SUL3: Sullla's Training Day Game
- Thread starter Sullla
- Start date
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I count two votes for peaceful development, followed by an industrial era tank blitz. Of course I'm sure a Cossack could be set up to win a battle at that time to set off a golden age too... 
Still waiting on Erik's opinion. Keep in mind that if you want to go that route, the current goal should be all-out settling to claim as much land as possible before national borders become fixed. More cities = more power, even if a lot of them are corrupted.
Still waiting on Erik's opinion. Keep in mind that if you want to go that route, the current goal should be all-out settling to claim as much land as possible before national borders become fixed. More cities = more power, even if a lot of them are corrupted.
Heh, about Golden Ages, since we're on Regeant you're far more likely to wonder your way to a GA than Cossack your way to it. (You need one Scientific and one Expansionist wonder.)
The middle ages when all the wonders are available are a good time to get your GA in any case -- there's still lots of infrastructure work to do, especially in your secondary colonies and around your FP area. Generally speaking, it's better to get your GA when you're NOT at war, especially once you hit the Industrial Age -- you can get a military GA for "free" anytime you want in the Industrial age. It's called Mobilize For War. The only catch is it requires some careful management of what you're building when you mobilize, and of how long the mobilization will last.
The middle ages when all the wonders are available are a good time to get your GA in any case -- there's still lots of infrastructure work to do, especially in your secondary colonies and around your FP area. Generally speaking, it's better to get your GA when you're NOT at war, especially once you hit the Industrial Age -- you can get a military GA for "free" anytime you want in the Industrial age. It's called Mobilize For War. The only catch is it requires some careful management of what you're building when you mobilize, and of how long the mobilization will last.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Guess I should have thought a little more about that one... 
As Zed said, we surely will get a Golden Age from wonder building before a Cossack victory, and that's probably a good thing. Here's a list of the wonders needed for each category:
Scientific:
Great Library
Newton's University
Cure for Cancer
Longevity
Theory of Evolution
Expansionist:
Colossus
Lighthouse
Magellan's
Copernicus
SETI Program
With this in mind, it may be a good idea to start the Colossus soon (if we ever get a coastal city...) Barring that, we'd probably need to build both Copernicus and Newton to get a Golden Age from Wonders, or end up waiting until Theory of Evolution. It's not a big deal at the moment, but something to keep in the back of your mind.
EDIT: Another thought - we want Republic ASAP. I say broker construction for all techs we don't have and make a lot of cash. Then after finishing Currency, research Republic at high science, revolting AFTER Moscow finishes Pyramids (so time research on Republic to finish just as Moscow finishes wonder). We will be staying in Republic for quite some time, and with our very good cash flow, we'd much rather be rushing things with gold than with population. Try to get another lux (those gems, maybe?) online before going to republic though.
As Zed said, we surely will get a Golden Age from wonder building before a Cossack victory, and that's probably a good thing. Here's a list of the wonders needed for each category:
Scientific:
Great Library
Newton's University
Cure for Cancer
Longevity
Theory of Evolution
Expansionist:
Colossus
Lighthouse
Magellan's
Copernicus
SETI Program
With this in mind, it may be a good idea to start the Colossus soon (if we ever get a coastal city...) Barring that, we'd probably need to build both Copernicus and Newton to get a Golden Age from Wonders, or end up waiting until Theory of Evolution. It's not a big deal at the moment, but something to keep in the back of your mind.
EDIT: Another thought - we want Republic ASAP. I say broker construction for all techs we don't have and make a lot of cash. Then after finishing Currency, research Republic at high science, revolting AFTER Moscow finishes Pyramids (so time research on Republic to finish just as Moscow finishes wonder). We will be staying in Republic for quite some time, and with our very good cash flow, we'd much rather be rushing things with gold than with population. Try to get another lux (those gems, maybe?) online before going to republic though.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
The game save was posted yesterday afternoon. Erik Mesoy has until late tonight to post a "got it" or he will be skipped this time. Erik, you don't have to PLAY a turn in the next 12 hours, but you do need to post that you have the game, which gives you then 72 hours to play a turn. This is to make sure that you're still here checking the thread and moving the game along. 
