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[BTS] Sullla's AI Survivor Season Eight - Game 8 Thread

lymond

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Sullla's AI Survivor Season 8 continues on August 2nd on Sullla's Twitch Channel at noon EDT.

AI Survivor returns this week after a stunning domination victory by Her Highness Lizzy of England in Game 7. This is the final regular season game before the playoffs. The seeded leaders are the mighty Julius Caesar of Rome with his Praets and the back-stabb-y Louie XIV of France with his...erm..Salon. This match appears to lean toward a warmonger game, but there are no true psychos in the field.

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Watch the preview here, read up on the game here, and join in the fun by making your predictions here. (You can check out the current picks here). And a hearty welcome to all to discuss the game in this thread and follow along for what will hopefully continue to be a dynamic and entertaining season!

And if one contest just isn't enough, check out the friendly betting game thread presented by @Fippy (AKA My)!
 
Last edited:
The Game 8 announcement has been posted to the Main Page as well.

I already picked:

1st - Cyrus
2nd - Louie
FTD - JC (cause I am nuts)
Domination
13 wars
 
Before I voted I looked viewanalytics and saw there was no vote for De Gaul but 2 votes for Lincoln!
so I picked
1st - De Gaulle
2nd - Louis XIV
FTD - Lincoln
Space

My read was:
-Julius floodplains screams like he is going to be another disappointment along with Kublai/Suryavarman
-Cyrus horses scare me like a Stalin dagger mode
-Augustus coastline worries me like another Zara let down performance
-Suleiman seems like a Asoka/Pericles wildcard appearance
-Lincoln is on absolute dogpile alert, Hammurabi never received!
-De Gaulle makes me feel like a Ramesses outlier
-Louis gives the impression of jumping on score after mid game like Pacal comeback.

Now, I can mostly see Cyrus,De Gaulle,Julius or Louis win this and come second.
I don't see Lincoln and Augustus surviving this at all
Suleiman is a mixed leader inclined to go for pathetic culture victories at times. He is another member of competition's unlucky leaders with terrible starts/outcomes. He is a top 10 AI nevertheless and Sulla's society won't get to see him being good for another year it seems... :dunno:
 
Not that many religious guys here, I'm putting my money on Louis having a dominant religion game with wonder spam. Augustus must hold back JC until Louis can convert him, the same goes for Lincoln and Cyrus. After that, with enough good cities and the right wonder spam, he can roll the tech tree up and go culture mode at a good tech lead.

Second is up for grabs, I put it on Suleiman, but a lot of things could happen.
 
Yeah, no Myst starts I believe. Link might be a candidate to for early, but really it is anyone's game here as far as reli's
 
This is a big game for me - I have no less than three of its leaders on my fantasy team! It's probably not an exaggeration to say that how this game goes decides whether I remain in contention with Kjotleik or am reduced to fighting for second or third place. I'm also going to be able to catch it live for once!

Seeding Watch:

Julius Caesar
is currently the #6 seeded leader, with a total score of 37 points. While he's only four points ahead of the top Pool Two leader, I think his Pool One position is probably safe for another season regardless of what happens here; three different leaders would need to outpace him and I just don't think that's very likely with how the season has played out. Possible, if something like Gilgamesh/Sury/Mehmed all did well in the playoff round, but not likely. If he does do well, he can regain some of the ground he's lost across the opening round. A single kill puts him above Kublai for the #5 spot. A win, or second place with at least one kill would move him above Pacal. A win with a kill would put him above Justinian. Can he re-assert himself, or will he become more of a Stalin-esque faded star?

Louis XIV is currently the #14 seeded leader, with a total score of 25 points and 17 in the most recent season. He is only a single point above the top unseeded leaders, and it's very possible he loses his seeded status if he fails to accomplish anything this season, although by no means guaranteed. He can also move up: a single kill puts him above Charlemagne, second place puts him above Mehmed again, a win or a two-kill second place puts him above Gandhi and Darius, and an impressive three-kill win would put him above Sury and at the top of Pool Two.

The big unseeded leader to watch is Cyrus, who with 24 points is currently tied for the #17 seed. That means that just a single point would put him back in the ranks of the seeded, knocking out Mao Zedong. A win would put him above everybody up to and including Darius, right back at the top of Pool Two once more. It's a golden opportunity for the old star to reclaim some glory; can he seize it?



