Sumer - CBP Compatable Custom Civs

[Sun Pope]

I know it doesn't really make sense with it becoming available at the same time as hoplites and immortals, or later than Jaguars or Pictish warriors, but honestly warrior replacements are just not fun for anyone.
By the way, not really an important question here, I'm just curious and I know nothing of coding, but is it possible to let Sumerian warriors upgrade to 'Vulture's without doing something crazy, like giving them an identical unique warrior replacement?

Yeah, it's possible and not that hard really. Unless something fundamental was changed by the CBP in how the code decides what upgrades into what, that is.

Exactly like the Immortal?

Like the Immortal? and the Kris swordsman?

That always seems to be the hard part, doesn't it?

Damn, I need to pay more attention to unique spearmen haha

Wait what? They run out? So your 7th city isn't going to get anything?

Yeah, they run out, but I'm planning on having about 30 of them, and making it loop (kinda like the shoshone pathfinder bonuses, after a few the ones youve already picked come back) So you can eventually have to cities with, say Ki, as the Patron god, just not until you pick 5 or so other patrons will it come back to the list. I'm pretty sure I can just steal the pathfinder algorithm for this, but if not it shouldn't be hard to write from scratch.

 

[Funak]

Damn, I need to pay more attention to unique spearmen haha

Don't worry about it, I say stupid things all the time. I mean I was convinced the volley-gun was a lesser version of a gatling-gun, with the same CS and RCS and with the suppressing fire promotion, so I kept using them as front-line fighters. Turns out they are pretty much crossbows, no CS and no suppression fire .

Yeah, they run out, but I'm planning on having about 30 of them, and making it loop (kinda like the shoshone pathfinder bonuses, after a few the ones youve already picked come back) So you can eventually have to cities with, say Ki, as the Patron god, just not until you pick 5 or so other patrons will it come back to the list. I'm pretty sure I can just steal the pathfinder algorithm for this, but if not it shouldn't be hard to write from scratch.

Wouldn't it be better to just have like 7-10 alternatives, and let people pick whichever they favor in every city?

 

[Sun Pope]

Wouldn't it be better to just have like 7-10 alternatives, and let people pick whichever they favor in every city?

Hmm...possibly. It would work mechanically, but maybe we should have the bonus be lesser if it isn't the first time you picked it? Or do you think it would be underpowered that way?

 

[Funak]

Hmm...possibly. It would work mechanically, but maybe we should have the bonus be lesser if it isn't the first time you picked it? Or do you think it would be underpowered that way?

Yeah, not a fan of that actually. I just don't want an earlier un-explored change to screw you over.

 

[Sun Pope]

Yeah, not a fan of that actually. I just don't want an earlier un-explored change to screw you over.

Hmm...I see. I suppose it would suck if you suddenly realise that all of your farms are on top of a bunch of stone/cedar/iron/whatever. Let's say there will be about 20 to pick from, and you can pick them wherever, and if it's the only city worshiping that patron, the Ziggurat gets like +2 faith or something. That way there's a little incentive to pick different ones, but it's neither game-changingly better nor pointless to do so.

 

[Funak]

Hmm...I see. I suppose it would suck if you suddenly realise that all of your farms are on top of a bunch of stone/cedar/iron/whatever. Let's say there will be about 20 to pick from, and you can pick them wherever, and if it's the only city worshiping that patron, the Ziggurat gets like +2 faith or something. That way there's a little incentive to pick different ones, but it's neither game-changingly better nor pointless to do so.

Oh, no I mostly meant that you pick the one boosting ocean-resources in perhaps your capital and then you scout to realize that there is a nearby location with a lot more ocean-resources, but you've already locked yourself out from picking that bonus again.

 

[Sun Pope]

Oh, no I mostly meant that you pick the one boosting ocean-resources in perhaps your capital and then you scout to realize that there is a nearby location with a lot more ocean-resources, but you've already locked yourself out from picking that bonus again.

True, that also would suck

So, any last words to put in before I start programming this more? We can talk balancing the patron gods as I work them out in the xml

 

[Funak]

True, that also would suck

So, any last words to put in before I start programming this more? We can talk balancing the patron gods as I work them out in the xml

No idea really, still not sure I like this whole customizable UB thing, but if you think it'll work, go for it.

 

[Sun Pope]

Alright, sorry for the short absence I've been dealing with university midterm exams.

But I've finally started programming it out and realised I don't have any art at all for this. I can make it all myself, given the time, but it will take a while. If anyone wants to help out, that'd be great, because I especially will have a hard time making the model for the Vulture units. The DoM picture, the map, the Ziggurat image, the Vulture image, and the Civ Symbol shouldn't be too hard for me to do, however.

 

[Funak]

Alright, sorry for the short absence I've been dealing with university midterm exams.

But I've finally started programming it out and realised I don't have any art at all for this. I can make it all myself, given the time, but it will take a while. If anyone wants to help out, that'd be great, because I especially will have a hard time making the model for the Vulture units. The DoM picture, the map, the Ziggurat image, the Vulture image, and the Civ Symbol shouldn't be too hard for me to do, however.