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
Sorry, my parents were forcing me to do maths homework!! Can you say boring? Log, Linreg, 15th roots etc. Integrals. Functions. I'm 13 years old.
But i have got the game!!
But i have got the game!!
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
Now, I think we should go for spaceship. Scientific begs for that, and Expansionist all the way to the stars... Have you seen the Sci Advisor?
"Developing Space Flight might lead to, oh, Alpha Centauri."
LOL! Go for republic. I dont think we need any war. But- get the Colossus, then put Newtons or Copernicus in the same city. This will help a lot for science.
"Developing Space Flight might lead to, oh, Alpha Centauri."
LOL! Go for republic. I dont think we need any war. But- get the Colossus, then put Newtons or Copernicus in the same city. This will help a lot for science.
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
Green dots are city places. We are a little thin on military right now- cause we have so many cities. Normal map, we should have 8, right? we have 11. Get a FP asap.
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
Lets try it again...
Well, it looks like Erik is in power once again. Erik III takes the throne of Russia! I micro Tblisi to get a settler 3 turns earlier. Swap Kiev from spear to settler. I though we had 2 settlers ready to the left and right on my turn, where did those go? I upgrade a warrior to a swordsman. MM st.Peters to get the settler same turn as growth, 5 turns. I hit enter.
1: A worker completes his road, I make a mine to speed up Pyramids. I decide to check over our trade abilities.
Dial up france. Our world map is worth: Terrmap and 5 gold. I think someone said broker construction, didnt they? Hmm.. anything easier? 38 gold buys Philosophy. Philosophy and 25 gold buys us Code of Laws from Japan. Nobody else will sell Poly for anything except Construction. I decide to broker everything. Construction gives:
40 gold, wmap, Poly from France
Wmap, 25 gold from Japan
wmap, 20 gold from China
wmap, 15 gold from Babylon
wmap, 40 gold from Persia
Gandhi is broke, so i Give it to him. Gracious.
I hit enter again.
2: Science to 50, Currency in 1 anyway.
3: Currency discovered! Start Republic in 14 turns.
I add a lawn to the palace. Babs are building the pyramids. Moscow riots. Free feudalism. Can we try for Sun Tzu's after Pyramids??
4: Not much happens. However- India and France are in the middle ages! They must have been researching Currency! Continue some roads to the silk.
Babs are building Oracle.
5: A bunch of settlers are produced.
6: 410 BC. Tblisis builds settler, starts Pikeman. The settler is sent off to the Gems and Iron. I upgrade 2 spearmen and notice that we are not running a negative cashflow anylonger. We now have 2 luxuries, so I check all cities for entertainers. Cut Moscow Pyramids to 11.
7: Drat. The indians land galley eith settler and spear on the little landbridge.
8: The indians found ****tagone or something on the landbrigde.
CHina DEMANDS currency. Well. France and India are in the middle ages, so i give in.
9: Bloody Whatsit... I mean Vladi Vostok founded.
10: The Idiot Indians are marching another settler down the landbridge. I vote we declare war after getting pyramids. Moscow can crank out troops pretty easy.
The next player should see Republic and Pyramids. We need a FP, so I suggest Odessa or Sevastopol. If we declare war on india, we should also so the following Mil alliances:
Babs vs India.
Babs vs Persia.
China vs Persia.
China vs Japan.
Babs vs Japan.
CHina vs India.
Wait for France to go to war as well.
The world will have a war on their hands, we have pikemen so we can just ignore them. Pikes and swords are pretty good for a war. Do we beeline for Democracy, or stop for Chivalry and Invention? Start the colossus in Sverdlovsk. Yes, it can. Harbor, Col, and Lightohuse needs that the city be founded next to water that has a connection to some sea.
Well, it looks like Erik is in power once again. Erik III takes the throne of Russia! I micro Tblisi to get a settler 3 turns earlier. Swap Kiev from spear to settler. I though we had 2 settlers ready to the left and right on my turn, where did those go? I upgrade a warrior to a swordsman. MM st.Peters to get the settler same turn as growth, 5 turns. I hit enter.
