Sullla's AI Survivor Season Eight - Playoff Game 3 Thread
- Thread starter Keler
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Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
No champ game next week; it will be in 2 WEEKS. Make sure to make note!
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Moo!
Keler
Prince
Pericles did me dirty with that war declaration on Sitting Bull. But isn't that the summary of this entire season... this time it happens between higher pws.
Most iconic ones are Stalin,Cyrus and now this: Sitting Bull the victim. Beautiful river valley central positions gone wrong this season.
If only Qin Shi Huang had some better land with RIVERS please, he could really do something instead of being random and irrelevant maybe.
Then Churchill decided to never vote for diplo victory condition. Boo... so annoying.
Churchill did nothing, just well fed by Victoria this game. So many minor events change to direction of the game, no rifling Victoria is one more of that.
Most iconic ones are Stalin,Cyrus and now this: Sitting Bull the victim. Beautiful river valley central positions gone wrong this season.
If only Qin Shi Huang had some better land with RIVERS please, he could really do something instead of being random and irrelevant maybe.
Then Churchill decided to never vote for diplo victory condition. Boo... so annoying.
Churchill did nothing, just well fed by Victoria this game. So many minor events change to direction of the game, no rifling Victoria is one more of that.
Saxo Grammaticus
Clerk
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And we get a Championship peaceweight composition of 10, 9, 9, 8, 6, and 2. Tell me that doesn't tell a story!
The Rook
King
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Thanks Plains-Cow! Sorry I had to bet against the pasture for FTD, but paradoxically those 5 points secured a pasture win!
Thanks Kaitzilla, I think we're currently 10th. It's a shame we can't combine our scores, it might have given us a chance of catching haphazard1 in the overall contest!
Plain Cow had Church 1st and 2nd, still first place
Yes, I bet the house on Churchill! I thought backing Churchill for 1st and 2nd might yield a good chance of a decent score at the expense of any realistic chance of outright winning. To be fair, at no point did I ever consider backing Qin for 2nd, so this plan went as well as I could have hoped.
I confess, my faith in Churchill did wane for a while, particularly when he prioritised Stock Exchanges over Construction during his insane civil war!
Thrasybulos
Prince
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Congrats The Rook and the others who did well. 
Started well with Pericles croaking, ending less well (especially with the silly liberation cascade which prevented the Domination victory: although it ended up not happening here, I'm now convinced that Domination is indeed the most likely outcome on this map).
I don't think what we got was the most likely outcome, but nothing struck me as way out of whack either.
Viccy drew the worst scenario for her: Churchill attacking (a strong possibility) while the only guy she couldn't attack because of the religious situation was the one she had to attack (Pericles).
Qin slipping into second place was a remote possibility I'd mentionned (his start is very safe if he doesn't get killed by SB).
Probably the only thing that seemed weird was Pericles attacking SB: the other way round (SB attacking Pericles) should be more common. And if SB attacks Pericles after dealing with Qin (getting peace), then SB gets most of the spoils, not Mehmed.
As for the Championship... always the least interesting game to try and predict (no map reading), so I'm not sure I'm going to try and bother. Qin FTD, Mansa and Elizabeth favourites with always the possibility of Gandhi winning. Duh.
I have doubts about the map, though.
It's a damn fine-looking map, and I can certainly appreciate the effort that went into making it... but it reminds me of attempts I made some years back. Maps which felt interesting and clever... and just didn't work for the AI.
I hope they did a few test runs on it.
With the capitals so far apart, we could end up with a game where basically nothing happens (instinctively, I would have set the capitals near the base of each arm, instead of near the tip). Or one AI could settle the middle before the others, locking most of them out. War against Qin could be a trap: logistics line will be so long that slowly conquering more territory could actually set the conqueror so far back that it would prove a losing proposition (when the opposite should be true).
So, hmmm, yeah. I dunno.
Also, is it a standard map from a larger template (like Donut), or a large map (would have an impact on tech rate)?
Started well with Pericles croaking, ending less well (especially with the silly liberation cascade which prevented the Domination victory: although it ended up not happening here, I'm now convinced that Domination is indeed the most likely outcome on this map).
I don't think what we got was the most likely outcome, but nothing struck me as way out of whack either.
Viccy drew the worst scenario for her: Churchill attacking (a strong possibility) while the only guy she couldn't attack because of the religious situation was the one she had to attack (Pericles).
