Sumer - CBP Compatable Custom Civs
- Thread starter Sun Pope
- Start date
Could have them available at the wheel instead of at horseback riding I suppose, but at that point they would have to not require horses as well (as you have not even discovered horses at that point).
Might just be better to stick with the Vultures?
Sun Pope
Warlord
I like the thought of donkey wagons, but I also think the Vultures would be a better option. They're more familiar to people who played Sid's Civs in the past. If more people like them though, I'll consider them.
@Funak: Ah, I see it now. I skimmed through to find it and didn't notice it because it was in a quote bubble
I like it, but as I said about the other one before it doesn't have much pizzaz. Then again, Sumer wasn't exactly extremely unique, even for an ancient Civ they seem like a less interesting Babylon to me. Not less important, just less interesting haha.
@Funak: Ah, I see it now. I skimmed through to find it and didn't notice it because it was in a quote bubble
I like it, but as I said about the other one before it doesn't have much pizzaz. Then again, Sumer wasn't exactly extremely unique, even for an ancient Civ they seem like a less interesting Babylon to me. Not less important, just less interesting haha.
@Funak: Ah, I see it now. I skimmed through to find it and didn't notice it because it was in a quote bubble
I like it, but as I said about the other one before it doesn't have much pizzaz. Then again, Sumer wasn't exactly extremely unique, even for an ancient Civ they seem like a less interesting Babylon to me. Not less important, just less interesting haha.
As I said, it is not really a finished UA, it need some flair. For America it was going to work together with the American cheap tile-purchases and free scouting (basically replacing the ability to buy owned tiles).
Sun Pope
Warlord
Perhaps to help encourage founding cities (as if extra pop and a free unit weren't enough), there could be some sort of boost to the capital or empire when you found a city?
Examples:
Boost in golden age points when founding cities
Gain territory in the capital when founding a city
Culture/Science boost empire wide
Starts a "We Love The King Day" in the capital
etc
Examples:
Boost in golden age points when founding cities
Gain territory in the capital when founding a city
Culture/Science boost empire wide
Starts a "We Love The King Day" in the capital
etc
I'm not sure encouraging founding even more would be a good idea, the civ is probably going to be military and you really don't want to get into a spot where people raze cities and found new ones just to get bonuses.
Other than that I like most of your suggestions. You could even do something unrelated like boosting specialists slightly or giving a bonus when you finish constructing buildings (just throwing ideas out that could possibly be used for other civs, there are a lot of unused mechanics).
Sun Pope
Warlord
Personally, I usually raze cities and found new ones anyway until about the Renaissance era, unless I'm playing Rome of course. There's just too much of a hassle to make up all the extra unhapiness for a puppeted city that has 4 buildings.
What extra unhappiness? You just annex it and build a courthouse.
Sun Pope
Warlord
The unhappiess it produces while in resistance (you do have this unhappiness when razing it too though) and while you are constructing the courthouse, which in most captured cities takes about 10-20 turns even if you fund it with gold. Plus, after all that is said and done you usually only have like 4 buildings in it, and then a otherwise useless courthouse that you have to pay gold to upkeep. I'm not saying that its always not worth doing, but in most cases theres no point in keeping an AI's 3 pop city when you could have your own in roughly the same amount of turns.
We COULD set up a counter that whenever you raise X amount of cities, the next X amount you found won't provide this bonus, however. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't raze annexed (or founded) cities anyway, as I've noticed all too late a few times while playing the huns
If you instant annex the city you get the courthouse auto-invested in the city, meaning you can usually finish building it in just a few turns. I usually find this a lot more reasonable than wasting my time building settlers in existing cities, especially if the city in question is already in a decent spot.
Anyways we could always have a founding bonus triggering on conquest as well, but there probably is some more interesting way of doing this.
Sun Pope
Warlord
I'm still not sure that having a Sumer player raze cities and start their own there rather than just annexing them is even a bad thing. Why DON'T we want people doing that to get the bonus?
Other ides though -- perhaps specialists by default consume less food (25%? Is 50% too OP?), going with the growth idea. Or finishing a building would give your city a border pop (scales pretty nicely with progress tree)
Other ides though -- perhaps specialists by default consume less food (25%? Is 50% too OP?), going with the growth idea. Or finishing a building would give your city a border pop (scales pretty nicely with progress tree)
Because some people always complain that this is always the superior way to play, and I really don't want to promote that. Options are awesome, removing them is not.
I don't really like the less food consumed thing, there are already too many effects doing that. I don't particularly like the idea of promoting one specific ancient era tree either, from what I've noticed and from what others have told me, civs that pretty much need to go a specific policy-route are less fun than those with options available to them.
That being said just because an effect affects specialists doesn't necessarily mean that tradition is the way to go every time. You could for example do something like "The first specialist worked in each city provides an extra X <Yield>". That would be beneficial for tradition because they get their first specialist up quicker, but it would also be good for progress for example because they are most likely faster to get their first specialist up in all other cities.
