SUL3: Sullla's Training Day Game

My suggestion is to switch St. Petersburg to settler, while swapping workers between flood plain and forest to get it out as fast as possible (remember, it needs to both grow to size 3 and produce 30 shields for the settler. The goal is to time it so both occur at the same time). The new city should build a worker, because we need that more than a warrior. Our primary goals from the workers are to 1) connect the three cities and the dyes. 2) irrigate those flooplains near St. Pete's - it will grow twice as fast if that's done - 3) mine the bonus grassland near the new city so it gets 2/shields a turn instead of 1. That list is not in order of priority; these are all of more or less equal importance. And hope for more techs from goody huts! :cool:
 
Just so you know it is 10:15PM where I live. If he gets done while I'm sleeping, I won't be able to play until approximately 4:30PM my time Tommorrow (school and miscellaneous activities).

Just so you know
 
How long do you get for the game, just curious (not asking about Eric, I just want to know)
 
While I don't plan on enforcing any hard line time limits, if someone has not posted at least a "got it" message within two days, they should be skipped to keep the game moving. Three days is a good amount of time to actually play the game after posting "got it", although I would like to see (ideally) a turn played once per day so that each of you doesn't get too detached from the game.

Eric Mesoy picked up the game yesterday. He has until Sunday morning to post his report (though I hope to see it sometime today); it will pass to Imhotep if not posted by then.
 
Sheesh, dont I get a little break with the forum downtime?


0: 2550 BC. I, Erik Mesoy, survey the Russian Empire over which I have been given control. The last leader died in the jungle- reportedly by disease, but we know that he was assassinated by the evil French. I decide to take control of the empire. AS the first act of my reign, I increase science spending to 90%. We will learn how to ride these horses 160 years earlier. (enter)
1: 2510 BC. I decide to reassign the birthplace of our saint, Piotr, to build a settler, that we may spread the word of our noble saint to other cultures. All seems well in the empire. I look out to the edges- lo and behold! Our eastmost scout has sighted a primitive tribe, and our warrior is taught the secret of Alphabet by another primitive tribe,
2: 2470 BC. Our wondrous capital of Moscow has built a training ground, and in honour of this, I start training a warrior there. The eastermost scout is received as a hero by the minor tribe, and given riched to the total of 25 gold.
3: 2430 BC. A segment of the grand road leading between our capital and the birthplace of our noble saint Peter is complete. I align the workers for the last segment, which will also bring in Dyes to our cities.
4: 2390 BC. In the new barracks of Moscow, our warrior is now trained. I decide for a settler to be built- it will be completed just as our people grow numerous again. The workers will complete a road in that same year. Our eastermost scout sends word that another primitive village has been sighted.
5: 2350 BC. I feel in the prime of my life. Kiev has trained a warrior, and just as this happens, the French move a warrior up to our borders- a sign? This must be the very unit who assassinated our previous leader! I go to my office and ponder for a period of time, where I notice that I have received some tribute from Babylon. A box of what appears to be Incence, with the label of "Pungent Weed". I set fire to one, and feel much better. I decide that the french must be destroyed, and I therefore declare a state of war with them. (Just kidding, that would be too weedy!) The scout of the east reports that the minor tribe have given him a map of their region, and there is Ivory there!
6: 2310 BC. An uneventful turn. However, our western scout reports of yet another primitive tribe, and several large packs of elephants.
7: 2270 BC. The primitives to the west were more advanced than it would have seemed, for thy have taught us the craft of working Iron ore.
8: 2230 BC. We have mastered the crafts of riding horses. I ponder the options, and decide to learn to record history on material- an art called Writing. I decide to investigate into the craft that the tribe taught us, and we have 3 sources of the Iron ore in nearby locations. One lies 7 years march (7 tiles) south of Moscow, the other is 5 years march northeast of Saint Peters birthplace and the last is off to the northeast.
Now to our troops. The warrior who was instigating Babylon sees the dwelling of a primitive tribe from the top of a mountain. Our western scout sees nothing of notice, and our eastern scout has made contact with a warrior who has sworn fealty to a people calling themselves Japanese. They do not know of Masonry, Alphabet, pottery, the working of iron, mysticism, or the riding of horses. He has two cities, and he appears to have dyes. TO show our goodwill, I grant him 6 gold.
9: 2190 BC. Nothing of note happens this turn. The eastern scout near "Japan" has seen a great sea.
10: 2150 BC. A settler is produced in Moscow. I decide to train a spearman, that our warriors may explore the world. The Goths of the north grant us 25 gold.

