SUL4: Training Day for Emperors

Critique for Ziggy:

550: Changing worked tiles so that wasted shields are replaced by commerce is always a good move. The fact that it allowed you to run 20% luxuries instead of 30% is just an added bonus. :) Declining the alliance was a good move. Don't start a war you aren't ready to fight, no matter how tempting the offer might seem. As you saw, we were able to get just as good of a deal a few turns later from Babylon. It's always important to make the AI civs react to YOUR actions, not the other way around.

530: Workers on goto is definitely a nono. It was an accident from Ming's turn, but you're right to point this one out as something to avoid.

510: Purple does need a better defender, but we can produce that out of Athens or Sparta. Purple needs food more than anything else, so it should get a harbor next.

490: "Delphi produces swodsman...starts temple (more troops will take 8 turns so no point)" NO! :nono: This is a common misconception among players: create enough units to start a war but then stop producing more ones. Units DIE in wars. That's expected, and it's ok. But you need to keep on producing units to ensure that the attack can continue and not peter out as all of the forces die. When you start a war, you have to keep on unit production until that war ends. No other way around it. The decision to build a temple there isn't bad, but the reasoning behind it is :smoke:. Upgrading two warriors to swordsmen if we have the money (even if they are only regular) was a good move to add more punch to the initial attack.

470: Now here you did continue swordsman production in Athens and Sparta. Maybe you should have said when describing Corinth "I stop producing swords here because they're going to be coming from Athens and Sparta." It looks like you are aware of the need for reinforcements after all. :) But the logic in that previous turn's statement wasn't very good. We were able to get all Hammurabi had for an alliance anyway, making the 1st turn decision look very good indeed. But even if you had gotten nothing, I would have still approved not fighting a war before we were ready. Getting 3 Russian workers too... :mwaha:

450: Thermopylae to temple? Well, it certainly needs it, but I would have suggested a Hoplite to free up the sword just sitting in the city on MP duty for action. Not a bad decision though, as Thermopylae needs a temple. St. Petersburg with no losses? :D It's good luck, but we prepared well enough that it would have fallen even with poor luck. We now have silks? Since we can't trade with Babylon, I'm going to assume that you mean we have SPICES. :lol: Odessa flipped to us, that's quite funny. I actually had another game where a city that was about to be obliterated on the next turn flipped to me peacefully. That's always fun when it happens.

410: Corinth on temple? Well it certainly needs it, but I'm not so sure another sword wasn't a better choice. In any case, it's not a bad decision, just I'm always concerned when top shield cities are pulled off of military units in the middle of a war. Golden Age time! [dance]

390: Losing our SPICES hurts, but fortunately we can get them hooked up again shortly. Remember that the AI is not always as dumb as you think; they are programmed to go after resources as well as units and cities. At this point you now have 0 attacking units in production. Don't kill the attack by ending all military production! The faster we kill Russia, the faster we get back to our infrastructure phase. I'm going to have to switch at least one or two cities off to military units.

370: Moscow falls! You don't know how many games on mine recently have involved playing against the Russians; seems like I've been saying that it every game. ;) Getting the Colossus will be a big help on a small map once we get a courthouse in there and switch to Monarchy. Babylon's settler could be a problem, but we'll just work around it.

Thanks for the head's up on Sparta, I will be playing right now and post ASAP with the results.
 
One point on military production during wars: sometimes I run across a player who has the opposite problem, building nothing but military while at war. This results in overkill and you can significantly hurt the growth of your economy by ignoring infrastructure for too long, ultimately delaying victory.

Moderation in all things is key. :) You need to balance getting critical infrastructure programs done in key cities with building troops elsewhere. This can mean building troops in all secondary cities, letting their numbers make up for their slowness, while you work on infrastructure in your core, or if your core is well-developed let your core handle the military while your secondary cities handle the infrastructure, or something in between. And of course, the ratio of infrastructure to military builds depends on how fast you expect to lose troops.
 
I fully agree with Zed-F with keeping the production mixed. It almost always happens that I wind up in war just as factories become available. Unless my Civ is on the verge of collapse, I always squeeze a few factories in. Sometimes this can delay the war, but when I can get a factory cranking out units - look out!
I love getting a city that can build a cavalry EVERY turn. Next growth should give an infantry every turn. This can make a huge difference in war.

Early on squeezing out a marketplace in a large city can really help with the cash flow to pay for the troops, etc.

This is why I really hate war mobilization - to restrictive.
 