1: A worker completes his road, I make a mine to speed up Pyramids. I decide to check over our trade abilities.
Dial up france. Our world map is worth: Terrmap and 5 gold. I think someone said broker construction, didnt they? Hmm.. anything easier? 38 gold buys Philosophy. Philosophy and 25 gold buys us Code of Laws from Japan. Nobody else will sell Poly for anything except Construction. I decide to broker everything. Construction gives:
40 gold, wmap, Poly from France
Wmap, 25 gold from Japan
wmap, 20 gold from China
wmap, 15 gold from Babylon
wmap, 40 gold from Persia
Gandhi is broke, so i Give it to him. Gracious.
I hit enter again.
2: Science to 50, Currency in 1 anyway.
3: Currency discovered! Start Republic in 14 turns.
I add a lawn to the palace. Babs are building the pyramids. Moscow riots. Free feudalism. Can we try for Sun Tzu's after Pyramids??
4: Not much happens. However- India and France are in the middle ages! They must have been researching Currency! Continue some roads to the silk.
Babs are building Oracle.
5: A bunch of settlers are produced.
6: 410 BC. Tblisis builds settler, starts Pikeman. The settler is sent off to the Gems and Iron. I upgrade 2 spearmen and notice that we are not running a negative cashflow anylonger. We now have 2 luxuries, so I check all cities for entertainers. Cut Moscow Pyramids to 11.
7: Drat. The indians land galley eith settler and spear on the little landbridge.
8: The indians found ****tagone or something on the landbrigde.
CHina DEMANDS currency. Well. France and India are in the middle ages, so i give in.
9: Bloody Whatsit... I mean Vladi Vostok founded.
10: The Idiot Indians are marching another settler down the landbridge. I vote we declare war after getting pyramids. Moscow can crank out troops pretty easy.
The next player should see Republic and Pyramids. We need a FP, so I suggest Odessa or Sevastopol. If we declare war on india, we should also so the following Mil alliances:
Babs vs India.
Babs vs Persia.
China vs Persia.
China vs Japan.
Babs vs Japan.
CHina vs India.
Wait for France to go to war as well.
The world will have a war on their hands, we have pikemen so we can just ignore them. Pikes and swords are pretty good for a war. Do we beeline for Democracy, or stop for Chivalry and Invention? Start the colossus in Sverdlovsk. Yes, it can. Harbor, Col, and Lightohuse needs that the city be founded next to water that has a connection to some sea.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Erik: you're 13 and working with integrals? Not too shabby 
Now when you get to college you can work on non-degenerate bilinear forms in linear algebra like I'm doing...
Hmm... not so bad, but some serious mistakes here.
This series of actions represents a mistake on your part. Upon researching Currency, I would have checked the other civs to see how close they were to it. Upon discovering that other civs were close, I would have brokered immediately to ALL civs to get max value for it. Failing that, discovering the next turn that India and France got the tech should have been a gigantic green light to broker before the others got the tech from them. On a higher difficulty than Regent, you don't get another chance - once one of them gets it, they'll ALL have it within a turn or two. The window of opportunity to broker closes fast and you missed it here. The failure to do so caused China to "demand" it from us, when we could have had them pay for it.
A bad series of actions here; I hope you can learn from it.
Moscow riots?
That should NEVER happen to a city building a wonder. We lose all production, research, commerce, and food in a capitol for a turn, for a silly mistake that can be easily prevented. Please don't let this happen again! If we lose the wonder by one turn, we will know why.
Moscow isn't growing either. I don't care that we're building a wonder, that is NOT an excuse to shut down all growth in our city at size 6. What makes things worse is that we can move a worker from a mountain to a mined grassland and lose 0 (!) turns of production on the wonder, while starting up growth again. Unless it is absolutely necessary to get the wonder, going no-growth to speed up by a few turns is a bad idea - it will build just as fast from going on higher food and expanding to a larger size so it can work more tiles. We started before anyone else on the Pyramids, so I don't believe there's much of a chance of losing it (barring a golden age). Main point: don't go no-growth in the capitol unless there's a DAMN good reason to do so. And that's not the case here.