Yee-ha! Expansionist was pretty useful here! Alphabet, Iron Working, and 50 gold. We will probably want republic. We WILL want writing.

Edited away the attachment.
 
Erik, I did not mean to offend you by posting a time limit for your turn. Imhotep asked me about it, and I decided that 3 days should be plenty of time. You will note that I gave you until Sunday morning to post the game, so you were not close to running out of time at all. But I think it is in the best interest of the game and for the players that it move rather quickly, so that each person feels more "in the game" so to speak, and can learn more from it by remembering what happened on the last turn, etc. That being said, let's go on to my critique. :)

OK... nothing really BAD was done here, but as I would expect, some small things could have been done better. Let's start with Moscow. I'm not going to fault you for building a settler, because expansion is always a good thing in the early game. However, I specifically argued for letting Moscow grow so that it could produce a good amount of shields and crank some troops for the other cities. Now Moscow is back to size 1, will take 10 turns to grow back to size 2, and will produce only 3 shields/turn during that span. That's a lot of shields lost, though having a settler essentially justifies it.

St. Petersburg has been managed pretty well, and a settler was definitely the thing to build next there. Irrigating its floodplains will be the #1 priority for workers next. Speaking of which...

...I argued for Kiev to build a worker first, and instead a warrior was built. A warrior is not a bad choice, but it doesn't really do anything for us because 1) we've encountered NO barbarians with our scouts yet, meaning they must be turned off (I had barbarians on random) and 2) the other AI civs are not going to attack anytime soon with so much land to settle. The only reason why I ever build warriors is for military police, which Kiev definitely does NOT need at the moment. Instead of a warrior for defense, I would have moved a vet spearmen (which a size 3 Moscow cranking 7 shields/turn can produce in 3 turns) there using the road I would have built with the worker. Not to mention the fact that by mining the bonus grassland Kiev would DOUBLE its shield production. Are we starting to see how little changes can add up to greatly improve your position?

*Micromanagement time!* That being said, Kiev should be working the forest tile nearby, NOT the hill. The hill is 1food/1shield/1commerce while the forest is 1/2/1. Just that little move changes the time to build a settler from 13 turns to 9 turns - a big difference. And that is with NO tradeoff for less food or commerce, just pure benefit. In the early game it is critical to monitor the tiles being worked like this to gain as much benefit as possible.

All that being said, this was not a terrible turn, but things could have been improved upon. I don't think anyone in this game is a *BAD* player, just that everyone is looking to improve their play through critiques like this. I hope I'm doing a good job.

Where do we go from here? I am not going to lay out EXACT orders, because then it would just be me playing the game, and that's not the point of this game. But here are some general guidelines.

1) Let Moscow grow! :D It will generate much more money for us (that being said, why are we researching at a loss? we are way ahead of our neighbors in tech, so there is no need to break our backs trying to get further ahead) and give us the ability to build soldiers or city improvements rapidly. If we can, let it grow all the way up to size 12. Be careful to use the luxury slider to keep it from going into disorder though. When it reaches size 4 or 5, it should probably pop out a worker that will do nothing but improve its tiles. Which leads to...

2) Workers! We need more. A lot more. Like - more than 1. :lol: A good rule of thumb is to have 1 worker for each city, sometimes more if there is a lot to be done. I suggest switching Kiev over to worker immediately, which can make it more productive just by mining and roading its bonus grassland.

