SeekTruthFromFacts
King
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 670
What do you mean by "backyard power" please? Google gives me purveyors of wind turbines....
Suggestions and Requests
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
LacsiraxAriscal
Below Settler
I don't think backyard power is a real phrase...
CaterpillarKing
Conqueror of Cacoons
Hasn't anyone watched the Backyardigans? That purple girl is terrifying. Back to the topic, did this Russia have a big army and resources? The one that spammed wealth.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I think what he meant was great power. As Imperial Russia was considered a contemporary great power on the tier of Austria, pre-WWI.
But yeah, it's not a real phrase, lol.
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Attention everyone, I have a bunch of serious suggestions. I propose we nerf the Wealth and Research (Culture too I guess) processes, as imo those should be a last resort after you run out of things to build, not an oftentimes superior alternative to actually building commerce multiplier buildings. Similarly nerf FailGold. The idea of it is to give you a compensation if you actually fail to complete a wonder, so investing hammers into wonders just to get gold should be a niche strategy at best. I suggest that for the commerce processes half of the production output is turned into the respective commerce type, not all of it. Only in a fully industrialized city, that is one with 100% hammer modifiers, should you be able to achieve a 1 Hammer = 1 Commerce conversion rate. FailGold should be nerfed even harder to compensate for stuff like Marble and Stone modifiers. You should only receive a quarter of production back in the form of gold, thus FailGold is never more efficient than building Wealth directly unless you have a boosting resource and the Organized Religion modifier.
My second proposition is that we please please please make the Industrial Park actually useful. Several hundred hammers for a free Engineer Specialist and lots of sickness just doesn't cut it. Maybe reduce the factory's output to 50% including power and give a 25% hammer modifier to the Industrial Park, either with power or by itself.
Thirdly, I want to do away with the idle worker. There's always gonna be times where you just have everything improved completely and your workers can't do anything but sit around or bulldoze and rebuild the same improvement over and over again, especially when you have cottages on most tiles. You could gift them to vassals or friendly civs, but the diplo bonus you get from it is barely worth mentioning. I see two possible solutions for this problem: One, to enable workers to be consumed by a city in some form, be it as population / a one time food boost, a one time hammer boost or a settled specialist of some kind, maybe citizen. The other possibility, which I prefer, is to make them be consumed by a certain improvement. What improvement, you might ask, and my answer is obvious: The cottage, seeing as it will grow to be the most powerful improvement of them all. Not only does it make sense from a gameplay pov but also a historical one: Players are discouraged from spamming too many cottages too early, preventing too early mass urbanization. If we take a civ like France or England, they would spend the Medieval age building Farms, Lumbermills, Mines and of course the glorious WATERMILL. Then, between the early Renaissance and the advent of mass colonization, when every tile they will control in the near future is improved and their workers have nothing to do, they can be consumed by cottages, representing a first wave of urbanization after the end of the Medieval age. They will have to train the odd worker after that to develop the New World and other colonies of course, but isn't an additional hammer sink in the late game something we desperately need? Anyhow, with the advent of the Industrial Revolution they will have to train a new batch of workers to place railroads, build some mines for newly popped up resources and fine tune some improvements. Once they are done with that those workers can be consumed for another wave of urbanization, which on a large scale in Western Europe did indeed take place concurrently with the Industrial Revolution.
What's not to like?
In addition I think we should also buff Towns a little to make them truly stand out as improvements, like so:
+1 Hammer with a modern era tech like Mass Media or Computers
+1 Hammer with some civic
+4 Commerce base
+1 Commerce with Printing Press
+1 Commerce with Railroad
+2 Commerce with some civic(s)
Acts as a city for combat purposes
+10% Local Tile Defense
(Carries Irrigation?)
Also while I'm at improvement yields I suggest we remove the base negative food from Workshops and instead only add it at some industrial tech like Steam Power. That way you don't have to compulsively have to have an early civic whose only purpose is to compensate for it being the worst improvement by far on its own. (Looking at you, Guilds.) It goes without saying that the glorious WATERMILL has to be buffed as well to stay ahead, or actually get ahead once more as it still isn't as good as it should be or was even as it was in Vanilla.
I suggest the following yields for Workshops and WATERMILLS:
Workshop:
-1 Food with Steam Power
+1 Hammer base
+1 Hammer with Guilds
+1 Hammer with Chemistry
+1 Hammer with Robotics
+1 Hammer with some civic
+1 Commerce with some civic
WATERMILL:
+1 Food base (Windmills give extra food too without having to run a special civic, so why not WATERMILL? Double Standard!)
+1 Hammer base
+1 Hammer with Replaceable Parts
+1 Hammer with Robotics
+1 Commerce with Engineering
+1 Commerce with Electricity
(+1 Commerce with some civic)?
