Superheroes & representation (split from questions thread)

I agree with SM that it seems there is no bonus to such changes by and and large, other than a hypothesised gain from 'having more genders/colors/etc' for some set characters, which by itself does not seem to help in anything (?).

I mean, ok, let's say you are making a film adaptation of Crime and Punishment, and decide to have Raskolnikov be homosexual. Does this actually help in something?
Cause such things seem rather pointless, ill-thought of, and ultimately creating a false issue out of nothing. Surely having some new character who can be whatever you like- for whatever reason- would appear to be more clearly a step to be more inclusive? Cause most people don't change from white to black or from man to woman, IRL ;)

BTW, due to X-post, the post by Gori (which was not what i was replying to, it just happened to appear seconds before my own) was pushed to the previous page, so i am copy/pasting it here:

Well, let's at least make a start on this university degree program in the complexities of "representation."

I'd run a discussion-style class here at CFCU. "Ok, students, draw your desks into a circle.

Here are our guiding questions for the day:

In what sense should a superhero "represent" the society in which the comic representing him/her is produced/consumed?

As a mirror reflects? Marvel has said they're trying better to reflect the diversity of American society.

But how can a superhero, who has to be one race or another, one gender or another, reflect such diversity?

So is it only the whole slate of superheroes who can "represent" American society in this way?

With that definition of represent, should the slate of superheroes pretty accurately reduplicate the population? I.e. 77% white, 50.8% women?

But what if one hero is named America, then what? Are the pressures to properly "represent" even higher in such a case? But still, he's just one guy. Should he be multi-racial? Or are multi-racial people an even smaller minority than people of either of the two races that make up a particular multi-racial identity?

Or does a superhero represent the way a congressperson represents: i.e. stand in for, regardless of the identity of the person doing the representing and the people being represented?

Does a Hispanic youngster need a Hispanic superhero, in order to identify with that superhero? (If "no," then this followup: But if there are none at all in the the line's "universe" how would he or she feel about that?) If Captain America is black, but a black kid thinks Iron Man is a cooler hero, is he at liberty identify more with Tony Stark than Sam Wilson? What will it mean if he does?

Do non-Irish white-guys identify with Steve Rogers more than black guys do? If so, why is skin color a bigger block to identification than nationality-of-ancestors? If not, do we need a range of white guys to reflect the various white-skinned national identities that make up America's diversity?

If the genre calls on you to imaginatively identify with a guy who, when angry turns into a green-skinned giant, is it harder to identify with the white-skinned guy he starts out as?

Discuss."

(We should at least be taking up some of the more interesting questions these moves by Marvel raise, rather than just Anita Sarkeesian: good or bad?)
 
That's what being introduced, a new Captain America. Steve Rogers, the white guy, is out, and Sam Wilson, the black guy (formerly the superhero Falcon) is in.
Why replace Steve Rogers as Captain America - in violation of canon - with a black guy who is already a black superhero and has been for many decades. :confused:

By all means retire Steve Rogers and have a new Cap. But what the hell is the point in doing it by retiring another black character at the same time?

We have two things here: Steve Rogers is a white guy. He's been a white guy for several decades. The character simply is not black. He's not a martian either and people would make a stink if someone suddenly wrote a story in which he was - not because they're racist, but because verisimilitude has been broken and so has people's willing suspension of disbelief, ruined by an in-your-face deus ex machina - like when a character in a popular show suddenly has a sister for the benefit of an alleged 'wider audience' - you just can't do that in a creative medium without people thinking "WTH". (On the other hand look at the introduction of Buffy's younger sister Dawn which went from a "WTH" to a fully explained crucial plot point for the series, gotta admire Joss Whedon.)

What's the other thing? That people dislike the transparently ideological nature of the change.

Why do you want a black Captain America? Ideology. I think that's a poor reason for such a change and bound to get everyone's backs up. Especially given the accompanying subtext of 'you're a bigot if you complain', which is purely obnoxious.

There's a difference between thinking "hey this guy'd make a great Captain America and we've just killed off Steve Rogers so we need a new actor - why not a black guy?" on the one hand and on the other saying "we need more black superheroes, let's change Captain america" on the other.

There's also a big difference between changing Cap from a white guy to a black one and actually going to the trouble of creating a whole new character with a compelling backstory and who is a black guy, one is less narratively lazy, to pick one of your own criticisms.
 
Please explain why this male objectification is perfectly fine and not mentioned, but female objectification is completely immoral, evil and worse than Hitler. And this is all from ONE game series. Just earlier today I watched an advert with a woman fawning over a hunky fireman who inspects her fire alarm. Perfectly fine. Now if a man was admiring a sexy, slender woman? Worse than Satan.

You assume a lot my positions. Who said anything about Hitler or Satan? I think you should calm down a bit. Anyways I will treat your point respectfully and answer it as carefully as I can.

Objectification in isolation, regardless of subject matter, is not really a problem to me. There is excellent narrative utility in the objectification of any individual when telling a story. Same with exploitation, pacifying, "princessation" or whatever power-neutering characteristic you aim for. There is merit in properly executing a good narrative, and certain characters (such as the damsels) have their point in a good story.