3) For all I said against expansion, we need to do that too. St. Petersburg should be a settler factory for the forseeable future. Irrigate the flood plains, rotate tiles between flood plains and forest, and get a settler every 15-20 turns FOREVER. :)

4) We want both iron and horses as soon as possible. The city planned to be north east of Moscow (can't remember the dot color) should be able to pick up the horses pretty easily, or with a colony if necessary. Or we can shift the city over to get them in range, which might be a better idea. As for the iron, I say put a city right ON it to the south of St. Petersburg. That site is not actually on a river despite its appearance, but is a good site nontheless. It will be heavily corrupted under despotism though, so be warned.

I'm including a screenie of our territory for anyone reading (or lurking in) the thread. To take screenshots, hit the "print screen" key on the keyboard, then paste the image into any imaging program (I use cheezy old Microsoft Paint that came with my PC). Images save best as .jpg files for some reason.



Sulla <<< on deck
Architect
Erik Mesoy
Imhotep <<< UP NOW
 
My "one more thing" post :)

Getting a temple in St. Petersburg would REALLY be helpful, giving it access to both a wheat floodplains AND a game forest, two of the best bonus resouces (only cattle is as good). That might be a good thing to go for after a settler is built.

The expansionist trait has really kicked some major Ass in this game BTW. We have gotten around 7 techs, a settler, and a warrior all from them. I've never seen it so useful before; then again I rarely play really large empty maps where they are most beneficial. With my luck, I get archipelago maps with expansionist civs most of the time! :crazyeye:
 
Ok I think I did most of what you wanted me to do (forgive me if I didn't do everything)

Pre Turn: I lowered Science to 80% with no major loss. We make +2 a turn now. I changed Kiev from a Settler to a Worker as requested by Sulla. (Enter)

1 - 2100BC - Move alot of Scouts and stuff

2 - 2070BC - Move Settler and all our Scouts etc...One sees a Goody hut that will be opened next turn. Settler completed in St. Petersburg, start a Temple as requested by Sulla

3 - 2030BC - We get 25 gold from Goody Hut :yawn:. Minsk is founded on the Light Blue Dot and starts Warrior due in 5 turns

4 - 1990BC - I eat a pretzel

5 - 1950BC - Almost choke on Pretzel...Stone Tablets everywhere feature the News

6 - 1870BC - Moscow Completes Spearman and starts another

7 - 1830BC - Minsk completes warrior and starts Spearman. I move a citizen to the now Irrigated Foodplain in St. Petersburg cutting growth time from 5 to 3. Next person will want to set a citizen to getting some shields so the temple is sped up.

8 - 1790BC - I spy something thats purple that starts with a 'B'

9 - 1750BC - Smolensk Founded on Dark Blue Dot. Production set to Spear.

10 - 1725BC - We learn Maths from the Bulgar People...wonder if they pronounce their V's the same as their b's..nah. I come to the conclusion that Purple Border is India.


Well Have fun Sulla
 
OK, I played my final 10 turns. It took about 2 hours to do so, as most of that time was spent typing this VERY detailed summary of what I did. I worked pretty hard at this, so I hope it's informative. Enjoy!

(0) 1725BC Initial thoughts: it looks pretty good overall. Founding Minsk brought more territory under St. Petersburg's control, allowing me to do this (watch carefully). Minsk is currently using the game tile between the two cities. However, by switching it to the bonus grassland next to the city, we lose no food, commerce, or production (see pictures).





Now by switching St. Petersburg to the game, we speed up its growth greatly:





Since growth essentially = expansion, this will aid us greatly.

Other changes... Kiev does not need a spearman (it will get a VET one from Moscow soon) so it gets changed to Settler. I will be doing some micromanaging here later on my turn. Although Smolensk is brand-new, I also switch it to settler, as it doesn't need military and a temple would take entirely too long to build at this point. I check on the other civs and see that they are all behind us and have nothing to offer us. With all that done, I hit "next turn".