NO!!! We DO NOT want to declare war on the Indians. Their cities are a looong way away, too far to be any good to us if captured. A war with them will only slow us down and let the other peaceful civs get ahead. And I don't want us to blow our treasury by starting World War I purchasing a ton of military alliances. (The other civs just fight a fake war for a few turns, then make peace anyway). Did I mention that our military is weak compared to India? And that their cities will just culturally defect to us anyway? There is no reason to start a war - that would be a BAD idea. Our military sucks bigtime at the moment.
We will want to fight before the Industrial Age though, and the natural target is FRANCE. They've got beautiful land, at least 2 luxuries we don't have, are close, are militarily weak... do I need to go on? On that note, Odessa should start the Forbidden Palace soon. When it completes in 30-40 turns, we should have enough military to go to war. Until then, the goal should be a mixture of infrastructure, military buildup of knights, and settling the remaining good spots near us.
I'm included Erik's original dot map, with some additional suggestions of my own in red dots. They are all subject to change of course, depending on the situation. All of you may want to try the GOTM7 Deity game just to see how it goes; I started yesterday and am praying for some good luck.
Now when you get to college you can work on non-degenerate bilinear forms in linear algebra like I'm doing...Hmm... not so bad, but some serious mistakes here.
This series of actions represents a mistake on your part. Upon researching Currency, I would have checked the other civs to see how close they were to it. Upon discovering that other civs were close, I would have brokered immediately to ALL civs to get max value for it. Failing that, discovering the next turn that India and France got the tech should have been a gigantic green light to broker before the others got the tech from them. On a higher difficulty than Regent, you don't get another chance - once one of them gets it, they'll ALL have it within a turn or two. The window of opportunity to broker closes fast and you missed it here. The failure to do so caused China to "demand" it from us, when we could have had them pay for it.
A bad series of actions here; I hope you can learn from it. Moscow riots?
That should NEVER happen to a city building a wonder. We lose all production, research, commerce, and food in a capitol for a turn, for a silly mistake that can be easily prevented. Please don't let this happen again! If we lose the wonder by one turn, we will know why. Moscow isn't growing either. I don't care that we're building a wonder, that is NOT an excuse to shut down all growth in our city at size 6. What makes things worse is that we can move a worker from a mountain to a mined grassland and lose 0 (!) turns of production on the wonder, while starting up growth again. Unless it is absolutely necessary to get the wonder, going no-growth to speed up by a few turns is a bad idea - it will build just as fast from going on higher food and expanding to a larger size so it can work more tiles. We started before anyone else on the Pyramids, so I don't believe there's much of a chance of losing it (barring a golden age). Main point: don't go no-growth in the capitol unless there's a DAMN good reason to do so. And that's not the case here.
NO!!! We DO NOT want to declare war on the Indians. Their cities are a looong way away, too far to be any good to us if captured. A war with them will only slow us down and let the other peaceful civs get ahead. And I don't want us to blow our treasury by starting World War I purchasing a ton of military alliances. (The other civs just fight a fake war for a few turns, then make peace anyway). Did I mention that our military is weak compared to India? And that their cities will just culturally defect to us anyway? There is no reason to start a war - that would be a BAD idea. Our military sucks bigtime at the moment.
We will want to fight before the Industrial Age though, and the natural target is FRANCE. They've got beautiful land, at least 2 luxuries we don't have, are close, are militarily weak... do I need to go on? On that note, Odessa should start the Forbidden Palace soon. When it completes in 30-40 turns, we should have enough military to go to war. Until then, the goal should be a mixture of infrastructure, military buildup of knights, and settling the remaining good spots near us.
I'm included Erik's original dot map, with some additional suggestions of my own in red dots. They are all subject to change of course, depending on the situation. All of you may want to try the GOTM7 Deity game just to see how it goes; I started yesterday and am praying for some good luck.
A FP in Odessa? That's only ~12 squares away from Moscow -- probably much too close. I mean, even Paris will probably have two shields or three with a courthouse. I'm a big fan of the early FP build, but I think Odessa is cutting your vision a bit too close. It's awfully close to your capital.