The comments from Zed and LK, as usual, are excellent. I was making my points because when I inherited the game, we had 0 core cities on military! That's too thin to continue. As you'll see in my report, I actually balanced military and infrastructure throughout my turn, usually without thinking about it since I've played so many games. :)

(0) 350BC: As much as I dislike doing so, the best option is to make an entertainer in Sparta rather than raising the luxury tax. Since Sparta would be the only city getting the benefit out of this, it's better to have the 1 wasted tile than lose out on 8g/turn. Purple goes to harbor, which will take forever to get done but Purple needs it so badly it's not a waste. We need a little more military: Corinth goes to a sword, Sparta will finish its library and then go over to horses (due to distance from the front). Athens will produce some settler/spear pairs to fill opened up land and claim the gems (eventually). Moscow gets starved to cut down on flips. I am going to turn one of the Russian workers into a colony on the spices to get them connected some 7 turns sooner. We should be able to attack Smolensk in about 3 turns by my estimate. Overall, things are looking good.

(1) 330BC: Sparta is getting 14 shields/turn. Unacceptable! I rearrange tiles with Athens so that Sparta gets 16 shields/turn (allowing horsies in 2 turns instead of 3) without starving. Oh yes, and I buy a worker from Hammurabi for 28g, which will offset the loss of a Russian worker for the colony next turn. Russia has also founded 2 new cities near us, including in the spot that the Babylonians were about to settle! :lol:

(2) 310BC: Smolensk, the current Russian capital, is going to fall next turn. I am actually going to hold off on attacking Tbilisi, the replacement for Kiev, because it will autoraze and allow the Bablyonians to settle there. I will wait for our settler to get there, and then attack it and found in its place. Not bad, huh?

(3) 290BC: Moscow riots, despite the fact that the only citizen there is content (?) Beats me. A colony is created on a spices square, prompting a reshuffling of tiles between Athens and Sparta. Lots of fun. We take Smolensk with no losses, although three swords are pretty beat up. The new Russian capital is Minsk, their iron city, which means it won't autoraze when we capture it (Nice!). One turn away from completion, I realize that Delphi needs a harbor much more than a temple and switch. One turn away from Monarchy means I can switch the science slider way down and pick up 28g next turn, the cost of that Babylonian worker.

(4) 270BC: We discover Monarchy. Ordinarily I would revolt immediately, but I won't do so here because we are in a Golden Age. It feels weird clicking "No, we are happy with Despotism" though. I would research Construction next, but since Russia has it, we start research on Currency instead. I can attack Tblisi this turn, but I'm going to do it next turn to deny the land to Babylon. I'm so evil sometimes...

(5) 250BC: Tbilsi captured and as expected autorazed. Our settler will found a city there next turn. Russia is down to only only city (Minsk) on the starting continent. I will be able to take it in about 3-4 turns.

(6) 230BC: A stack of 4 (regular) bowmen appears outside Minsk. A Russian elite sword sallies out to attack them, and unexpectedly dies to one of them (?) If Babylon didn't have a golden age earlier, they have one now! Perhaps Babylon will end up getting to take Minsk. Come on Russia! The city of Knossus was founded this turn. We have roughly 15 units converging on Minsk at the moment so long as it can hold out until then.

(7) 210BC: The Babylonians take Minsk and raze it to the ground! (They had some good luck there). But never fear; we have enough units in the area to bloackade the Babylonian settler until ours can get there! Look:
SUL4_blockade.jpg

Those swords not part of the blockade begin heading north to attack the Russian island cities. Since we need two settlers (one for the Minsk area, another for the critical gems) I lose 23 shields on a temple build and produce one in Corinth. It will be more than justified if we get the gems.

(8) 190BC: I have been humbled by Babylon. Take a look:
SUL4_blockade2.jpg

I'm going to hope that those fortified units move, or they have just cut us off from the entire rest of the continent.

(9) 170BC: The Babylonians still have the blockade up. I have guys there waiting to move in and open it up if they move. Let's hope they do. Other forces are streaming back to the Athens area to be loaded on galleys and sent to the Russian islands.

(10) 150BC: Ha! The Babs foolishly move, and I plug the hole with units to ensure it stays open. The route to the gems is now open. We finished Currency, and Construction is the only thing left to research in this age. Since we will get that from Russia in about 5 turns, I turn off research entirely so we can get some money. That will be useful when we go into Monarchy.