All right, the map. Honestly, after looking over this map again, my read is largely the same as it was in the preseason. I think it's likely that Sillyman and De Lol over to the west are going to be a side attraction, and the real game will be among the five leaders in the eastern blob. Things can often fall to pieces quickly, of course, but the mostly likely outcome would seem to be that Lincoln and Augustus, the high peaceweight sore thumbs, get dogpiled out, leaving Cyrus, Julius, and Louis to fight it out for the playoff spots. I'd be pretty shocked if none of the trio advanced to the playoffs, and I think probably it's most likely that two of them move on?

The other general note I have on the map is that this one is very spacious. We'll see how that plays out; combined with the militaristic/non-economic bent of the field, this could be a long one. On the other hand, with four Imperialistic leaders, it might still fill up pretty quickly.

The biggest focus going in will be on Julius Caesar. He's the Pool One leader, the favorite so far in the picking contest, and at a cool 50 :gold: was my biggest fantasy pickup, intended to be one of the cornerstones of my team. (Along with Saladin, who... we saw how that worked out.) And he does seem to have the most available territory to peacefully settle of any leader, which in theory ought to result in him being a major player. My hope when I shelled out the cash for him was that this would be a big return-to-glory game for him, where he leverages his early advantage to snowball over the rest of the map. There's other points in his favor as well: he has a decently central position that should allow him plenty of flexibility, and he also has excellent diplomatic prospects. His western neighbors are probably going to be Suleiman and Cyrus, and it should be pretty easy for him to get up to Pleased with them and rule out backstabs from that direction - especially since they'll both have closer neighbors that they're more likely to get entangled with first. His eastern neighbors are likely to be Lincoln and Augustus, who are less aggressive and likely to have their own problems. As a result, Caesar should have a strong territorial base, easy access to multiple possible conquests (the most likely of which he'll probably have help with), and low odds of getting dogpiled; should be a recipe for a good performance, right? As long as he doesn't do something silly like attacking Cyrus 1-on-1 first?

The concerns with Caesar's start are that it isn't especially strong land - there's no capital synergy and in particular, he's going to suffer early on from a lack of luxuries - and the possibility that it's too much land and he just crashes his economy and stagnates before he can get the conquest train rolling. These have the Discord crew largely dismissing his chances. I hope they're wrong! We shall see. It's worth noting that he had a pretty similar start in the Season 5 playoffs (described by Sullla as probably the worst starting position on the map) and yet did the best in the alternate histories. Maybe something like that can happen here. I'm relying on it!

Louis XIV has the least available land of the eastern warmongers and what he does have looks mostly rather dry. His biggest hope is to use the copper at his capital to take some early land and/or benefit from dogpiles. The other hope he has lies in the rather low cultural emphasis on this group; if left alone and able to tech fairly well, he could sneak out another Cultural win. I suspect, though, that his most likely outcome is to go to war early with Augustus or Lincoln and hamstring both his target and himself; he'll contribute to the warmongers' success out here, but it will be Cyrus or Caesar leveraging that to an actual win, not Louis. Second place could happen. He could also easily get frisky later on and backstab a strong Persia/Rome, getting himself knocked out in the process. That's not to say there's no hope for him; in particular, if Lincoln replicates his performance from last year, that could easily translate into a Louis win. But I feel like he's the shakiest bet of this trio.

Then there's Cyrus, who has a similar position to Caesar. His position isn't quite as flexible - he trades Augustus for De Gaulle as a neighbor, which I suspect mainly reduces odds of a successful dogpile - but he has less concern of too much space to expand than Julius does, and between likely early gold and Charismatic trait will have a higher happy cap. These factors are the main ones in his favor and have resulted in him having more support on the Discord. On the other hand, his position is also more dangerous, I think. De Gaulle could be a thorn in his side, and Julius backstabbing him is much more likely than him backstabbing Julius thanks to willingness to declare at Pleased. Cyrus is more likely to get knocked out by a dogpile, and I think is likely to be one of the most boom-or-bust leaders on the map. Playoffs or total elimination?

And then there's the ones whom I expect to be hapless victims. Augustus Caesar definitely has the better position of the two, with two immediately improvable resources and a corner start. If he can, say, play nice with Julius and use Praetorians to smack down Louis, then he could definitely advance and make something of this game. However, I think this has to be considered the lower-odds outcome; it's more likely that he fails to substantially advance his position until getting dogpiled by Louis and Julius. Neither one can easily be made a reliable ally, which won't help, there's no guarantee he even gets Praets (metals should be easy, but the iron is definitely within the margin of Louis's free Creative culture swallowing it up), and his opening will probably be slow overall with all those trees in the area. I'm guessing the starting gold will do little more than ensuring he doesn't totally crash his economy. I do have more respect for Augustus than some of the community, but I still think he faces long odds in this contest.