I think the green dot in the north is too far north, too, as far as that goes.... The game claimed by Rome will never be yours -- at a range of two, you can never steal a tile right next to a city. That's just MHO, though.
Arathorn
P.S. I might have to try a GOTM now. Never done one before, but deity is tempting. Of course, it would have to be the Iroquois that I'm playing in LotR3, too. Sigh....
I think the green dot in the north is too far north, too, as far as that goes.... The game claimed by Rome will never be yours -- at a range of two, you can never steal a tile right next to a city. That's just MHO, though.
Arathorn
P.S. I might have to try a GOTM now. Never done one before, but deity is tempting. Of course, it would have to be the Iroquois that I'm playing in LotR3, too. Sigh....
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
Rome isnt in this game!
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
Arathorn, arent you up?
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Somehow I don't think Arathorn needs me to be giving him advice...
Imhotep is UP though. If he doesn't post an "I got it" by late tonight, game passes over to Architect.
ok this is how it goes down, its all good...all my homies.....well you get the idea. I had a chillin' 10 turns with no real problems cept them damn indians...They reproduce in this game almost as fast as they do in real life...they've locked us in from the west so we will have to expand eastward. Also we need roads heading East to ferry settlers faster.
J-Dogg Takes the throne and surveys the 'hood...He thinks he can get away with lowering science from 90% to 70% since it only will take 20 years (1 turn) longer to discover Republic and we gain 3 instead of losing 5. J-Dogg Micromanages Tiblisi so it produces 1 extra gold with no loss on production and only 1 turn loss on growth. He Micromanages Minsk to grow 8 turns faster with no loss to production. ENTER F00!
310 BC - Hammurabi is paranoid and asks us to get out of his territory. He then proceeds to breathe into a brown paper bag. Man we were only chillin' with the Babylonian Women! MAN THEY HOT! We eventually leave though..
290 BC - We build a settler and J-Dogg decides to move it east towards those Incence and the tons of Flood Plains. Minsk starts a Horseman, man. Novograd founded near cattle as the Dot Map said. We order one of them baaad ass archers.
270 BC - Petersburg finishes settler and starts its Barracks. Smolensk completes it barracks and starts a Temple....
250 BC - Just Chillin'....you betta' recognize!
230 BC - Minsk Expands, locking with the Indians near the land bridge. Sverdlovsk Finishes Library and starts one of them Temples. Japs start oracle.
210 BC - Kranoyarsk Built and Spearman ordered. I look outside and guess what the hell I see! I see these big Pointy things outside!!! Must be some sorta Sundial or something..one of my homies tells me its Pyramids....s'coo. French, Chinese, Babs, and Inidans decide to build a Dumb ol' library instead. French and Indians also decide to build the oracle. I start Sun Tzus but y'alls can change it if you want..I just think Barracks in all cities is very enticing...what else we gonna build..the Great Wall?
190 BC - We get Republic and look into Engineering. We go to Anarchy to change to Republic. Moscow Revolts and is unquenchable.
170 BC - All I wanna do is a zooma zooma zoom and a boom boom
150 BC - Yakutsk Revolts...I eat pizza
130 BC - Riga Founded in the last open spot between French, Indians, and ourselves. It steals 3 tiles from France and will probably steal more via culture hehe.
Thats my turns...like I said, roads east. settle east, get as many resources you can out east....watch out for dem Indians. Also noticed lots of Chinese around our city borders and a few times i had to tell them to get lost.
J-Dogg Takes the throne and surveys the 'hood...He thinks he can get away with lowering science from 90% to 70% since it only will take 20 years (1 turn) longer to discover Republic and we gain 3 instead of losing 5. J-Dogg Micromanages Tiblisi so it produces 1 extra gold with no loss on production and only 1 turn loss on growth. He Micromanages Minsk to grow 8 turns faster with no loss to production. ENTER F00!
310 BC - Hammurabi is paranoid and asks us to get out of his territory. He then proceeds to breathe into a brown paper bag. Man we were only chillin' with the Babylonian Women! MAN THEY HOT! We eventually leave though..
290 BC - We build a settler and J-Dogg decides to move it east towards those Incence and the tons of Flood Plains. Minsk starts a Horseman, man. Novograd founded near cattle as the Dot Map said. We order one of them baaad ass archers.