Suggestions: Capture Kiev, since it's a good location, then make peace. Our alliance should have run out by that time anyway. Sign peace for anything Russia might have left, and leave them alone for 20 turns. As soon as our golden age ends (likely at about the same time we make peace) revolt to Monarchy. We don't have enough luxuries/infrastructure for Republic here, and as soon as knights come around we will attack Babylon. Longterm plan is for a bigtime horsemen -> knights upgrade that will crush Babylon. More on that later of course. For now, get those gems up ASAP. And I think a suicide run with our galley in the west is in order. See if we find something. I think we're in excellent shape here, with our first war won and our civ the strongest on the island. Nice going so far everyone! See, Emperor isn't that bad. :p

The Game: 150BC

Sulla
OPEN SPOT (anyone out there interested?)
Ridgelake <<< UP NOW
MingTheMerciles <<< on deck
Ziggy
 
A lot of fun turns there, guys!!! :goodjob:

I'll play within the next 36 hours.

Quick question Sulla, why is Sparta, which is 3 spots from the capital, building a courthouse?
 
Great turns Sulla...a few comments on my critique

470: Now here you did continue swordsman production in Athens and Sparta. Maybe you should have said when describing Corinth "I stop producing swords here because they're going to be coming from Athens and Sparta." It looks like you are aware of the need for reinforcements after all.

yeah thats exactly what i meant...just poorly stated
the fact that at the end of the turn noone was building millitary was kind of a fluke...i think i said sparta was snealing in a library (or whatever it ended up building) and then was planning to go right back to millitary...ditto with athens and its settler
the other main reason was....at that point we had taken a grand total of TWO casualties in the entire war...with one of those being the fameous southern warrior...you add that in to the fact we were in a golden age (so places that are semi corrupt will have a chance to get one decent building out) and yeah its really just a timing thing....a snapshot 4 turns either side woulda looked way different

as for the silk/spices think....well just be glad i dont cook if i can't tell the diff! :lol:

all in all we are doing scarily well for an emporer game...i never thought we would be on the offensive...ever...in one...let alone kicking some serious hiney....and yeah...i have a bad history with Russia too
 
Originally posted by Ziggy
all in all we are doing scarily well for an emporer game...i never thought we would be on the offensive...ever...in one...let alone kicking some serious hiney....and yeah...i have a bad history with Russia too

Well, it's also important not to overestimate the AI's abilities on Emperor/Deity. Sirian put it best when he said something like this in a game I was in: "The AI has these massive bonuses, but for all of their production and research advantages they don't know what to DO with it, and their inability to finish gives the player the opportunity needed to win." Let's not underestimate ourselves here; if you understand how to play and win, Emperor is not all that tough. Yes, we could have had a weaker starting position, but I'm confident that the result would have been the same. ;)

To ALL of you in this game: I think you might find some of the info on my Civ3 page interesting. I have chronicled wins on both Emperor and Deity in some detail, and it is also an interesting read in my opinion. :D To check it out, go here. If any of you are interested in playing in a fun competition game where the emphasis is on sharing results and friendly discussion, try looking at the Realms Beyond Epics at this address, and be sure to check out our discussion of the results of Epic#1 in the forum. (The same advice goes out to any lurkers out there too.) :king:
 
I dl'ed the file last night and took a look around. I was not able to play as it was late. I will try to play tonight.
 
150BC (0) Look around map. I check out each city and look at the various units. I change some city build orders.

Sparta to Palace. I know that a Marketplace is likely the build here. But having noticed the elite swords heading to Kiev, I want to hold out for the possibility of a GL. With a GL, I would put the FP in Sparta and then use the GL to rush the palace somewhere in our new Russian territory. Perhaps Moscow.

Thermo is changed to a marketplace. We need an aqueduct here too.

Pharsalos to a marketplace. One galley will be enough to shuttle troops to Kiev.

All other orders kept the same. The slider is moved to 4/4/2. Construction due in 8, 16 gpt.

I move around a few citizens. For instance, Thermo, which is maxed at size 6 awaiting construction, is allocated for max shields.

For the two settlers, after a lot of thought, I decide to put one by the gems and the other on the land bridge. They will be close together, which will help with culture pressure (both offensively and defensively). Further, the land bridge city will help ensure that we control the land bridge.

Diplo check. Hammi has Construction to our Lit, Currency and Monarchy. We now have the cultural advantage. Our libraries are paying off. :)

130BC (1) The galley that I saw north of Athens was a Russian Galley. I thought it was ours. I change Pharsalos back to galley.