(1) 1700BC Moscow build a veteran spearman. After some thought I decide to send the new spearman to Kiev, as the French are our closest neighbor and also the strongest. Moscow starts another; as the mined bonus grasslands there provide both the maximum amount of food, shields, and commerce there is no need to micromanage there. The worker near St. Petersburg is set to irrigate the square it is on; after it's done there will be no need for a worker by that city. The northern scout encounters a green border; F11 reveals that the mystery civ is the Persians. :(

(2) 1675BC Kiev produces a worker. I select a barracks to be produced next, as we will need more than one city to build soldiers. It also has high shield/low growth potential, so it should NOT be used for settlers/workers. We have St. Petersburg for that. We make contact with the Persians; they are VERY behind on tech. Speaking of tech, we can lower the research quite a bit and still get Writing in one turn; this is something else than can be managed. I'm kind of irritated with myself that I didn't think to check this on the first turn - always keep checking the F1 slider to see if you can contribute less to science and still get the tech in the same amount of time. Minsk, somewhat surprisingly, will not need to be micromanaged, as it is already set up to grow to size 3 and build a settler on the same turn. That's a rare occasion though, and normally some player control is required to time this properly.

(3) 1650BC We learn writing this turn. I decide to use the min-science straegy since we are WAAAY ahead in tech and can also expect to get more tech from goody huts. Therefore I pick Construction, a tech that no one will get for a very long time, and set research to 10%. We'll still get the tech first in 40 turns and can broker it for lots of cash to the other civs. Writing allows us to build embassies, and I choose to do so, since gold does little under despotism. The French have an excellent starting position, on a river with no fewer than 7 (!) bonus grasslands in their city radius. This is why they're currently the strongest opponent civ. Babylon has an excellent start as well and is set to produce a settler next turn. Delhi has 4 bonus grasslands and a floodplains wheat in its radius - watch out because they're goig to expand like crazy with that start. Persia also has an exceptional starting place, with many bonus grasslands and wines in range. They have no IRON at the moment :D We don't have enough money to found an embassy in Japan.

Now that we have writing, DO NOT sell contact between the other civs!!! This will allow them to research techs faster. We want them isolated and weak for as long as possible. None of these civs are expansionist so they won't meet for some time yet. Nothing else of great interest happens this turn.

(4) 1625BC An interesting dilemma this turn. A worker finishes connecting Kiev to the road net and wonders where to go next. I choose to send him to Moscow to work solely on the capitol's lands; this will provide the most benefit for our civ. Another goody hut spotted north of Persia.

(5) 1600BC Moscow builds another spearman (yes another one - and it's only size 2. That should settle the argument on why it's a good thing to let the capitol grow) who departs for the undefended Smolensk. The worker near St. Petersburg finishes irrigating and goes to build a road to Minsk. It will put a road across the game tile, then mine/road the bonus grassland next to Minsk. ANOTHER goody hut found near Japan :goodjob: (why didn't they get it?)

To be continued... (image limit :o )
 
(6) 1575BC Literature pops from a goody hut. :lol: Very, very nice indeed. The other hut gives up maps :( Kiev grows back to size 2; I agree with the default choice of tiles and thus don't change it. Japan gets an embassy this turn too. They also have excellent land, and will produce a settler next turn... or they would except that Kyoto is size 1 and can't produce a settler until it grows back to size 3. He he, silly AI.

(7) 1550BC St. Petersburg regrows to size 3. I leave it on two forests and a floodplains, as we need shields right now.

(8) 1525BC Nothing important happens this turn.

(9) 1500BC Moscow grows to size 3. Spearman produced who heads to Minsk. Kiev has a mine on its bonus grassland and has doubled its shield production (barracks due in 16 turns instead of 33).

*Micromanagement Alert!* Ahhh, Smolensk produces a classic micromanaging dillemma. It has now grown to size 2 and can work 2 tiles. Currently it has defaulted to two grasslands on its river, which will cause it to grow in 10 turns and produce the settler in 20 turns:



But alternately, by moving one of those grasslands to the hill on the river, we get the opposite: settler due in 10 turns, growth in 20 turns:



Solution: Smolensk should alternate the hill and grassland, which will produce the settler in 15 turns. This is a textbook example of how to micromanage and I'm glad it came up. I put it on the grassland this turn, and will switch to the hill next turn. I hope the screenies made it easier to understand :)

(10) 1475BC Smolensk gets switched to hill for this turn. It should go back to grassland next turn. Other than that, nothing of note happens.