Sorry I have absolutely no clue how to make 3d models, or any other models at all for that matter. I might be able to convince Wodhann to make the images (he is absolutely fantastic at it, and he made half the new art in CBP) if that takes some pressure off you, sorry I can't be of any more help.

 

[Gazebo]

Alright, sorry for the short absence I've been dealing with university midterm exams.

But I've finally started programming it out and realised I don't have any art at all for this. I can make it all myself, given the time, but it will take a while. If anyone wants to help out, that'd be great, because I especially will have a hard time making the model for the Vulture units. The DoM picture, the map, the Ziggurat image, the Vulture image, and the Civ Symbol shouldn't be too hard for me to do, however.

Pillage the 3d art and icons from the wonders of the ancient world scenario.

G

 

[Sun Pope]

Pillage the 3d art and icons from the wonders of the ancient world scenario.

G

Ah yes, I just remembered that you told me earlier about the scenario art. I'll do some digging online, there's bound to be the xml code for the references to the scenario out there somewhere. The CBP requires all DLC anyway, right? So making it so that you must have the Wonders of the Ancient World DLC wouldn't change much really, right?

@Funak: thanks for the help, you've done a lot already just by talking to me about some things and aking me realise how dumb some of them are! Perhaps in the future Wodhann could help out with some civilisations that aren't already in a Scenario!

I'd also like to bring up the UA, specifically the specialists part. Given that Korea gets a flat +2 Scence for every specialist, do you guys think it's a little weak that Sumer only gets +1 (scaling with era) for the first specialist (Scaling with era) in each city? It seems very weak early game and reallllly strong late game, so do you guys think it would be better to have every specialist provide +1 of their yield, and then +1 more for a few specific techs? (Say, writing, education, etc give science specialists another +1s yield, artsy techs give artists +1c, and so forth for each other type of specialist?)

That seems like it would be a bit more balanced throughout the game, giving you +1 for every specialist early on (that's basically +1 or +2 of every yield once you get tradition rolling) and then about +3 or +4 for each specialist late game rather than +8 for the first 8 in each city. I don't know about you guys, but typically my only city working more than 8 specialists is my capital (MAYBE a second city as well) by the information era. So while it may be more or less the same for the capital (depending on how many specialists you work, 8 at +8 compared to 16 at +4) all of your other cities would be getting a huge boost over other civs. Even only working 5 specialists would give you 40 more yields per turn, PER CITY. So at 4 large-ish cities besides the capital working 5 specialists, that's about 200 extra yields each turn. And it only gets better from working more specialists. To me that sounds really unfair, but maybe I'm overestimating how much these numbers actually mean late game.

 

[Gazebo]

Look here: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization V\Assets\DLC\DLC_06\Units


and here

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization V\Assets\DLC\DLC_06\Gameplay

 

[Funak]

I'd also like to bring up the UA, specifically the specialists part. Given that Korea gets a flat +2 Scence for every specialist, do you guys think it's a little weak that Sumer only gets +1 (scaling with era) for the first specialist (Scaling with era) in each city? It seems very weak early game and reallllly strong late game, so do you guys think it would be better to have every specialist provide +1 of their yield, and then +1 more for a few specific techs? (Say, writing, education, etc give science specialists another +1s yield, artsy techs give artists +1c, and so forth for each other type of specialist?)

That seems like it would be a bit more balanced throughout the game, giving you +1 for every specialist early on (that's basically +1 or +2 of every yield once you get tradition rolling) and then about +3 or +4 for each specialist late game rather than +8 for the first 8 in each city. I don't know about you guys, but typically my only city working more than 8 specialists is my capital (MAYBE a second city as well) by the information era. So while it may be more or less the same for the capital (depending on how many specialists you work, 8 at +8 compared to 16 at +4) all of your other cities would be getting a huge boost over other civs. Even only working 5 specialists would give you 40 more yields per turn, PER CITY. So at 4 large-ish cities besides the capital working 5 specialists, that's about 200 extra yields each turn. And it only gets better from working more specialists. To me that sounds really unfair, but maybe I'm overestimating how much these numbers actually mean late game.

I thought the point was to avoid having a bonus that affects all specialists to avoid favoring tradition, personally I really prefer civs to have as many policy-paths open as possible.

Also with how yields work, the suggested us would not really be "really strong" late-game, as a +4 <yield> in every city in industrial is worth less than +1 <yield> in every city in ancient era.


I don't think we ever decided on what yields to provide anyways, I was kinda thinking food, but food recently got weaker and science stronger (at least slightly, and at least early-game) so maybe there's a better way to handle it? You might bump it up to two yields even, not one hundred percent sure how powerful it would be considering you'd have to work at least one specialist in every city to keep the effect up.
Maybe something along the lines of "+1 food and culture in every city working a/(at least one) specialist, scales with era".

 

[Sun Pope]

I thought the point was to avoid having a bonus that affects all specialists to avoid favoring tradition, personally I really prefer civs to have as many policy-paths open as possible.

Also with how yields work, the suggested us would not really be "really strong" late-game, as a +4 <yield> in every city in industrial is worth less than +1 <yield> in every city in ancient era.