Qin slipping into second place was a remote possibility I'd mentionned (his start is very safe if he doesn't get killed by SB).
Probably the only thing that seemed weird was Pericles attacking SB: the other way round (SB attacking Pericles) should be more common. And if SB attacks Pericles after dealing with Qin (getting peace), then SB gets most of the spoils, not Mehmed.
As for the Championship... always the least interesting game to try and predict (no map reading), so I'm not sure I'm going to try and bother. Qin FTD, Mansa and Elizabeth favourites with always the possibility of Gandhi winning. Duh.
I have doubts about the map, though.
It's a damn fine-looking map, and I can certainly appreciate the effort that went into making it... but it reminds me of attempts I made some years back. Maps which felt interesting and clever... and just didn't work for the AI.
I hope they did a few test runs on it.
With the capitals so far apart, we could end up with a game where basically nothing happens (instinctively, I would have set the capitals near the base of each arm, instead of near the tip). Or one AI could settle the middle before the others, locking most of them out. War against Qin could be a trap: logistics line will be so long that slowly conquering more territory could actually set the conqueror so far back that it would prove a losing proposition (when the opposite should be true).
So, hmmm, yeah. I dunno.
Also, is it a standard map from a larger template (like Donut), or a large map (would have an impact on tech rate)?
ManiaMuse89
Warlord
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My season has been dreadful but I finally got a 1st + 2nd combination correct and didn't have to scroll down to see my results!
I also went for a diplomatic moonshoot which wasn't a million miles away if Churchill had just called the vote.
Championship final is so weak though. I can't see it being anything other than a Mansa or Gandhi very early cultural win, maybe leaning towards Gandhi as the starting area doesn't have that many river tiles to benefit Mansa. The core cities are going to be so far from each other and protected with lots of backfill room so we shouldn't have any leaders stuck on 5 cities. It could be very boringly balanced. The borders are probably going to be quite easy to defend as well, a 2v1 will not be as damaging in this situation if two other AIs are attacking the same city with longbows on a hill.
I have been running my own series on random maps/random leader map combinations. My assessment of the leaders based on the my results is:
Mansa - Very solid leader, definitely top 10 overall although there are a few leaders which seem to have slightly more consistent success. Favours cultural victory with very occasional space victories.
Gandhi - Extremely high death rate, however riduculously high win rate if he does survive (so the playoff game where he came 2nd was a bit of an oddball result). Nearly always goes culture (often with extremely early finishing dates), although very rarely can win by space as well.
Augustus + Churchill - Two very similar leaders so put them together. Both very mid-table leaders, not that many wins but usually very dominant when they do win. Mix of win conditions although both have oddly pulled off multiple diplomatic victories so maybe we get something like that to spoil the Mansa/Gandhi party if the game is very peaceful.
Qin - Upper-bottom tier. Doesn't really do anything. Very high survival rate, however very low win rate as well.
Elizabeth - Ignore Sulla's ramblings, Liz is a bottom 5 leader. Even worse survival rate than Gandhi and very few wins either. Only thing that might save her is the game being full of peaceniks.
I also went for a diplomatic moonshoot which wasn't a million miles away if Churchill had just called the vote.
Championship final is so weak though. I can't see it being anything other than a Mansa or Gandhi very early cultural win, maybe leaning towards Gandhi as the starting area doesn't have that many river tiles to benefit Mansa. The core cities are going to be so far from each other and protected with lots of backfill room so we shouldn't have any leaders stuck on 5 cities. It could be very boringly balanced. The borders are probably going to be quite easy to defend as well, a 2v1 will not be as damaging in this situation if two other AIs are attacking the same city with longbows on a hill.
I have been running my own series on random maps/random leader map combinations. My assessment of the leaders based on the my results is:
Mansa - Very solid leader, definitely top 10 overall although there are a few leaders which seem to have slightly more consistent success. Favours cultural victory with very occasional space victories.
Gandhi - Extremely high death rate, however riduculously high win rate if he does survive (so the playoff game where he came 2nd was a bit of an oddball result). Nearly always goes culture (often with extremely early finishing dates), although very rarely can win by space as well.
Augustus + Churchill - Two very similar leaders so put them together. Both very mid-table leaders, not that many wins but usually very dominant when they do win. Mix of win conditions although both have oddly pulled off multiple diplomatic victories so maybe we get something like that to spoil the Mansa/Gandhi party if the game is very peaceful.