NOTES: Moscow should produce one more spearman for itself, then build a temple to keep it happy as it grows. St. Petersburg will finish its temple in 6 turns, then should go into settler production bigtime. Probably it should pop a worker out first to irrigate the wheat that will come into range when the culture expands though. Kiev will produce a settler in two turns; it will be up to your discretion as to where to settle. There is an amazing amount of good land out there so you can hardly go wrong. Just remember that the most important fact in a good city site, before everything else, is closeness to the capitol; so don't build too far away. Kiev will build a barracks in about 10 turns after its population expands; I suggest letting it grow and having it produce soldiers once Moscow goes onto a wonder (which will probably happen soon). Smolensk should keep swapping tiles until it produces its settler, then it's up to you guys to choose what to build next.

FOREIGN: I already gave the deal on contact; don't give it out between civs. Don't trade our world map around right now, as we have explored by far the most land and it is worth serious moolah. It can be traded eventually for lots of cash or even new techs, but wait for now until the other civs get more money.

RESEARCH: Keep at 10% and we will get Construction long before everyone else. We are saving up cash now so that we can rush stuff as necessary under Monarchy/Republic. If we get Philosophy from a goody hut, Monarchy should definitely be researched next. Also, a good strategy if we go to war is to connect iron to our civ and turn our sucky warriors into swordsmen for 40g each. That being said, get the iron to the south ASAP just to deny it to the French. Without iron, we can pick them off at our leisure.

WONDERS: Soon Moscow should start a wonder. Since we will start before any other civ, we will have essentially our choice of any wonder. In my opinion, only one wonder is worth building in the ancient age: the Pyramids. Building them will explode our growth by putting a granary in every city (and this looks like a Pangea map), giving us an advantage that the AI will NEVER be able to match. We will outexpand them as a result and be able to dominate/win the game easily. Great Library is a waste of time - we will be almost in Middle Age by the time it's built. Colossus and Lighthouse are out anyway with no coastal cities at the moment. Oracle? Don't make me laugh. No, Pyramids are the way to go. They are too strong to ignore. I am officially "out" of the game now, so I leave it to you to continue the excellent start we are off to. I'm not going anywhere, so critiques will still be offered for turns, but I will not provide detailed summaries of what to build from now on. Good luck, and always remember the spirit of Sulla is watching you...

EDIT: because the upload file feature is not working for me, I am attaching the game file instead.
 
Was a good set of turns..

1475BC (0) - I inherit a fine kingdom. I survey our current work and agree leaving everything as it is. I do note that india has a worker for trade so I give him mysticism and get a worker and 10gold. We are so far ahead, this will only help us build our infrastructure faster.

1450BC (1) - Our spearman makes it to minsk. Our slave from India begins making a road to Minsk. I contact all other leaders and note I could get contact with the Chinese. I decide I'll find them on my own. I MM smolensk.

1425BC (2) - MM Smolenks again. Our settle heads towards second iron resource. Our worker in Kiev begins mining the grassland that also has a road. The worker near moscow build a road to the newly completed mine. We start a temple in Minsk to get the Iron within our border and it will take 30 turns to complete. I switch the production of Kiev to a settle as claiming the silks resource should be a priority. We can MM Kiev to get a settler in six turns.

1400BC (3) - Moscow produces a spearman. I send him to the target of the Minsk Settler. I MM both Smolensk and Kiev. Our worker near Minsk starts to build a road connecting Minsk to the rest of our empire. Our scouts find nothing of interest. There is a large expanse of unexplored land near smolnesk, we should build a scout after the settler and look for other minor tribes.

1375BC (4) - Pretty uneventful. I MM Smolensk and Kiev. Diplomacy reveals no options.

1350BC (5) - I MM Smolensk and Kiev. Our worker near Moscow begins mining a grassland. I pay 30 gold for a worker in Babylon, slowing him down and speeding us up. He heads to build a road to Smolensk.

1325BC (6) - St. Petersburg completes its temple and starts work on a worker. I MM Smolensk and Kiev. Moscow begins building a temple.

