious leaders

Religious leader points are calculated as following:

Permanent effects

+100 for owning the holy city
10 * your religious unity rating
+50 for owning the holy shrine
+10 per religious building

One time boosts:

This value decays with 5 + (RP/20) points per turn (on normal)

+40 for spreading religion with a missionary
+20 for performing an inquisition
+100 for building the holy shrine
-50 for starting a war against brothers of the faith
+100 for conquering the holy city (needs a system to avoid possible abuse by repeatedly conquering and releasing the holy city)

The religious leader is calculated every ten turns; whoever is first in ranking that turn gets the title.
Religious leader mechanic is disabled when only one civilization follows the faith.

Religious leaders get:
+1 relations from other civilizations running your faith
+1 from state religion
+5 stability

I like this idea, it is kind of similar to SoI's piety concept.

Also, I'd like to mention that Chinese folk religion is adequately covered by Taoism.
It's not exactly only relevant to one civilization either, Taoism has affected Corea
and it is the biggest and most obvious influence towards Shinto, fulfilling a role similar to Zoroastrianism's influence on the Abrahamic religions.
http://people.opposingviews.com/influences-taoism-confucianism-shinto-beliefs-9682.html

That's true, and brings up an interesting point. Maybe other religions could trigger the founding of certain new ones. For instance, when Taoism would spread to a city in Japan, Shinto will be founded in this city instead.

Furthermore, I'd like to bring up a point against having unique bonuses for different religions.
It's something that was worked on before, and I think I may have even taken part in it,
but it's not something I'd really like to see because it's not adequate to show how multifaceted these religions can be.
I distinctly recall someone saying that we should move Catholic Hammers to Protestantism because of "Protestant work ethic"
or some nonsense or whatever and can definitely forsee other such simplifications with other religions, god forbid the less understood ones.

I think it should be possible to individualize religions, even if the bonuses are not unique. I'm thinking more in terms of choosing some out of a set of available bonuses, similar to civics. Some of those may be common to all religions, while others could be unique to its religion as appropriate.

I agree though that we should be cautious and not stereotype religions into historical cliches.

Finally, no made-up terms. I'm glad you went out and did some cursory research (Pesedjet)
and I'm going to have to correct you on one. Annunaki, not Ennunaki.
But I think Teotlism is unacceptable. And we should continue searching for an extant term if we'd like to continue.

My names come from what I remember other mods using, sorry for the mistake. I think I have seen Teotl as a title for Mesoamerican religions somewhere too.

In any case, if a Mesoamerican religion is included a separate Andean religion is required as well.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

My names come from what I remember other mods using, sorry for the mistake. I think I have seen Teotl as a title for Mesoamerican religions somewhere too.

In any case, if a Mesoamerican religion is included a separate Andean religion is required as well.

My post was originally in reference to ozqar suggesting the term "Teotlism".

Teotl is the Nahua umbrella term for their gods collectively as a pantheon,
just like the Greeks call their gods the Theoi, the Chinese the Shen, the Japanese the Kami, etc.

Granted, the Pesedjet and Annunaki are just that too.

 

[need my speed]

Indeed (to the Teotl). Other mods use Nahuatl or Nahuatlism or such, but Nahuatl is the language. Some random suggestions I just thought up could involve the tlatoani of Tenochtitlán, or perhaps Huitzilopochtli, but really, there is no good name to my knowledge. I'd consider Teotl('ism') to be the best.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

For organized polytheistic religions that don't have an extant organizational name surviving into recorded history, I would personally format it like this:

(Annunaki) Worship
(Teotl) Worship
(Tuatha) Worship

Etc.

 

[ozqar]

@Tomorrow's_Dawn: There's at least two instances of "Teotlism" in google books that you can look up yourself. Using the word Teotl to construct Teotlism is exactly the same as using the word Tao to construct Taoism. When I said "half-made up word" I meant that it was a neologism that isn't popularly used, perhaps I made a poor choice of words. Actually, as you bring up that the Chinese use the word "Shen" for their deities, guess what, "Shenism" is also used to refer to Chinese Folk Religion. In any case, Teotlism is perfectly valid to use.