Before you want to whine about how WATERMILLS make farms obsolete before Biology remember that WATERMILLS need almost twice as many worker turns to be constructed as farms, which is more important than you think if we implement my suggestion to do away with idle workers, effectively reducing the supply of available worker turns. Also farms have the Agrarianism civic boosting them.
There, that should do it for now. I await your good response.
Your faithful gamer,
Imperator Knoedel
My second proposition is that we please please please make the Industrial Park actually useful. Several hundred hammers for a free Engineer Specialist and lots of sickness just doesn't cut it. Maybe reduce the factory's output to 50% including power and give a 25% hammer modifier to the Industrial Park, either with power or by itself.
Thirdly, I want to do away with the idle worker. There's always gonna be times where you just have everything improved completely and your workers can't do anything but sit around or bulldoze and rebuild the same improvement over and over again, especially when you have cottages on most tiles. You could gift them to vassals or friendly civs, but the diplo bonus you get from it is barely worth mentioning. I see two possible solutions for this problem: One, to enable workers to be consumed by a city in some form, be it as population / a one time food boost, a one time hammer boost or a settled specialist of some kind, maybe citizen. The other possibility, which I prefer, is to make them be consumed by a certain improvement. What improvement, you might ask, and my answer is obvious: The cottage, seeing as it will grow to be the most powerful improvement of them all. Not only does it make sense from a gameplay pov but also a historical one: Players are discouraged from spamming too many cottages too early, preventing too early mass urbanization. If we take a civ like France or England, they would spend the Medieval age building Farms, Lumbermills, Mines and of course the glorious WATERMILL. Then, between the early Renaissance and the advent of mass colonization, when every tile they will control in the near future is improved and their workers have nothing to do, they can be consumed by cottages, representing a first wave of urbanization after the end of the Medieval age. They will have to train the odd worker after that to develop the New World and other colonies of course, but isn't an additional hammer sink in the late game something we desperately need? Anyhow, with the advent of the Industrial Revolution they will have to train a new batch of workers to place railroads, build some mines for newly popped up resources and fine tune some improvements. Once they are done with that those workers can be consumed for another wave of urbanization, which on a large scale in Western Europe did indeed take place concurrently with the Industrial Revolution.
What's not to like?
In addition I think we should also buff Towns a little to make them truly stand out as improvements, like so:
+1 Hammer with a modern era tech like Mass Media or Computers
+1 Hammer with some civic
+4 Commerce base
+1 Commerce with Printing Press
+1 Commerce with Railroad
+2 Commerce with some civic(s)
Acts as a city for combat purposes
+10% Local Tile Defense
(Carries Irrigation?)
Also while I'm at improvement yields I suggest we remove the base negative food from Workshops and instead only add it at some industrial tech like Steam Power. That way you don't have to compulsively have to have an early civic whose only purpose is to compensate for it being the worst improvement by far on its own. (Looking at you, Guilds.) It goes without saying that the glorious WATERMILL has to be buffed as well to stay ahead, or actually get ahead once more as it still isn't as good as it should be or was even as it was in Vanilla.
I suggest the following yields for Workshops and WATERMILLS:
Workshop:
-1 Food with Steam Power
+1 Hammer base
+1 Hammer with Guilds
+1 Hammer with Chemistry
+1 Hammer with Robotics
+1 Hammer with some civic
+1 Commerce with some civic
WATERMILL:
+1 Food base (Windmills give extra food too without having to run a special civic, so why not WATERMILL? Double Standard!)
+1 Hammer base
+1 Hammer with Replaceable Parts
+1 Hammer with Robotics
+1 Commerce with Engineering
+1 Commerce with Electricity
(+1 Commerce with some civic)?
Before you want to whine about how WATERMILLS make farms obsolete before Biology remember that WATERMILLS need almost twice as many worker turns to be constructed as farms, which is more important than you think if we implement my suggestion to do away with idle workers, effectively reducing the supply of available worker turns. Also farms have the Agrarianism civic boosting them.
There, that should do it for now. I await your good response.
Your faithful gamer,
Imperator Knoedel
Lost hammers to wonders: yes.
Industrial park: It's ok as it is. 2 free engineers would OP without a fair malus. +1-2 free specialists is what world wonders do, thus industrial park would be a national "world wonder" without the malus.
Workers: Never had this problem. In industrial age they build railroad (and workshops under central planning). They became less useful in renaiscence, after assigning lumbermills to guilds. However, I would agree if they could join cities (adding to food or pop points).