Qin - Upper-bottom tier. Doesn't really do anything. Very high survival rate, however very low win rate as well.
Elizabeth - Ignore Sulla's ramblings, Liz is a bottom 5 leader. Even worse survival rate than Gandhi and very few wins either. Only thing that might save her is the game being full of peaceniks.
Saxo Grammaticus
Clerk
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A quick look at CFC success!
Playoff Three first page:
The Rook
ManiaMuse
=Kaitzilla
=Chalybion
=antimony
with Thrasybulos and civac tied a little further down
and a curious case of Schrödinger's picks placing danjuno in the above ties at 11 and 13.
Overall Contest:
Kaitzilla
=The Rook
SittinDown
=Slashin'
Playoff Three first page:
The RookManiaMuse
=Kaitzilla
=Chalybion
=antimony
with Thrasybulos and civac tied a little further down
and a curious case of Schrödinger's picks placing danjuno in the above ties at 11 and 13.
Overall Contest:
Kaitzilla
=The Rook
SittinDown
=Slashin'
The Rook
King
- Joined
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- 788
A quick look at CFC success!
Playoff Three first page:
ManiaMuse
=Kaitzilla
=Chalybion
=antimony
with Thrasybulos and civac tied a little further down
and a curious case of Schrödinger's picks placing danjuno in the above ties at 11 and 13.
Overall Contest:
Kaitzilla
=The Rook
SittinDown
=Slashin'
In addition, I think CFC has had at least 3 winners this season with:
Wildcard 1:
Kaitzillaand:
Game 7:
Saxo Grammaticus
Eauxps I. Fourgott
AI Survivor Nerd
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I am definitely salty that I was deprived of my all high PW Championship. Sitting Bull may not have had much more of a chance than Qin, but at least it would have opened up the diplomacy!
Total mess of a game. Mehmed probably deserved to win, but it was not to be. I hated seeing him do well this game, though, so I was happy to see him get knocked down in the end.
Churchill with his third straight championship has now scraped together enough points to be a Pool 2 leader for next season! So long Zara. He definitely was carried by his start here that let him lollygag for a long time.
Sitting Bull seemed permanently set back after the two front war fried his circuits.
Vicky let my fantasy team down (ZERO points from the wildcard round on! Oof) and I really wonder why it seems to be all the Financial leaders that have these expansion problems. Given the late tech pace, she would have easily won if she could have fended off Churchill/Mehmed's attacks.
Pericles torpedoed his and Sitting Bull's games at the same time. It's like his Season 4 game where he attacked Lincoln to set up the high peaceweights for easy conquest. Very deserved elimination.
Finally, Qin was incredibly lucky to move on, but was at least smart enough to stay out of trouble.
I think my Sitting Bull 1st/Churchill 2nd/Mehmed FTD picks for this game were solid, even if they turned out to be wrong. Diplo goes a different way and it's probably looking like a pretty good choice...
Total mess of a game. Mehmed probably deserved to win, but it was not to be. I hated seeing him do well this game, though, so I was happy to see him get knocked down in the end.
Churchill with his third straight championship has now scraped together enough points to be a Pool 2 leader for next season! So long Zara. He definitely was carried by his start here that let him lollygag for a long time.
Sitting Bull seemed permanently set back after the two front war fried his circuits.
Vicky let my fantasy team down (ZERO points from the wildcard round on! Oof) and I really wonder why it seems to be all the Financial leaders that have these expansion problems. Given the late tech pace, she would have easily won if she could have fended off Churchill/Mehmed's attacks.
Pericles torpedoed his and Sitting Bull's games at the same time. It's like his Season 4 game where he attacked Lincoln to set up the high peaceweights for easy conquest. Very deserved elimination.
Finally, Qin was incredibly lucky to move on, but was at least smart enough to stay out of trouble.
I think my Sitting Bull 1st/Churchill 2nd/Mehmed FTD picks for this game were solid, even if they turned out to be wrong. Diplo goes a different way and it's probably looking like a pretty good choice...