I don't think we ever decided on what yields to provide anyways, I was kinda thinking food, but food recently got weaker and science stronger (at least slightly, and at least early-game) so maybe there's a better way to handle it? You might bump it up to two yields even, not one hundred percent sure how powerful it would be considering you'd have to work at least one specialist in every city to keep the effect up.
Maybe something along the lines of "+1 food and culture in every city working a/(at least one) specialist, scales with era".

I like that idea for +1F/C per city working at least one specialist. I think perhaps it should start at +2F/C and go up by one every era, because +1 of each is muchhh weaker than most pantheons and seems slightly insignificant. I'm pretty sure I'll have to use lua to do that, but it shouldn't be too bad.

 

[Funak]

I like that idea for +1F/C per city working at least one specialist. I think perhaps it should start at +2F/C and go up by one every era, because +1 of each is muchhh weaker than most pantheons and seems slightly insignificant. I'm pretty sure I'll have to use lua to do that, but it shouldn't be too bad.

Could work. Honestly no matter how we do it, it will probably end up catastrophically unbalanced, that's just the nature of design, you have no real idea what you're striving for when you work new fields.
Probably the best solution to just get something out, and let people complain about balance and gamefeel once it is out.

I mean I pride myself on being able to judge the outcome of situations pretty well, but having nothing to compare with, all I can do here is give guesstimates.

 

[Sun Pope]

Could work. Honestly no matter how we do it, it will probably end up catastrophically unbalanced, that's just the nature of design, you have no real idea what you're striving for when you work new fields.
Probably the best solution to just get something out, and let people complain about balance and gamefeel once it is out.

Yeah, I've been doing some testing myself on a Dual map vs Babylon. I'm using +1 yield per era, per specialist per era, and it's being kind of a beat down every time. I usually crush Neb in every category I even bother investing any time into, and by the end of the game the only thing he usually has on me is the world congress, whereas I could easily take out his capital starting anytime after Classical. I think it's a bit too strong if I can keep up with Neb's science while also producing mass amounts of money, units, and culture.

I think an early +2 culture would help a lot with ancient era border growth and policy tree acquisitions, while the +2 food would synergise with their early pop strategy. It also means the specialist pretty much pays for itself. The problem with this is the scaling. I think maybe just having the one specialist go up by +2C/F each era would work well, which would give you like +16 Culture and Food in each city by late game. The Culture is slightly significant (mainly helps with reducing boredom and growing borders in cities without many culture buildings) but that food would really help late game growth, especially if you found a new city with the extra pop and worker. Build a specialist building, and make it grow really fast. It's unique I think, because while any civ can start a city late game and get it rolling quickly, Sumer would be able to do it much more effectively and without having to spend much resources on it. It's kind of strong in relation to some civs, but I think It's not too overpowered, especially compared to a late game carnival or Traditional Korea's insane science production.

Also, I will also update on the art situation: I have everything from the Wonders of the Ancient World Scenario EXCEPT a leader Icon, dawn of man leader image, and a Leader scene (talking to the AI). Right now, It's all just Harun from Arabia because that's what the scenario uses for Gilgamesh. I could honestly just use Nebuchadnezzar for all of that, as I myself would prefer it over a still image, but I get the feeling other people wont. So I still have that to stress about

 

[Funak]

I think an early +2 culture would help a lot with ancient era border growth and policy tree acquisitions, while the +2 food would synergise with their early pop strategy. It also means the specialist pretty much pays for itself. The problem with this is the scaling. I think maybe just having the one specialist go up by +2C/F each era would work well, which would give you like +16 Culture and Food in each city by late game. The Culture is slightly significant (mainly helps with reducing boredom and growing borders in cities without many culture buildings) but that food would really help late game growth, especially if you found a new city with the extra pop and worker. Build a specialist building, and make it grow really fast. It's unique I think, because while any civ can start a city late game and get it rolling quickly, Sumer would be able to do it much more effectively and without having to spend much resources on it. It's kind of strong in relation to some civs, but I think It's not too overpowered, especially compared to a late game carnival or Traditional Korea's insane science production.

Might be a bit much, but it does force to you use multiple specialists in each city to get the bonus, could work.

Also, I will also update on the art situation: I have everything from the Wonders of the Ancient World Scenario EXCEPT a leader Icon, dawn of man leader image, and a Leader scene (talking to the AI). Right now, It's all just Harun from Arabia because that's what the scenario uses for Gilgamesh. I could honestly just use Nebuchadnezzar for all of that, as I myself would prefer it over a still image, but I get the feeling other people wont. So I still have that to stress about

Yeah I'm of no help here either

 

[Sun Pope]

Might be a bit much, but it does force to you use multiple specialists in each city to get the bonus, could work.

It actually doesn't require multiple specialists, that's what makes it great. Basically the script would say:

if city is working a specialist ->
+2 * era food in the city
+2 * era culture in the city

 

[Funak]

It actually doesn't require multiple specialists, that's what makes it great. Basically the script would say:

if city is working a specialist ->
+2 * era food in the city
+2 * era culture in the city

That sounds too powerful to me, to be honest.