If you want something with more meat in it you could have either the yields or the number of specialists affected scale with era. Example:
1. In medieval era "The first specialist worked in each city provides an extra 2X <Yield>.
2. In medieval era "The first 2 specialists worked in each city provides an extra X <Yield>.
On the topic of getting border-growths from buildings, the idea have been up before and it seems a bit too strong to be honest.
Sun Pope
Warlord
If that's the case, we could try promoting the opposite. Make it so it's at least a little more viable to keep a city after capturing it, like Rome does. Although, we should probably save this for another civ thats more combat focused (I'm thinking a (Gran) Colombia civ with Simon Bolivar could make a cool "liberation" civ, but that's for another time)
Hmm, I like the scaling specialist-providing-yields idea. I might actually go with that on top of the pop and worker.
Hmm, I like the scaling specialist-providing-yields idea. I might actually go with that on top of the pop and worker.
So what's left now? The Ziggurat and the Vulture?
Sun Pope
Warlord
Well, we just have to finalise that, as well as name the UA. I've got "Dawn of Man" right now but that's really just a placeholder. Unless you guys like it, I think we should use something else that isn't already a Civ 5 Term. For the UU, I'm pretty set on the Vulture being an "effective against melee" swordsman replacement, but it could also be a spearman that loses the vs mounted bonus if we think that a swordsman would be too OP.
Ziggurat: I reallllly like the mini pantheon bonus, and I'm 98% sure I can get it to work and balance without being complicated.
However, as I realise that some people are suspicious of the feasibility of such a building, I'll go ahead and start making something else for the ziggurat in case that one fails. What are we thinking, temple that provides some sort of scaling bonus, right? Maybe the faith per river tiles? It could be cool if we made it a little similar to Greece's UB (Acropolis or something, I can't remember what it's called) where it gives some sort of boost for destroying military units or, even when you expend great people.
Ziggurat: I reallllly like the mini pantheon bonus, and I'm 98% sure I can get it to work and balance without being complicated.
However, as I realise that some people are suspicious of the feasibility of such a building, I'll go ahead and start making something else for the ziggurat in case that one fails. What are we thinking, temple that provides some sort of scaling bonus, right? Maybe the faith per river tiles? It could be cool if we made it a little similar to Greece's UB (Acropolis or something, I can't remember what it's called) where it gives some sort of boost for destroying military units or, even when you expend great people.
This isn't exactly the best place, I'm just bringing it up for use in future civs, but there really is no melee-unit specialized in taking down cities anymore. If we want a civ with a relatively early powerspike, a swordsman or a spearman that starts with drill and siege would probably be a nice idea.
As for the Vulture (which I'm still not sure is a good name, but whatever) I'm really not sure, there are 3 spearman replacements and 3 swordsman replacement, 1 of the spearman is available one tech earlier than normal. I would probably go with a swordsman replacement, if only because it feels cooler.
So what do we have to build upon? Let's compare the existing swordsmen.
Swordsman:
14 CS
95 hammers (same for all)
Mohawk:
17 CS
no ironcost
33% bonus is forest/jungle
Legion:
18 CS
Cover 1
Krisman:
16 CS
Mystic Blade
and now the suggestion:
Vulture:
15 CS
Available at bronze-working
70 hammers (same as a spearman)
no ironcost
<Unique Promotion>
I'm really not that sold on the idea, I mean first of all I generally think giving up a UB for another full pantheon of your choice would be a bad deal. Especially considering a temple-replacement would come too late to help you get a religion meaning your extra pantheon, which is mostly useful for gathering faith, would be even less useful.
Here's the thing, we really need to make a decision if we want to focus the civ on religion or not. If we don't focus the civ on religion, giving them faith-bonuses around late classical is just weird.
Sun Pope
Warlord
It seems a little OP if the Vulture comes earlier, has no iron cost, has a free promotion AND is cheaper to build than a swordsman. I think we should keep it the same production cost as a swordsman at least, because then you would at least have to decide whther or not you want to make some quick spearmen or a few powerful swordsmen. Of course, you'd still have to consider the spearmans bonuses against mounted units but for the most part a cheaper, stronger, and earlier swordsman just seems really spammable. Unless we want a sort of Zerg rush strategy from the Sumerians.