Not as long of odds as Lincoln, though! His start isn't bad, and all those furs + silver + Charismatic will give him a high happy cap early on. He would be the best techer of this group by a country mile... if it weren't for the fact that he's virtually guaranteed to be attacked early and often. Louis and Cyrus are probably most likely to go after him early on, and I don't think the odds are that bad of Julius/Suleiman/De Gaulle going after his high peaceweight as well. Without metal until iron, there's even the possibility of him folding dramatically early, which would definitely tilt the scales toward Cyrus or Louis. I don't know how likely that is, but in any case a strong Lincoln would almost certainly be an outlier result. He's on my fantasy team, but I don't mind admitting that I was banking pretty much entirely on First to Die points when I picked him up.

Then there's the western duo, who I think will struggle to be relevant on this map. De Gaulle is the better situated of the duo. He at least has immediately-improvable corn at the capital... and then pretty much all forests beyond that. As I recall this tends to slow the AI down, and the quality of land around his capital is mixed. Nothing super juicy here. The bigger problem is Cyrus to his east; I doubt De Gaulle can contend for the win without expanding through Persia, and just how likely is he to be able to pull that off? There's a good chance that there are alternate histories where he dogpiles him along with Julius, or something like that, and snowballs from there, but I doubt it's a normal result. Failing that, I imagine his best hope is to absorb Suleiman and backdoor second place. I suspect the eastern warmongers will be too strong for that to be a reliable option, though.

Suleiman faces even worse odds, though, as outside of that corn and copper, his whole starting area is pretty yucky. I don't think he'll be very strong at all, and won't have the leverage to accomplish much militarily or economically. Wildcard's a possibility as his peaceweight and nearby neighbors give him decent odds to avoid trouble, but I'd be surprised to see him do more than that. He's on my fantasy team, but I mostly picked him up out of a philosophy of grabbing as many leaders as I could. He's on the right side PW-wise, so he was worth a small sum just in case. My expectations are low, though.



Picking for this game is tough. I find myself unwilling to fully back either Cyrus or Louis in their struggle in the east; even less so for the longshot odds of Augustus, De Gaulle, or Suleiman. And I'm terrified that I'll jinx JC if I pick him.

On a side note, I'm doing really badly in the picking contest. The current top score is 86... and I'm at 23 despite having submitted an entry for every game! It gets "better" - my average is 3.29 points over the first seven games. I looked, and that is the worst average in the entire contest among all entrants who have submitted picks for more than two games. Yeah, I'm really bad at this! :crazyeye:

So I don't feel any qualms from that perspective of backing the remaining leader: Lincoln. He is probably the least or second-least likely leader to win on this map. But if it somehow does happen and I actually nail the dynamics for once, how sweet will that be! And if Cyrus, whom I probably would have picked otherwise, wins, oh well, I would have still been about 50 points behind with five games to go. Not much of a loss.

My logic, therefore, for a Lincoln win, is that he somehow gets totally left alone as Louis stalemates against Augustus and the western four leaders get caught up in their own struggles. Eventually, with a tech lead, Lincoln works with Augustus to partition Louis, and the two are then strong enough to absorb and counter later attacks by Cyrus and JC, eventually taking the top two spots as Lincoln wins by space. Suleiman as FTD as his weak position allows JC to conquer him early before falling behind in tech.
 
For Julius to have any kind of happiness he needs calendar, requireing lots of research and thus early pottery. Knowing him I think he will expand like mad and probably delay pottery. He does have a lot of calendar resources so I think he is likely to go for an "early" calendar. Once he has calendar he will be strong.

Cyrus has IMHO a better position, mostly due to less happiness concerns. He also has accessible gold resources for early commerce and his capital is actually on the river, helping for trade routes. He still may be stupid and settle away from the river, but I see him in the drivers seat for this game. I think that he will not settle the horses too early saving him from stupid early plotting.

Augustus has the big advantage of a start with great synergy with his starting techs. I think he will found one of the early religions. He will not do much else. For the other Religion I think it is a toss-up between Louis and Sulei, simply due to their culture flavour.