Cottages: It's balanced as it is. I have played several games using cottages economy, it is completely balanced. What you propose would make it OP. (It seems you forget levees and egalitarianism)
Workshops: No. +4/+5
is OP for improvements (in my Thai game the 3 cities Thailand was as productive as Germany due to workshops).Wind/watermills: Hills need a food improvement. Windmill right now fits the most. However, this need isn't present for plain tiles. Thus windmills had the food bonus and watermill not. We can let pastures be buildable in hills and give +1 food, so that windmills and watermills can become somewhat equivalent.
ezzlar
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,846
Nice ideas. Dont think AI can handle worker consumed for cottage. Specially since they tend to change improvments.
I also think cottage improvement is too strong. A nice balance would be that next level of improvement for the cottage is allowed by certain techs.
I also think cottage improvement is too strong. A nice balance would be that next level of improvement for the cottage is allowed by certain techs.
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Lost hammers to wonders: yes.
Industrial park: It's ok as it is. 2 free engineers would OP without a fair malus. +1-2 free specialists is what world wonders do, thus industrial park would be a national "world wonder" without the malus.
Workers: Never had this problem. In industrial age they build railroad (and workshops under central planning). They became less useful in renaiscence, after assigning lumbermills to guilds. However, I would agree if they could join cities (adding to food or pop points).
Cottages: It's balanced as it is. I have played several games using cottages economy, it is completely balanced. What you propose would make it OP. (It seems you forget levees and egalitarianism)
Workshops: No. +4/+5
Wind/watermills: Hills need a food improvement. Windmill right now fits the most. However, this need isn't present for plain tiles. Thus windmills had the food bonus and watermill not. We can let pastures be buildable in hills and give +1 food, so that windmills and watermills can become somewhat equivalent.
I'm not suggesting another free specialist, as far as I'm concerned the current free engineer can be removed if the Industrial Park instead gets a % Production modifier.
Well but cottages would be a bit weaker if you had to sacrifice a worker every time you build one, hence the buff.
You do realize that currently Workshops can give +5 Hammers with civics? If anything my suggestion is a slight nerf because I want to do away with the redundant civic providing an extra hammer. The boost at Robotics is irrelevant for 95% of the game.
But but WATERMILL! WATERMILL needs to be at least slightly better than windmill due to the simple reason that it needs more worker turns to be constructed.
But that's the thing: If cottages consume workers the AI doesn't have any workers to bulldoze over them. It's the perfect solution for AIs rearranging improvements all the time!
LacsiraxAriscal
Below Settler
Turned forever hand in hand...
I like a lot of these ideas, though not sure we need to improve the cottage radically - it's already most people's weapon of choice.
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
It won't be once you need to sacrifice a worker for them. Hence the buff to counterbalance that nerf.
Malchar
Prince
The fact that you can have armies enter jungle tiles only if they are improved can create some weird situations. If you're attacking someone, you can get into a situation where your army is trapped if you pillage improvements. Playing as Japan, my vassal Thai and I were attacking India. Thai pillaged the Indian improvements near the border, which meant that my army couldn't return back home. If India is losing the war, then it would be beneficial for them to have their own improvements destroyed so that they can't be attacked.
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Peace... What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... Unh!
Seriously, why are defensive pacts treated as more important than peace treaties? In my current Russian game I had a situation where I returned to war almost immediately with someone who even gave me a city for peace just the turn before due to defensive pact shenanigans. There was another game, with me as Phoenicia, where I had an early war with Rome for some reason or another and made peace right before their conquerer event against me happened, receiving a ton of gold from them IIRC. Peace Treaties are a joke in this mod. Someone more dedicated to playing the system than me could probably demand tribute from a civ and go to war against them immediately afterward by pulling a string in a defensive pact web somewhere, this having their cake and eating it too.
Seriously, why are defensive pacts treated as more important than peace treaties? In my current Russian game I had a situation where I returned to war almost immediately with someone who even gave me a city for peace just the turn before due to defensive pact shenanigans. There was another game, with me as Phoenicia, where I had an early war with Rome for some reason or another and made peace right before their conquerer event against me happened, receiving a ton of gold from them IIRC. Peace Treaties are a joke in this mod. Someone more dedicated to playing the system than me could probably demand tribute from a civ and go to war against them immediately afterward by pulling a string in a defensive pact web somewhere, this having their cake and eating it too.
No. The point of cottages is that if you show affection and patience, if you protect it from plague and invaders, you will have a very strong improvement. The most strong improvement should be the town. No need to punish good parentship.
The problem with AI workers is that they don't communicate. It is the an application of anarchy, which leads to oscilations. For example a city needs a farm, nearby workers will go to build a farm,... one farm each in different tiles
!The solution would be to make AI workers communicate somehow. Maybe AI workers should improve only one tile per city as follows:
If a worker is working in the city radius, then the new worker will join the old worker helping him with what he builds.
ezzlar
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,846
How early in civ time line is it realistic that a city is surrounded by towns? Cities are kept down size wise by health effects, it´s strange if nearby settlements are larger.
LacsiraxAriscal
Below Settler
This.
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