The problem is when the media massively favor certain gender stereotypes in imbalanced usage of these narrative techniques.

Similarly, and this example is quite mundane, but I have no issue with my girlfriend wanting to be treated like a princess at times - even if I have issue with the gender role as a cultural maxim. I have no issue with treating her nicely, I have issue with a codifying stereotype that will often serve to suppress. I have no problem paying for a meal, I have a problem being expected to; then I'd simply be her caretaker (implying authority and power) and she'd be submissively receptive to it. Paying for your girl's dinner is supposed to be a personal gift, not a sociopolitical enforcement of gender roles.

And that's the issue, as massive media exposition of certain gender roles present authoritative weight to how we act every day. I know these gender roles are looser today; that the implications of power when paying for dinner aren't as strong anymore; but they're still certainly present. There are several people with behavior-enforcing expectations towards both boys and girls which make many people needlessly unhappy. I mean, I'm not sure how we live in the Patriarchal Hell of Hitler-Satan (which you apparently seem to think I believe), but it's probably possible to make the situation better and make more people happy. I don't get why that is such an issue to you or why you must translate my considerations into rabid anti-Nazism or whatever drugs you think I'm on.

To more indirectly answer your question.

Sometimes I pay for my girlfriend's dinner. Sometimes I objectify my girlfriend when it's appropriate ( :groucho: ). This doesn't legitimize that the vast masses of media representations cater to the political power of a population segment.

To more directly answer your question.

As good and popular as the Metal Gear series are, they're not well representative of the broad media landscape.

And, well, if you're about to mention the certain sort of sexualization of men that are often present in video games/whatever, yes it's also an issue. But it's not as bad due to a number of reasons centering around the roles of these people.

...no, you just didn't answer the question. :confused:

Uh. He did.
 
Although now I think about it. There is one thing I have issue with. Biological gender isn't binary.
 
Hasn't the issue here arisen in response to people complaining about there being non-white superheroes (or superheroes that some people seem to think should be white)? I was under the impression that the discussion was about why complaints about there being non-white superheroes are ridiculous. Presumably you agree that complaining that non-white superheroes exist, is ridiculous. And presumably one doesn't have to be identified as part of the 'PC brigade' to share that opinion. Personally, I wouldn't normally give much attention to whether most superheroes are white, but I'd certainly see the ridiculousness in people complaining that some are not. I think that's why the issue has been raised - "hey, people are complaining that a superhero isn't white! WTH?"

A similar thing to when Lucy Liu was announced as Watson in Elementary. I'd never previously thought "why isn't Watson an Asian-American female?", but that didn't make the complaints about it any less bizarre.
This is basically the problem, yeah. I told Quackers a while back that he was confusing approval for a demand, but that doesn't seem to have sunk in on either him or on Salty Mud, or even on Brennan.
 
Jutes, Angles and Saxons constitute a small fraction of the collective ancestry of the English, so that's not really a valid analogy.
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Why do you want a black Captain America? Ideology.
Allow me to clarify: I don't want a black Captain America. I don't want Captain America, period. Superheroes, as a genre, do not figure highly on my list of wants. As I said, I'm mostly into science fiction and fantasy comics; my sequential periodical of choice is 2000AD, and I'm also a big Hellboy fan. As Camikaze said, I'm merely okay with a black Captain America, and think that objections to a black Captain America are spurious at best, and more likely just outright racist. If Captain America had been replaced by another white character, or had continued on as Steve Rogers, I doubt I'd even have noticed.


Why replace Steve Rogers as Captain America - in violation of canon - with a black guy who is already a black superhero and has been for many decades. :confused:
You've expressed your enthusiasm for generous readings, for giving people of the doubt, so let me give you my theory on this one.

Marvel has always tried to weave a greater degree of substance into its stories than other major superhero publishers (which at this point means DC, but one described a number of rivals). I remember Alan Moore saying something to the effect of Marvel characters like Spider-man and the Hulk being a revelation, because although they were basically two-dimensional, that was a whole dimension more than what the other publishers were offering. In recent years this had meant tentatively introducing to the genre a fourth dimension, which they had previously tended to lack. Superheroes were inexplicably ageless, and not just the heroes but their environment, the non-heroes they interact with. That was fine when you could just keep piling on convoluted increasingly extravagant stories to give the impression of development, but that's a harder sell than it used to be. Particularly, I dare say, to Marvel-readers.

So how do you add development? By letting characters develop. By letting them age, by letting them pass through different phases, by letting them develop more complex and deeper relationships with each other rather than just accumulating nemeses. This is something that the better superhero writers have been trying to do for a while, but it's always been limited by editorial demands that the same recognisable characters stay on the covers. (Take note: the shoes of both Thor and Captain America have previously been filled by different characters, but always on an apparently temporary basis. The biggest change here is not the replacements, but they fact that they seem to be indefinite.) I would speculate that Marvel is finding, as its audience increasingly shifts towards the upper end of the 15-30 scale and beyond it, this isn't making so much commercial sense as it used to, and they're beginning to wonder if a bit of controlled experimentation might be in order. Perhaps it'll turn out to be nothing but a gimmick, but perhaps the audience will respond well to the succession of heroes across generations, rather than their simple reinvention for each generation. Maybe they'll prefer a second-, third-, fourth- generation hero to the fourth iteration of the same guy.

