But take for example the US, in civ terms, their worst enemies in the last century would've been Germany, Japan, Russia, maybe Iran and Arabia. None of those are their neighbors.
And I guess that under the new circumstances, England and France could never ask the US to DoW Germany in a WW2 context?
As of now, there is lots of consideration to add new resources, mainly about happiness problem. There could be too many excess resources that happens from too many resources.
Therefore, I'd like to suggest super-resources that does not grant happiness as effect, but instead some sort of effect similar to UP. This resources is unique and available in very limited amount in the world.
This resources has to be:
- Exclusive, if was under monopoly is better.
- Really valuable
- Hard to get
The effect will be designed for civilization that are historically supposed to control it. The effect also deteriorate through time, as the resources is more cultivated and available worldwide, therefore reducing the effect.
Some examples, also with what civilization it should give effect to, locations and spread to:
- Silk, China, China, Europe
- Frankincense, Ethiopia, Southern Arabia, Europe
- Cloves, Netherlands, Ambon, Tanzania-Caribbean
- Cinnamon, India, near Calcutta and near Pagan, Madagascar-Indonesia-China
- Rubber, Brazil/Portugal, Brazil, Malaysia-Sumatra
- Opium, Greece/Babylon/Egypt, Southwestern Europe, Afghanistan-Pakistan
- Cocoa, Aztec, Mesoamerica, Europe?
I will use Silk as example.
SILK
- Available from Ancient Era
- Gives special effect tailored for China, especially UP-like effect for early China
- Effects deteriorate by half or more as the owner reaches new era, until the effect is gone for good.
- Spread slowly to where the resources is currently located, until it is no longer valuable. In this case, Silk will spread to Korea when China reaches Classical Era, and reaches India when India reaches Classical era.
Spoiler:
Wikipedia said:
The Emperors of China strove to keep knowledge of sericulture secret to maintain the Chinese monopoly. Nonetheless sericulture reached Korea with technological aid from China around 200 BC, the ancient Kingdom of Khotan by AD 50,[15] and India by AD 140.
That's just a concept that pass through my mind at lunch today. Feel free to modify/suggest something else inspired by this in new thread if necessary. I know that there's a lot of resources that was really valuable that it changes the world (Silk Road, Cinnamon Route, Incense Road, Spice Trade, Opium War - you name it). If the effect is so beneficial to a civilization, and especially if the resource is exclusive to one place, it will be a great motivation to colonize, war, etc.
Shouldn't those resources still give happiness? From a realism perspective at least.
I like the idea of bonuses giving some kind of benefit if you have some sort of monopoly on them. Reminds me of the "trading in X" effects from EU3. It would give some incentive to keeping your resources so that trading surplus resources away would become an actual trade off.
However, stuff like silk and spices were actually traded to places where they are not native. If states that produced them gained wealth by producing and trading these resources it seems counterintuitive to reward them for keeping them.
Leoreth, what do you think about the army size/population limit that Srpt introduced in RFCCW?
And also, strategic resources: There is only need for one. This doesnt simulate well real world hunger for critical resources. Do you think adopting a CiV approach to number of units supported by one resource is the way to go?
Shouldn't those resources still give happiness? From a realism perspective at least.
I like the idea of bonuses giving some kind of benefit if you have some sort of monopoly on them. Reminds me of the "trading in X" effects from EU3. It would give some incentive to keeping your resources so that trading surplus resources away would become an actual trade off.
However, stuff like silk and spices were actually traded to places where they are not native. If states that produced them gained wealth by producing and trading these resources it seems counterintuitive to reward them for keeping them.
Ah, I just realized my own inconsistency here. I wrote Cloves to have effect tailored for Netherlands, but I made Silk effect is for China instead of Byzantine ._.
I remember years ago when I asked you how about adding new resources (wasn't it about Camel vs Horse? idr) and you said the main problem with resources is excess happiness; so I now tried to come up with solution for new resources that doesn't give happiness.
The problem is, Spices are everywhere. However spices that start colonial era are 'special' spices like Cinnamon in Malabar-Burma and Clove, Nutmeg, Mace in Ambon. If we differentiate these spices from other spices, and add special effect that really encourage colonization (esp by England and Dutch, respectively), I this is a potential idea. The same goes for Textile.. textiles are everywhere (let's say it's represented by Dye) - but the textile that connect the 'East' and the 'West' are Silk from China.
How about this:
Normal happiness effect for original owners
Special effects for new owners
Therefore Silk, Cloves, Cinnamon will have normal values for China, Indonesia and India.. however, when these resources are acquired (in any way: by trade, by war, by colonization, etc) by Byzantine, Netherlands and England; these resources have special powerful effect for them.
But take for example the US, in civ terms, their worst enemies in the last century would've been Germany, Japan, Russia, maybe Iran and Arabia. None of those are their neighbors.
And I guess that under the new circumstances, England and France could never ask the US to DoW Germany in a WW2 context?
I think that makes sense within its time frame and map scale. However, large civs already have enough advantages in RFC. I doubt such a mechanic would help against the true problem, which is great powers having excessive armies.
And also, strategic resources: There is only need for one. This doesnt simulate well real world hunger for critical resources. Do you think adopting a CiV approach to number of units supported by one resource is the way to go?