And this "Teotl Worship" format is very cumbersome, just as the terms I had proposed earlier of "Mesoamerican Polytheism".

@Need_my_speed: the other word would be "nahual" (different from nahuatl, check the ending). Nahual is a concept similar to "shaman", and nahualism could be used as well to name the religion. but, as you said, that's not as good as Teotl/Teotlism.

 

[ozqar]

Also, Leo, Shinto predates the spread of Taoism into Japan. Taoism indeed had a huge foundation on Shinto, and helped to shape the religion, but it would be best to have Japan spawn with Shinto (as all these other civ-specific religions - Annunaki, Teotl/Teotlism, Pesedjet, etc).

But in any case, Taoism is different from Chinese Folk Religion and from Shinto (even when they all share many ideas), and it doesn't really represent them (not in the context where we have other very specific religions for other civs). If, as Tomorrow's Dawn put it, Taoism is to Shinto what Zoroastrianism is to Christianity, then Shinto should be as much as an in-game religion as Zoroastrianism is.

I'm not very keen on this major / minor religion split, seeing that I think all of the religions we're talking about have been the equivalent of state religions for one civ or another at some point in history (Funny thing, Taoism is actually the only one for which I can't think of an example at the moment). I would be happier having them all just be religions and would be more comfortable with all of them having different attributes (presence or lack of a holy city, availability or not of monasteries, spread rates, disappearance rates, foundation requirements, effects from their temples and wonders, effects on their cities, synergies, unhappiness, attitude, and benefits from having them as state religion... to name some possibilities).

I think we're all aware that having them be all different is potentially dangerous, because we'll all be tempted to draw from stereotypes when we are describing them, but basically the game is full of these already and we don't mind. For example, in the original game (which has been removed from RFC), leader traits (agricultural, creative, etc) are basically a huge stereotype of the civs; another one, the civ's unique powers are another stereotype. I could go on, but it doesn't matter. The point is that these things have been put into the game and actually make it richer because they have been balanced and add a lot of options for the player. Having the unique religions is the same thing.

For example (which does not have to be used, just something from the top of my mind), if Islam is designed to have poor attitude from Catholic civs and Buddhism is designed to have positive attitude from Protestant civs, these are both reductions and plenty of exceptions could be found. These two things have also been sort of true and sort of based on history, and they could bring more diversity and fun to the game. If we're not being offensive with our simplifications and stereotypes, the game is still balanced, and we're not being ahistorical, then, I don't see why not.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

@Tomorrow's_Dawn: There's at least two instances of "Teotlism" in google books that you can look up yourself. Using the word Teotl to construct Teotlism is exactly the same as using the word Tao to construct Taoism. When I said "half-made up word" I meant that it was a neologism that isn't popularly used, perhaps I made a poor choice of words.

From my readings, Teotlism is only a proposed term and not an accepted one that has entered academic parlance.
We use Taoism precisely because of that.
If Teotlism catches on, I would be inclined to agree with you.

Actually, as you bring up that the Chinese use the word "Shen" for their deities, guess what, "Shenism" is also used to refer to Chinese Folk Religion. In any case, Teotlism is perfectly valid to use.

There is no such thing as "Shenism", the closest extant term for it is Shenjiao.

 

[ales_]

History Rewritten is, as always, a good source for religions, their names, shrines.

 

[ozqar]

I consider, for non-academic discussions (like this one), wikipedia to be a reasonably reliable source. So, from wikipedia:

The Chinese folk religion or Chinese traditional religion (traditional Chinese: 中國民間宗教 or 中國民間信仰; simplified Chinese: 中国民间宗教 or 中国民间信仰; pinyin: Zhōngguó mínjiān zōngjiào or Zhōngguó mínjiān xìnyăng), sometimes called Shenism (pinyin: Shénjiào, 神教), is the collection of grassroots ethnic religious traditions of the Han Chinese, or the indigenous religion of China.