270 BC - Petersburg finishes settler and starts its Barracks. Smolensk completes it barracks and starts a Temple....
250 BC - Just Chillin'....you betta' recognize!
230 BC - Minsk Expands, locking with the Indians near the land bridge. Sverdlovsk Finishes Library and starts one of them Temples. Japs start oracle.
210 BC - Kranoyarsk Built and Spearman ordered. I look outside and guess what the hell I see! I see these big Pointy things outside!!! Must be some sorta Sundial or something..one of my homies tells me its Pyramids....s'coo. French, Chinese, Babs, and Inidans decide to build a Dumb ol' library instead. French and Indians also decide to build the oracle. I start Sun Tzus but y'alls can change it if you want..I just think Barracks in all cities is very enticing...what else we gonna build..the Great Wall?
190 BC - We get Republic and look into Engineering. We go to Anarchy to change to Republic. Moscow Revolts and is unquenchable.
170 BC - All I wanna do is a zooma zooma zoom and a boom boom
150 BC - Yakutsk Revolts...I eat pizza
130 BC - Riga Founded in the last open spot between French, Indians, and ourselves. It steals 3 tiles from France and will probably steal more via culture hehe.
Thats my turns...like I said, roads east. settle east, get as many resources you can out east....watch out for dem Indians. Also noticed lots of Chinese around our city borders and a few times i had to tell them to get lost.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I'm afraid I'm a little too busy to take a look at the game save right now, so here are a few comments made without looking at the map.
Don't build archers; they are a waste of shields. A far better choice would be to build horsemen, who can be upgraded to knights and eventually to our UU the Cossack. Longbowmen are really only worth build if you lack iron and horses for knights, and we lack neither.
Sun Tzu on this Pangea map would be excellent, but with so many shields built up the AI civs are almost certain to get it in a cascade. I would indeed start building it, but NOT in the capital because we cannot switch over to a palace placeholder if all known wonders are cascaded through in rapid succession. By starting a new wonder now, we will have our pick of any other Middle Age wonder we choose (a thought: if we're lucky, the cascade will end without reaching Sistine or Leo's. Then we will get ALL of the wonders if we so choose)
While we have enough cities now that this is understandable, it's still bad form to have any city go into disorder. Moscow could have been kept out of that turn of anarchy by hiring an entertainer for that turn only. That would be better than losing a turn's output of food and commerce (no shields under anarchy pf course).
Be careful about this; kicking foreign soldiers out of your land quickly causes relations to go down. Since the AI troops rarely present a threat in their wanderings, it's better just to let them go by. Also, in my Deity GOTM7, if I tried to kick anyone else's forces out, I would be buried in an instant!
Sulla - out of game
Architect <<< UP NOW
Erik Mesoy <<< on deck
Imhotep
Don't build archers; they are a waste of shields. A far better choice would be to build horsemen, who can be upgraded to knights and eventually to our UU the Cossack. Longbowmen are really only worth build if you lack iron and horses for knights, and we lack neither.
Sun Tzu on this Pangea map would be excellent, but with so many shields built up the AI civs are almost certain to get it in a cascade. I would indeed start building it, but NOT in the capital because we cannot switch over to a palace placeholder if all known wonders are cascaded through in rapid succession. By starting a new wonder now, we will have our pick of any other Middle Age wonder we choose (a thought: if we're lucky, the cascade will end without reaching Sistine or Leo's. Then we will get ALL of the wonders if we so choose
) While we have enough cities now that this is understandable, it's still bad form to have any city go into disorder. Moscow could have been kept out of that turn of anarchy by hiring an entertainer for that turn only. That would be better than losing a turn's output of food and commerce (no shields under anarchy pf course).
Be careful about this; kicking foreign soldiers out of your land quickly causes relations to go down. Since the AI troops rarely present a threat in their wanderings, it's better just to let them go by. Also, in my Deity GOTM7, if I tried to kick anyone else's forces out, I would be buried in an instant!
Sulla - out of game
Architect <<< UP NOW
Erik Mesoy <<< on deck
Imhotep
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