Louis has Copper in the first ring of his capital and with his neighbours will probably plot early on. I also think that him and Lincoln will expand towards each other. If he catches Lincoln before he gets metals he will have a great position. He also is the only Leader which I can imagine winning by Culture in this game. I think he will found 3-5 Religions. The big question relating to culture is if it is faster than domination. If Cyrus and Julius get into inconclusive wars or stay at peace I think this is a very likely outcome. On the other hand I imagine no one will really spread religions, so if Louis hoards them Julius and Cyrus will probably end up having the same Religion and Louis, in a different Religion, being a target.

For the other Leaders I think they will all play only marginal roles, and have nothing to add about their situations.
 
Honestly this one seems fairly wide open and I see 4 leaders having decent odds with multiple paths to victory. Only things I would say for sure - Lincoln is doomed, Suleimon is going to be a non entity in the game but has good odds to live to the wildcard if he doesn't suicide dec late game into someone two generations ahead, and De Gaulle is De Gaulle, he's the worst AI personality in the game imo and even what is probably the best start he's gotten so far for his traits and techs won't give him a chance at winning. His only outside shot at 2nd would be founding a religion, spreading it to cyrus and Suleimon, and riding a Cyrus domination to an undeserving 2nd place. And that's like 2% odds.
I'm probably leaning towards Louis by culture being most likely, he competes with Augustus for wonders bu his cap has great production and he can get marble up north in time for most of the marble wonders. But again, so many branches for this game to take.
 
I totally agree and have always noticed Sullla downplays that trait. Honestly, most passive traits are good for the AIs cause they don't hafta think about it.
 
I've modified my prediction to have Cyrus in second instead. Thinking about it more, in the hypothetical game setup I laid out, I don't see how Cyrus or Julius isn't too big compared to Augustus to finish in second instead. Augustus would have to go on a regular conquering spree if he spent the first 200 turns of the game stalemating on Louis, so my official prediction is that instead, Cyrus has gained enough land in the last to easily coast into second, probably while the Caesars squabble.

I'll also note that random.org has predicted a Lincoln Domination victory for this week. It predicted Hammurabi Domination in the opener and was right. Could it be right again...?
 
I think people may be dismissing the western leaders a tad too readily.
Sure, they're not favourites for the win... but I would posit that one of them ending up as the runner-up is a very likely outcome.

Conflict between De Gaulle and Suleiman does seem almost inevitable (I suppose there are some fringe cases where it wouldn't happen).
I believe there are two possibilities :
  • It's a 1v1. The earlier the conflict happens, the better it is for De Gaulle : he'll have the edge early on, but once Sully has been able to clear the jungle and tech up, advantage Sully I believe. Good news for De Gaulle though, I believe a late conflict to be the less likely hypothesis.
  • It's a 2v1 : Cyrus + Sully vs De Gaulle. In that case, De Gaulle FTD is very much in play.
On the Eastern front, Louis and Lincoln should build up border tension early... and yet I don't think this is a very likely early conflict.
I think that in this field, Louis founding an early religon is almost guaranteed, and that religion spreading early to Lincoln is also very likely. That should mean Louis will be more likely to DoW Augustus (and actually, there's a good chance Augustus opens hostilies).
So IMO the recurring conflict in the East will be between Augustus and Louis.
If it remains a 1v1 (Julius busy with Cyrus for instance), I don't fancy Louis' odds at all (praetorians). Could even be FTD.
But Julius vs Augustus is also bound to happen at some point, and if that means Augustus at the receiving end of a 2v1, then he could be FTD.

Speaking of Julius... I think it unlikely he'll attack Suleiman. DoWing Lincoln should be more common. But I believe he's by far more likely to attack Augustus or Cyrus (and since he's Julius, probably both).

As for Cyrus, he can either go East (Lincoln) or West (De Gaulle). I don't think he's very likely to pick an early fight with Julius.

OK, let's not turn that into too much of a textwall.

Cyrus :
To me, the clear favourite.
But no an overwhelming favourite : ~40-50% range ?
Also, where he goes first should shape the game : if he goes East and conquers Lincoln, that's almost GG. He goes West instead, I think his odds plummet.

Lincoln :
He's simply doomed.
He might be left alone at first and thus troll those who picked him as FTD, but sooner rather than later one of the big boys is going to come knocking.

Louis :
I don't think he has a shot.
First, he'll have to survive his conflict with Augustus.
Then, I believe his religion won't spread to the other major players : he's not good at spreading his religion, and he's off the main river system. So he'll end up as a target for all other major players.