Athens builds a hoplite. I cue up a marketplace.

The galley outside of Odessa begins a suicide run. We see purple boundries!!!!!! [party]

Diplo check. Hammi has a worker! 30 gold, and he is ours. :) I will send him to the chain gang outside St. Pete.

110BC (2) Delphi builds a boat. Knowing that we are going for a horsie-> calvary move up, I start on a horseman.

The purple boundries are the French! Joanie!! I establish an embassy. France has Republic and Construction over us. They have contact with the Egyptians and the Indians. Paris is size 4. They have horses but no iron. In terms of number of cities, they are roughly equal to us. The French people are in awe of our culture. I trade with them. ROP, WM and Contact with Egypt for ROP, Contact w/ Russia, Babs, 2 gpt and 50 gold.

Embassy established with Egypt. They are in a republic and have both iron and horses. They have a ton of silks. I sell contact with Russia and Babs for contact with India and WM. The Egyptians are impressed with our culture.

Contact with India. I try to broker communications with the Russians and Babs. All they can offer is construction. So, I dial up Hammi and offer communications with India. He gives Construction, WM and 30 gold. I take it.

Our soothsayers say we master Monotheism! We have been kicked into the Middle Ages. We can now make cathedrals. I cue up Feudalism so that we can then go Chivalry. I know that we don’t need Pikemen with our hoplites around. The other consideration was Theology so we could make Sistene. But that costs 600 shields, a hell of a lot more than any of our cities can do right now.

Thermo changed to an Aqueduct.

90BC (3) The Egyptians and French are building the Hanging Gardens.

Pharsalos builds a boat, Marketplace cued up. Elite sword and Hoplite land by Kiev. Horse and other elite sword go into boat for next turn.

Argos founded on the landbridge. Library ordered up.

The Babs make peace with Russia.

70BC (4) The babs are building the great library and the hanging gardens. India cues up HG too.

I establish an embassy with India. Delhi has the Oracle, Great Wall, and is working on the GL, due in 34. They have iron and horses, and have 2 wines.

I decide to slow down our research and increase our gold. I move to 7/1/2, feudalism in 38, +40 gpt. We are going to need gold to rush build stuff in the Russian territory. The only tech that anyone else knows is Republic.

Sparta grows to size 11. Scientist ordered up. Adjust slider to 8/0/2.

50BC (5) I get to make an attack! Our elite sword kills the Kiev spearman. Despite the palace being present, the city is auto-raised. Bah.

Without the GL, I was hoping for, Sparta changed to a cathedral, due in 2.

Myceana founded next to the gems! The Babs are now Furious with us. I presume that they thought they would claim those….. YOU LOSE, HAMMI :frog:

30BC (6) Move workers, move galleys to go finish off the Russians at Sevastapol.

10BC (7) The Russians have the balls to land a warrior next to Purple. I had been following their boat around our continent with a swordsman, so he is close by, but not exactly there yet….

Our golden age ends. Revolution Begins. We will gain control in 5 turns………

I cycle through each city to make sure the peace is kept.

10AD (8) Purple’s warrior survives the Russian attack. Barely.

I dial everyone up to check on the price of Republic. I can get it from Mahatma for 100gp, WM and ROP. Since we are headed to Monarchy, I decline at the moment.

30AD (9) Move workers.

50AD (10) Our attack begins on Sevastapol. We lose 1 of our elite swords to a spearman who had 1 HP left for a Loooooooooooong time. Grrr………

Diplo check. Everyone but Joan is annoyed with us. Ghandi has the best price on Republic. No other techs out there.

So ends the reign of Ridgelake III. :)
 
Ummm, the US got spanked by Poland but still gets to move on to the second round anyway. :rolleyes: Here's the write-up:

Critique for Ridgelake:

150BC: You discussed using a palace prebuild in Sparta. We should, in fact, move the Palace to Sparta permanently as soon as it's out of other important things to build. Sparta is much more centrally located for our initial core of cities than Athens is. With this few cities, it will also complete in a resonable time. I like Kish, Argos, or Nippur for a Forbidden Palce location, which we may have to build ourselves. More discussion on that as we progress on in the game. A marketplace provides no happiness benefit with only 2 luxuries, so I think an aqueduct should come before marketplace in Thermoplyae. It seems you agreed because you changed this later. Pharsalos is a "fishing town", with almost no shields but designed to pull in lots of commerce. It definitely needs a marketplace, then a harbor. I like the placement of the two cities; sure they overlap, but we can always disband one if needed and for now we have complete control over the penninsula. Babylon cannot reinforce Kish except by sea; when war comes, that city is toast.