If you have found a better term than "Teotlism", please, bring it up. If "Teotl" is the preferred option, that's equally fine by me. Otherwise, that's these are the best we have so far.

 

[strijder20]

Caveman 2 Cosmos uses Nahuatlism for the Aztec (which, aside from being derived from their language, also represents some kind of animistic aspect of their religion nowadays apparently) and Andeanism for the Incas. The latter is somewhat lame.

 

[ozqar]

Caveman 2 Cosmos uses Nahuatlism for the Aztec (which, aside from being derived from their language, also represents some kind of animistic aspect of their religion nowadays apparently)

Isn't that "nahualism"? That's what refers to the animistic aspect of their religion.

 

[ales_]

Here is the list of HR religions:
Pesedjet (Egyptian)
Anunnaki (Mesopotamian)
Ba'alism (Syrian-Canaanite)
Judaism
Christianity
Islam
Zoroastrianism (Iranian)
Hinduism
Buddhism
Confucianism
Taoism
Shinto (Japanese)
Olympianism (Greco-Roman)
Druidism (Celtic)
Asatru (Germanic/Scandinavian)
Shamanism (Siberian/Native North American)
Teotl (Mesoamerican)
Vodun (West African/Caribbean)

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I consider, for non-academic discussions (like this one), wikipedia to be a reasonably reliable source. So, from wikipedia:

The Chinese folk religion or Chinese traditional religion (traditional Chinese: 中國民間宗教 or 中國民間信仰; simplified Chinese: 中国民间宗教 or 中国民间信仰; pinyin: Zhōngguó mínjiān zōngjiào or Zhōngguó mínjiān xìnyăng), sometimes called Shenism (pinyin: Shénjiào, 神教), is the collection of grassroots ethnic religious traditions of the Han Chinese, or the indigenous religion of China. If you have found a better term than "Teotlism", please, bring it up. If "Teotl" is the preferred option, that's equally fine by me. Otherwise, that's these are the best we have so far.

Called Shenism by who?
I've never once ever heard anyone call it that.
Shenjiao actually has a meaning, "teachings of the gods" and people actually use that in discussion, Chinese people do anyway, but that's who and what matters.
We don't have an actual Nahua speaker here. That's that.
In lieu of one though, I'm not going to impose around "-isms" behind everything to make it a term. Teotl Worship is a neutral ground, and that's why I chose it.

 

[Leoreth]

Why not just Teotl? If it's the name of the pantheon, I think that is sufficiently descriptive of the religion.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Asatru (Germanic/Scandinavian)

This is incorrect. Asatru only refers to the modern practice and revival of old Germanic pagan traditions and it's wrong to use it in the context of the religion as a whole.
Granted, there isn't an extant name for the old religion (Definitely not Odinism, which is another modern neopagan movement) but I'm just pointing this out.

Also, Ba'alism is in the same boat with the Teotlism.
I've searched for any links to the Canaanite pantheon, and the closest terms I've found are Elohim (yes, the progenitor for the Jewish concept of it) and I'Lum.
Vodun is actually Vodoun as well, if you'd like to be proper with it.

Why not just Teotl? If it's the name of the pantheon, I think that is sufficiently descriptive of the religion.

If all else fails, I'll compromise and agree to just the name of the pantheon.

 

[ozqar]

Called Shenism by who?
I've never once ever heard anyone call it that.
Shenjiao actually has a meaning, "teachings of the gods" and people actually use that in discussion, Chinese people do anyway, but that's who and what matters.
We don't have an actual Nahua speaker here. That's that.
In lieu of one though, I'm not going to impose around "-isms" behind everything to make it a term. Teotl Worship is a neutral ground, and that's why I chose it.

Well, Shenism is used in "7980 google results", for example. Shenjiao, is of course more popular (43k results), but the other exists too. It's not my fault you've never heard the term.

About Teotl & Teotlism, I did not make the word up. And the "-ism addition" isn't an arbitrary imposition, it's a (very seldom used) neologism, like many other words when they're invented. There's no reason to get all mad about it.