Augustus :
I actually favour his odds over Julius's.
Augustus is a decent condidate for FTD, while I don't think Julius is at any such risk.
But if Augustus doesn't die early, then it's a game where he's likely to conquer Louis and beat off Julius. And from there... he'll be unstoppable.
To me, he's the second most likely leader to win this game, but quite some distance from Cyrus.

Julius :
Sure, he'll win some.
But he'll struggle more IMO.
There's a good chance indeed he'll tank his economy early, so he won't be an early juggernaut.
If he goes after Cyrus first, he'll lose.
If he goes after Augustus first, he'll share the spoils with Louis while Cyrus solo-conquers Lincoln : Cyrus will be even stronger when he goes after him.

De Gaulle :
Decent FTD candidate, best runner-up, unlikely winner.

Suleiman :
I don't think he's FTD : an early elimination would come from De Gaulle solo-conquering him, and that should be slow enough that someone else dies first.
Decent shot at runner-up (if he lives), but I think he can actually win a few. That wouldn't be a Domination win, I don't think he has a shot at that, but with Lincoln out of the way, he'd be the best techer. If he can get up to 12ish cities, he could slip in a surprise Spaceship win.


Cyrus 1st / De Gaulle runner-up / Lincoln FTD / Domination is probably the best and safest pick.
Augustus 1st / ?? 2nd / Louis FTD / Spaceship would still have decent odds while being uncommon.
And if only a gamble can keep you in the game, I'd go with Suleiman 1st / ?? 2nd / De Gaulle FTD / Spaceship. Low odds, but not miracle territory.
 
1st - Cyrus
2nd - Louis
FTD - Lincoln
Wars - 15
Victory - Dom
Turn - 300

Louis goes for Lincoln, but Cyrus' Domination Victory is faster than his Culture. Louis still gets second place due to having Lincoln's territory and lots of culture.
I believe Louis actually winning Culture is a 10% outcome.
 
This is a competent field with the exception of Lincoln. Conveniently, he has a central position with very plausible first-to-die odds. If you have ever seen Lincoln win, it can be kind of exciting to see him snowball into science or domination from very dim prospects. After all, he is one of the oddballs to have science as a research flavor. On this map, it appears than Lincoln and Louis will settle toward one another. While both can lose, Lincoln has very little to his advantage in the early game.

I am rather partial to Louis and can see easy paths to victory. While he is a little cramped, I like his land and potential for early expansion. I would also give him decent odds to snowball off Lincoln. Augustus and more broadly diplomacy could be problems, but Louis is a fast winner who will press culture in a corner to catch the rest of the field off guard. Obviously, the counter is the Sullla criticism that he gets caught out trying to do everything at once, but what's not to love about Sun King maximalism?

I am less excited about Julius Caesar. Land quality is not great, but he has Imperialistic and a lot of land. While Julius Caesar is capable of fast victories as well, I imagine he will settle into his corner instead of toward the center due to the desert between the two Romes. I am don't see the right setup for a domination snowball, and I prefer to think of him blobbing to second.

Augustus is probably underrated, and this seems a highly variable start. There is high potential to settle jungle right off the bat, but he could also forward settle Julius Caesar or Louis, with the latter suffering more. In his corner, Augustus seems classic second place material if he can survive.

Cyrus has a good start, but I don't love his track record for winning. Sure, he could snowball off Lincoln as well, or take part in any other dogpile. For me, the issue boils down to end-game diplomacy: his position seems the least defensible if we are left with four warmongers. He does seem likely to benefit from the land grab, as I expect Julius Caesar not to contest the middle right away.

De Gaulle--a chronically underrated leader. Just for reference, he had a 25% chance of winning his opening round last season and 10% in the playoffs. He tends to play the financial leader in the absence of financial leaders. With a corner position and decent land quality, I expect him to contest the tech pace and wonders. It seems plausible he could win in the absence of a fast victory condition, but more generally I see him competing for second.

Poor Suleiman. I almost see the potential of this start, but he suffers the same risk of awful jungle cities as Augustus without nearly as much land to work with. A great start would be smart settles that link up to the middle of the map, but he could easily be stuck in his corner. I like Suleiman as a leader, but I think other leaders have more legible starts.

Now for the offbeat diplomacy read: If Julius Caesar rolls high on peace weight, the French leaders would be up against a neutral-high majority. I am not convinced the two Romes will go to war all that soon or that Julius Caesar would intervene if Augustus declared on Louis. The converse, of course, is that peace weight means next to nothing this season :run:
 
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