I don't understand what you mean by giving up the UB. You still have the UB, it still provides it's original yields, and the only difference is you get to choose what bonus it provides in each city. You don't get another Civ-Terminology Pantheon, you basically just pick what that "something else" the building does. For comparison, when you build a Dojo as Japan, it will always have the same extra effect: The Eight Ways of Bushido promotion for new units. In a Ziggurat, once it's done building you pick from a list what you want it to do: new units built here start with drill, +2 tourism, +1 food for each copper, etc etc etc. It's just a way to let you choose what the uniqueness of the Building will actually do. To counter this, each bonus won't be as powerful as those in other UB's but will still benefit you. It's more flexible and canbe better than having a bonus that might not apply to you (Iroquois Longhouse isn't so usefull when you dont have that many forest tiles, the Ottoman Siege workshop might not be that usefull if you don't have any viable neighbors to conquer, etc) This way, you get at least a little use out of each Ziggurat than a really good boost in one or two cities. It doesn't change anything about the religion system in Civ, I just called it a pantheon to make it more relatable. Most of the bonuses I have in mind are not faith related, though a few of them are. (I.E. Reduces religious unrest, gives a percentage of tourism as faith etc) But, if you don't play for a religion, you don't have to pick these, as there will be several flat bonuses and ones that scale with population, etc.
I do see your point on the late-classical faith bonuses being relatively useless and certainly unreliable.
Here was the thought-process.
The unique promotion, which still have not been specified, would be of comparable level with the mohawks promotion, meaning you're giving up 2 CS for 1 tech earlier access and slightly cheaper hammer-costs, worth it? Maybe?
Comparing it to units in the same tier.
Spearman:
70 Hammers.
11 CS
Hoplite:
70 Hammers
13 CS
Discipline
Great Generals II
50% vs mounted
Immortal:
70 Hammers
12 CS
Double Healing
25% CS when defending
50% vs mounted
Pictish Warrior:
70 Hammers
13 CS
Available at mining
25% CS and double movement in hills/tundra/snow
No cost to pillage
Faith from defeated enemies
At the same tech, the Vulture would have +2 CS at the cost of an extra promotion and 50% damage vs mounted compared to hoplite/immortal.
Give a few examples and I might buy it.
Sun Pope
Warlord
Ah, I didn't notice that you put the Vulture at 15 CS, that does make it more balanced. Alright, lets just put it as an earlier swordsman, no iron, and less hammers. Now for the unique upgrade, lets try and come up with something that is both unique and will be useful as the unit gets upgraded. As I said earlier, a bonus VS melee could work, but there's also things like higher CS while defending or a bonus healing when in foreign lands, etc. There's a lot that haven't been used by other Civs, but the trick is finding one that feels Sumerian.
Also, if anyone has a better name for the Vulture please let us know. I kinda hate it.
Here's a list of potential bonuses (we can call them "patron Deity" bonuses for now), and I'll explain a scenario where you would pick them after:
Patron Deity: Bonus
Enlil (God of Storms/Wind): The Ziggurat of Enlil produces +2 faith and all land units trained in this city gain +1 embarked movement and every naval unit trained gains +1 movement
Ki (Goddess of earth): The Ziggurat of Ki produces +2 production and all mines on strategic resources worked by this city produce +2 culture (Stacks with Earth Mother)
Nammu (Goddess of the Sea): The Ziggurat of Nammu provides +15% production on naval units and all fishing boats worked by the city produce +1 food and +1 faith (Stacks with God of the Sea)
Utu (God of the Sun): The Ziggurat of Utu produces +2 Food and Farms worked by this city with two adjacent farms produce 2 extra food as opposed to 1. (So buffs the already used adjacent farm bonus)
An (God of the Heavens): The Ziggurat of An produces +3 culture and reduces Religious Tension by 75% in this city.
Enki (God of Wisdom): The Ziggurat of Enki produces +2 Science and each Science Building in this city gains +1 Faith and +1 Science
So say your capital has a lot of workable fish and/or pearls, etc. So you pick your pantheon to be God of the Sea, giving you +2 faith for each fish and pearls. Then, once you finish building the Ziggurat, the game prompts you to select a patron deity. The obvious choice is Nammu, giving each fish and pearls another 1 faith and food when upgraded. So, your fish now produce +3 faith and +5 food (+6 with a lighthouse). On top of that, you have +15% production for naval units.
No say your second city has a lot of fish too. Unfortunately, you can't select Nammu for your Patron Deity because the capital already has this deity. So you pick Enki as the patron Deity of this city, so you'll at least have something out of it. I'll work on balancing these out so the ones that rely on specific resources are stronger but the ones that don't rely on anything are slightly weaker.
I know it doesn't really make sense with it becoming available at the same time as hoplites and immortals, or later than Jaguars or Pictish warriors, but honestly warrior replacements are just not fun for anyone.
By the way, not really an important question here, I'm just curious and I know nothing of coding, but is it possible to let Sumerian warriors upgrade to 'Vulture's without doing something crazy, like giving them an identical unique warrior replacement?
That's an alternative.
Exactly like the Immortal?
Like the Immortal? and the Kris swordsman?
That always seems to be the hard part, doesn't it?
Seconded.
Seems like a decent concept, some of them might need a bit of thought however.
Wait what? They run out? So your 7th city isn't going to get anything?