130BC: Do we need another galley? At the time we probably did, so this isn't a bad switch. Since Pharsolas is a low-shield region, it may not have been the best city to choose though. But overall it's not a big deal. Always a good move to buy workers. :)

110BC: We are not going for a horse -> cavalry upgrade, we're going for a horse -> knight upgrade. I'm sure you're aware of this, but I want to avoid confusion here. The contact trades were good; we ended up with knowledge of all the other civs, got their world maps, and got all known techs. But the difference is that now that we have world contact, we DON'T want to be researching anymore. It will be cheaper to buy into known techs. So we should pull off the research when we get out of anarchy. The only tech we need to research is Chivalry, since the AI often ignores it, and we don't want to do that until just before the attack so we can continue to build horsemen. We also need about 1500g for the massive upgrade. :D

70BC: More good moves with the embassies. It's always handy to have them in place as soon as possible. I see you cut back the research to 10%, but there's no reason to go even that much. The 10% is a waste; we should be at 0%. There's no way the AI civs will take 38 turns to research Feudalism, so we're just wasting some potential gold here. I see that you noticed that yourself and changed it again later this turn with a scientist in Sparta. Good job! :goodjob:

50BC: It's a shame Kiev was auto-razed. We want another city there ASAP, in the exact same location. It's a great site close to our capital, and we know Babylon will get there if we daudle. Getting the gems is a MAJOR coup for us! [dance]

10BC: Always check the cities when revolting to prevent civil disorder and starvation. 5-turn anarchy is about average; at least we stayed away from the dreaded 8-turn one.

10AD: We don't need Republic, true, but we will be going to it eventually so I recommend picking it up soon. You mentioned the ROP too... we should try and see if we can squeeze some gold from one of the civs on the other island for a ROP that means nothing.

50AD: Hopefully next turn we can wipe Russia off the face of the earth... ;)

Suggestions: The next turn is mostly an infrastructure one. We want marketplaces and cathedrals in most of the big cities, and aqueducts for those that need them. When cities are completely done with these improvements, have them start building horses. Save our gold, except we need some culture in the two new cities of Mycenae and Argos, so rush libraries there. We will need roughly 1500g to upgrade 20 horsemen to knight and attack. Overall, just continue to play it cool and we will take out Babylon with no problems. Excellent work so far from the team! :cool:

SUL4_50AD.jpg


The former location of Kiev is circled.

Sulla
OPEN SPOT (Erik Mesoy may be joining us here)
Ridgelake
MingTheMerciles <<< UP NOW
Ziggy <<< on deck
 
Why, I do believe I WOULD ike to join, as I have just beaten Monarch easily.

Spooky... Running over Babs now, just like in Sul3 TDG.
 
Erik Mesoy has filled the open spot in the turn rotation. The new order looks like this:

Sulla
Erik Mesoy
Ridgelake
MingTheMerciles (knows he's up)
Ziggy <<< on deck

Erik: Have no fear, your high score will be exceeded by this game. ;) We will be playing this one through to the end, guaranteed.
 
A couple of minor notes to my turn.

I probably could have gotten us some more gold in the trades once contact was made with the other civs. I brokered contacts with Babs and Russia. When those other civs had a turn, it would have given them the chance to sell WMs. We had a full WM, the only one out there, and I did not take particular advantage of it. :cry:

I did notice that the new civs were a LOT more interested in contact with the Babs than the Russians. They KNEW that there was nothing left to Russia. :eek:

I am guessing that there is a small island north of Pharsalos. Take a look at the water colors. It remains sea up there, not deep ocean. It will still likely be too far from our capital to ever amount to anything. But who knows, maybe it has some luxuries.

Question for you Sulla, why is Sparta back on marketplace? I am almost positive that it was on Cathedral when I closed up. A marketplace would have lost a bunch of shields........

Ridge

Edit: There are at least two spearmen in the Russian city. Some more offense may need to be brought over to finish the deal.
 
Originally posted by Ridgelake
Question for you Sulla, why is Sparta back on marketplace? I am almost positive that it was on Cathedral when I closed up. A marketplace would have lost a bunch of shields........

I don't think I changed production when I opened up the save file and took the picture; maybe I did accidentally? But I really don't think so. In any case, MingTheMerciles should change Sparta to Cathedral as soon as he plays his turn. :)
 
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