I remember years ago when I asked you how about adding new resources (wasn't it about Camel vs Horse? idr) and you said the main problem with resources is excess happiness; so I now tried to come up with solution for new resources that doesn't give happiness.
Yeah, however I don't think it makes a lot of sense not to have these resources give happiness.
The problem is, Spices are everywhere. However spices that start colonial era are 'special' spices like Cinnamon in Malabar-Burma and Clove, Nutmeg, Mace in Ambon. If we differentiate these spices from other spices, and add special effect that really encourage colonization (esp by England and Dutch, respectively), I this is a potential idea. The same goes for Textile.. textiles are everywhere (let's say it's represented by Dye) - but the textile that connect the 'East' and the 'West' are Silk from China.
Most spices in the game actually represent that sort of rare spices (from a European perspective). It's not as if its meant to represent parsley and the like. I agree that the category is a bit generic and a split into cloves/cinnamon/nutmeg makes sense, but as you know, the happiness effect.
How about this:
Normal happiness effect for original owners
Special effects for new owners
Therefore Silk, Cloves, Cinnamon will have normal values for China, Indonesia and India.. however, when these resources are acquired (in any way: by trade, by war, by colonization, etc) by Byzantine, Netherlands and England; these resources have special powerful effect for them.
That could work, although I'd like a more general solution to assign "special" resources to civilizations. Hardcoding them to particular civilizations is not very elegant or intuitive.
I think that makes sense within its time frame and map scale. However, large civs already have enough advantages in RFC. I doubt such a mechanic would help against the true problem, which is great powers having excessive armies.
for the record, I wasn't trying to give large civs an advantage. I was actually trying to limit large civs army sizes. once I tried it though I found that the extra importance of population made the game feel more realistic.
Most spices in the game actually represent that sort of rare spices (from a European perspective). It's not as if its meant to represent parsley and the like.
We had a different perspective!
I always thought that "Spices" here also include common kitchen spices like garlic, onions, parsley, rosemary, salt, pepper, etc..
That could work, although I'd like a more general solution to assign "special" resources to civilizations. Hardcoding them to particular civilizations is not very elegant or intuitive.
How about tying it to the Trading Company building instead? Acquiring Cloves/Cinnamon/Rubber/Cacao brings special additional effect for the TC building in Netherlands/England/Portugal/Spain respectively. Therefore TC will be a very powerful building with 3 tier of effects:
- Base effect: settler/conqueror
- Colonial resource effect: the current effect that grant happiness or something (I forgot) when acquired certain New World resources
- Special resource effect: acquired when the civilization acquire a special resources (like when Netherlands acquire Cloves)
Meanwhile, perhaps the additional spices should be just pure graphic only, having exactly the same effect like other Spices, and for non-TC civilization, having 1 Spices and 1 Clove have the same effect as having 1 Spices only (Clove is treated as Spices, therefore no happiness from different resources generated).
We had a different perspective!
I always thought that "Spices" here also include common kitchen spices like garlic, onions, parsley, rosemary, salt, pepper, etc..
Pepper maybe, but considering the resource placement on the map I don't think it's anything else.
How about tying it to the Trading Company building instead? Acquiring Cloves/Cinnamon/Rubber/Cacao brings special additional effect for the TC building in Netherlands/England/Portugal/Spain respectively. Therefore TC will be a very powerful building with 3 tier of effects:
- Base effect: settler/conqueror
- Colonial resource effect: the current effect that grant happiness or something (I forgot) when acquired certain New World resources
- Special resource effect: acquired when the civilization acquire a special resources (like when Netherlands acquire Cloves)
That's just another way of hard-coding special effects to special civilizations, imo. And come to think of it, maybe it's best to do this sort of thing with quests.
Meanwhile, perhaps the additional spices should be just pure graphic only, having exactly the same effect like other Spices, and for non-TC civilization, having 1 Spices and 1 Clove have the same effect as having 1 Spices only (Clove is treated as Spices, therefore no happiness from different resources generated).
That would definitely be a way to do it. I was thinking about grouping several resources into one complementary group anyway (grain, seafood, meat, and so on).
That would definitely be a way to do it. I was thinking about grouping several resources into one complementary group anyway (grain, seafood, meat, and so on).
If that goes ahead, could we see a more realistic seafood mechanic (and maybe food resources in general). Coastal cities should benefit from seafood with extra health, but those inland should not until some later technology, probably railroad rather than refrigeration. You also shouldn't be able to trade seafood with other civs until that time. Grain is obviously much less perishable, and makes sense with Rome relying on the empire for grain and so on. This would help concentrate population growth around the coast, as is accurate.
A while ago, we discussed how resources would only provide or with certain buildings, but not by itself. Is this still an option? It would halve the and from resources.
Personally, I'm looking for a way to make 'build Factories everywhere the moment they're available' a terrible strategy (hey, remember Stalin?). I really don't like a minus food bonus, so I gave all Factories and power plants -1 happiness and -1 health (or something like that, and I probably gave Factories another -1 happiness with Free Market). I'm looking for better solutions, but oh well.
You could do the same for quite a few buildings, I suspect. Especially if you make use of '-1 happiness / health with resource'.
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with certain buildings, but not by itself. Is this still an option? It would halve the 