And no, I'm not a nahuatl (that's the actual name of the language) speaker, but I do live in the one country where nahuatl terms are heard and used in everyday language. I could ask around for a better word to refer to the mesoamerican religion(s), but I won't get a different name than what I already mentioned. For most people, these religions are just called Aztec religion or Mayan religion. The people that presently practice some form of these or other indigenous religions refer to their belief systems as "La religión local", "La religión tradicional", or "Nuestras creencias" - terms that would be descriptive of nothing in the game. By your logic, even "Teotl" would sound ridiculous to describe the religion, because the people that practice the religion, the people that matter, don't use the term.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Well, Shenism is used in "7980 google results", for example. Shenjiao, is of course more popular (43k results), but the other exists too. It's not my fault you've never heard the term.

That's neither here nor there, but ok.
And thank you for proving which term takes precedence, not that I advocate Shenjiao being in the game.
Like I said, Taoism covers it just fine even though they're quote on quote, 'separate religions'.
They may be different as religions (Taoism, Buddhism, Shinto, Shenjiao, etc.), but you can't understand them in the same framework as organized Christianity or Islam.
The way they blend and syncreticize honestly needs a separate religion system.

About Teotl & Teotlism, I did not make the word up. And the "-ism addition" isn't an arbitrary imposition, it's a (very seldom used) neologism, like many other words when they're invented. There's no reason to get all mad about it.

I know the term has been proposed like I outlined in my earlier post.
It's not a good one though as it stands. You're assuming quite a lot of things from me though.
Like I said, I'd be perfectly willing to accept it if it became the academically accepted term.

And no, I'm not a nahuatl (that's the actual name of the language) speaker, but I do live in the one country where nahuatl terms are heard and used in everyday language. I could ask around for a better word to refer to the mesoamerican religion(s), but I won't get a different name than what I already mentioned. For most people, these religions are just called Aztec religion or Mayan religion. The people that presently practice some form of these or other indigenous religions refer to their belief systems as "La religión local", "La religión tradicional", or "Nuestras creencias" - terms that would be descriptive of nothing in the game. By your logic, even "Teotl" would sound ridiculous to describe the religion, because the people that practice the religion, the people that matter, don't use the term.

Well. That's because you're getting the answer in Spanish I presume.

 

[ozqar]

Well. That's because you're getting the answer in Spanish I presume.

Sigh. Those would translate to "The local religion", "The traditional religion" or "Our beliefs" - as you and anyone would've likely guessed already. Spanish is not that hard to decipher.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Then that's fine.

My point is that some religions don't have a name for themselves, operationally, as an organization.
That's something that's a conceit from Abrahamic religions and their influence,
the idea that adhering to your religion is mutually exclusive in regards to others,
the idea that others will be just as organized and structured as you.
Adding an "ism" to the back of it won't help officiate it anymore especially if it hasn't caught on,
which you wouldn't be able to say for Zoroastrianism or Taoism or Hinduism because those terms have been set before our time already and entered wide usage.
In the case where we just say: "Teotl" or "Tuatha" or etc., it's just the signifier of who/what is being worshipped.
It's not the case of what religion it is. Of course using "Teotl" as the name for the religion is silly.

It would work fine if Pantheon had slots, that determine what specific pantheon you are worshipping.
So Pantheon: Teotl, Pantheon: Olympian, etc. works fine because we aren't going to find a universal solution to this.

 

[ales_]

This is incorrect. Asatru only refers to the modern practice and revival of old Germanic pagan traditions and it's wrong to use it in the context of the religion as a whole.
Granted, there isn't an extant name for the old religion (Definitely not Odinism, which is another modern neopagan movement) but I'm just pointing this out.

Also, Ba'alism is in the same boat with the Teotlism.
I've searched for any links to the Canaanite pantheon, and the closest terms I've found are Elohim (yes, the progenitor for the Jewish concept of it) and I'Lum.
Vodun is actually Vodoun as well, if you'd like to be proper with it.

They're not my names, they're Xyth's. You can tell him if you want.