Eauxps I. Fourgott
AI Survivor Nerd
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I know at least a little bit of testing was done, by Cut and by Sullla. I was talking with Cut at the time and some changes were made because of this; Sullla found it too small and also asked for the starts to be moved further into the arms. Cut also said that the test game he played did have its fair share of twists and turns, so we can be hopeful to get a similar show. If this doesn't just turn into a super fast Cultural victory because of who's in it, that is
Keler
Prince
do you have any map to share?
I am always curious what people make
For final map I am curious if the great lighthouse and colossus will become too powerful wonders doubling somebody's gold graph instantly.
Thrasybulos
Prince
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Good to know.I know at least a little bit of testing was done, by Cut and by Sullla. I was talking with Cut at the time and some changes were made because of this; Sullla found it too small and also asked for the starts to be moved further into the arms. Cut also said that the test game he played did have its fair share of twists and turns, so we can be hopeful to get a similar show. If this doesn't just turn into a super fast Cultural victory because of who's in it, that is
Sorry, no.do you have any map to share?
I am always curious what people make
It was a 4-5 years ago, and since they didn't work, I discarded them.
urbestfriend
Warlord
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- 170
A bit late but wanted to drop my thoughts about the game. This might sound weird since it goes against the game we saw, but I actually think that in the alt histories run, Sitting Bull and Mehmed will be the two strongest AIs overall. Victoria and Churchill will be 2nd tier and Pericles and Qin will be very weak low and scoring.
I think we saw a weaker than average game from Victoria with her getting caught on multiple poorly time wonder builds in a row her capital, combined with some barb cities popping up in her natural expansion path. These combined to leave her with only 5 cities but they were 5 amazing cities, and she basically gifted great cities and mature cottages to Churchill which propelled him to victory. I think in games where Vicky expands even moderately well, she probably won't win often but she can at least slow Churchill down enough.
That leads me to the other two pairs that I think will define the map and are linked together - the weaklings of Qin/Pericles and the fighters of Mehmed and SB. The more I watch these games the more I think weak neighbors determine success more than traits or personality or land, and I'm staking a claim here. I knew going in Qin would be weak but the game convinced me he will be even weaker than expected, and Pericles is in the same book. I think game after game, Mehmed and/or SB will carve up the weaklings like butter and have two civs of territory before Vicky can even think about ignoring rifling. Obviously there will be games where Mehmed and SB hit each other instead, and those will probably be the games that Vicky or Churchill win, but I imagine most games will be determined by who runs over their respective weakling faster.
So yeah, just a prediction bouncing around I wanted to throw out. A fun game even if it was a shame not to see Mehmed go to the championship again.
I think we saw a weaker than average game from Victoria with her getting caught on multiple poorly time wonder builds in a row her capital, combined with some barb cities popping up in her natural expansion path. These combined to leave her with only 5 cities but they were 5 amazing cities, and she basically gifted great cities and mature cottages to Churchill which propelled him to victory. I think in games where Vicky expands even moderately well, she probably won't win often but she can at least slow Churchill down enough.
That leads me to the other two pairs that I think will define the map and are linked together - the weaklings of Qin/Pericles and the fighters of Mehmed and SB. The more I watch these games the more I think weak neighbors determine success more than traits or personality or land, and I'm staking a claim here. I knew going in Qin would be weak but the game convinced me he will be even weaker than expected, and Pericles is in the same book. I think game after game, Mehmed and/or SB will carve up the weaklings like butter and have two civs of territory before Vicky can even think about ignoring rifling. Obviously there will be games where Mehmed and SB hit each other instead, and those will probably be the games that Vicky or Churchill win, but I imagine most games will be determined by who runs over their respective weakling faster.
So yeah, just a prediction bouncing around I wanted to throw out. A fun game even if it was a shame not to see Mehmed go to the championship again.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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I think this game goes very differently if Peri attacks Mehmed.
SB was the power leader at this point, so Peri basically committed suicide..SB also was one of his potential allies in peaceweight.
Just bad luck what the rng decides on war rolls.
SB was the power leader at this point, so Peri basically committed suicide..SB also was one of his potential allies in peaceweight.
Just bad luck what the rng decides on war rolls.
Eauxps I. Fourgott
AI Survivor Nerd
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In leiu of a new game during tomorrow's stream, Sullla will be beginning to run alternate histories for this one live on stream! (As well as revealing the results from Opening Round Game 3.)
Thrasybulos
Prince
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Damn, I thought he'd be running AH for the Championship game.
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