1300BC (7) - Our worker completes the road to Minsk and starts to build a mine. Our warrior near Persia has found the border of China. We will make contact this turn or next. I MM Smolensk. Our settler in Kiev will complete next turn. Then I will begin the building of the barracks again. The French have the technology Map Making. We have lots of techs to offer but I prefer to keep them backward as Map Making does little for us at this time.

1275BC (8) - The french appear near Kiev. We must watch them carefully. Our Settler in Kiev completes and heads to a site one below the spices. Kiev begins building barracks. Moscow can complete its worker in one turn and with it producing 5 shields (one to corruption) we can move to work a 2 food tile decreasing the time to grow and still completing the worker next turn. Moscow will grow next turn. I MM Smolensk.

1250BC (9) - St. Petersburg produces a worker and it moves to irrigate the wheat flood plain in anticipation of the temple expansion. The second mine near Kiev completes and the french move away meaning they are not planning to attack yet. We move our worker to open plain to mine and road it for when the city reaches 3 again. We meet the chinese, they are polite and much like the rest of the world, backwards. They have no money or anything else of interest for us. I MM Smolensk.

1225BC (10) - My reign is at end. Our borders around St. Petersburg expand and the worker begins irrigating the plain. Our settler reaches the iron near the french. The city shall be founded directly on the iron.

I will try to figure out how to post a picture now... here's the save.
 
To post an image, first upload it to the server using the "upload file" command down at the bottom of the screen. Then place it by using the IMG button to create a link to the image just uploaded.

Buying workers is a VERY good move! :goodjob: Anything that slows your rivals and speeds you up is a worthy move. I love it when I can buy workers very early in the game for just that reason. Excellent decision. I can't comment otherwise as I haven't looked at the game.

Sulla - out of game
Architect
Erik Mesoy <<< UP NOW
Imhotep <<<on deck
 
Here's a dot map of where I think the next cities should be built.



Grey boxes are overlap. Black boxes are wasted squares. All in all, I think this is fine as I doubt we make it to where we need every single square on all of these cities. Once these two cities are built, I suggest the next city be built around the gems south of smolensk.

Once the temple is built in Moscow, switch to the pyramids. I just noticed I left a luxury at 10%, you might want to undo this as it was just me looking at what the effect would be and forgetting to put it back.. :cool:

Edit: I tried uploading the file twice using the upload file below and it does not show up in the list of uploaded files even though it says success. Any suggestions?
 
Your file indeed does not appear in the list of uploaded files. I was having a similar problem uploading the game save earlier...

Architect, use the "attach file" command to attach your screen shot. I prefer not to use it, but if there's no way around it that's just what you have to do.
 
Ok, let's try this...
 

Attachments

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Just to present an alternate viewpoint on Sulla's micromanagement...

When micromanaging to get the most out of your cities, there is a short-term viewpoint, as what Sulla proposed, to get your build item out as fast as possible. However, it is also sometimes useful to consider a longer-term viewpoint.

For instance, if you have a size 1 city with different kinds of tiles to choose from, you might choose to micromanage such that you accumulate 40 food (to grow to size 3) and 30 shields (to build a settler) at the same time, such that the settler is done just as you grow to size 3. This would get your settler done soonest. But, another approach would be to always work the highest food tiles first. Your first settler will be done later than it would have been if you had micromanaged to get the settler done just as you grew to 3, but you will have more food left over, which means you'll be growing sooner and getting more tiles into use sooner. As you run out of high food tiles to use, your city will naturally start to use high-production tiles instead, and eventually your production will catch up with your food income. So while your first settler will be done more slowly, subsequent ones will potentially be done more quickly, because you have more tiles being worked. Even if you still build settlers at about the same rate, having a bigger city means more income from commerce, as well as easier development into a productive city once the expansion phase ends, so it may be worth the delay in the first settler from that standpoint alone.

Obviously you won't be able to do this in every case, as it depends on what tiles you have available to work, and whether happiness is an issue, but it's always worthwhile to look long-term as well as short-term when considering your cities growth and production.
 
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