So why Captain America? Because Captain America is a good choice. Three reasons. One, Captain America is a good choice from a commercial perspective. He's both a prominent hero, but also one with a strong association with a team, the Avengers, which offers a range of potential replacements who are well-known to the readers. It allows the change to make the maximum impact within the fandom while being, if executed properly, the least jarring for readers of the series.

Two, Captain America is a good choice from a narrative perspective. Captain America is unique in that time really does march on for him. You can constantly revise the origin story of Peter Parker or Tony Stark to keep them an appropriate age, but Steve Rogers is defined in a big way by his participation in the Second World War. He can't not be a veteran of that conflict. But the war was seventy years ago, there's no credible way that even an enhanced human could have lived all that time and still be in peak physical condition. And Marvel knows this, because they retroactively turned him into an ice cube back in the sixties. So even if you constantly revise the date at which he thawed out, attribute his super-serum with increasingly unlikely life-extending abilities, the weight of time still hangs over him. Uncle Ben always died just a few years before the story you're reading, but Captain America's parents died a while ago, and they're only getting deader. That makes him a natural candidate for a story about ageing, retirement, and the need to hand over to a younger generation.

Three, from the perspective of the genre, Captain America's heroic identity is much more explicitly constructed than others. While the identity of other characters may constitute a genuine alter-ego, an idealised version of that particular individual, the identity of Captain America was constructed to express a more general idea, the American ideal. If you felt sentimental- and I don't, but I can try on the hat for the sake of argument- you could say that Captain America isn't one person, he's three hundred million people, and it just so happens that the guy named Steve Rogers is wearing the outfit at this moment. Iron Man is really just Tony Stark in a robot suit. Cyclops is the idealised self-image of Scott Summers. Thor is Thor, because he's from a planet where dressing like that isn't considered weird. But Captain America is America, or at least one vision of America, and that's open to anyone worthy of the job.

And you might well add a fourth one in there: that Steve Rogers is the sort of guy who would hand his mask to an African-American just to make the point. Marvel's writers have been pretty candid about the fact that the ideal of American nationhood the Captain represents is a progressive and anti-racist one- this was a character who once smacked Hitler in the gob, after all- and it's quite credible that Rogers would decided to choose his successor not simply on the basis of heroic ability, but as an affirmation of the ideals for which the identity of Captain America stood. He gave Hitler a smack in the gob, and now he's giving the American comics-buying public a smack in the gob, because evidently they are in sore need of it.

Spoiler :
Mic-Drop.gif
 
Also the Captain of America has been black for the past six years. That might play into it too.
 
This is basically the problem, yeah. I told Quackers a while back that he was confusing approval for a demand, but that doesn't seem to have sunk in on either him or on Salty Mud, or even on Brennan.

I've been asking you for god knows how many pages now why you are spouting this bile and nonsense but that hasn't sunk in either. Why is everything you are saying even necessary? Who or what will benefit? If I could perhaps understand some of the reasoning behind the crap you're talking instead of "I WANT MORE BLACK PEOPLE BECAUSE I WANT MORE BLACK PEOPLE" I'd take you more seriously.
 
I've been asking you for god knows how many pages now why you are spouting this bile and nonsense but that hasn't sunk in either. Why is everything you are saying even necessary? Who or what will benefit? If I could perhaps understand some of the reasoning behind the crap you're talking instead of "I WANT MORE BLACK PEOPLE BECAUSE I WANT MORE BLACK PEOPLE" I'd take you more seriously.

You need only to learn the immense benefits of increased diversity and cultural representation to see why such alterations should be favored.

Take college campuses for instance.
This short 53 page report helped put together by the $100,000 per year Chief Diversity Officer is most enlightening.
http://diversityframework.wisc.edu/documents/FrameworkforDiversityMay192014_2.pdf

Diversity champions have documented their diversity-themed change journey quite accurately in this brief 200 page report here:
http://diversityframework.wisc.edu/documents/Final_SDU.pdf
 
Objectification
Seems to me to be a derogatory name for something deriving from a subjective value judgement.

When someone looks at a pretty girl, or a buff fella, what they are doing is looking. It takes someone else's negative viewpoint on that simple fact to make it 'objectification'. In other words, it's just a rhetorical device.

I have a problem being expected to; then I'd simply be her caretaker (implying authority and power) and she'd be submissively receptive to it.
Again, that's a subjective judgement. It could just as easily be viewed as her having agency over you.

Along similar lines, one major objection to Anita Sarkeesian's critique on women in computer games is that if the 'damsel in distress' has become a worthless object, mere property of the male protaganist, why is he dying repeatedly in order to rescue her? That doesn't suggest that she is unimportant, quite the reverse - it's the male who is disposable.

Traitorfish said:
I ... think that objections to a black Captain America are spurious at best, and more likely just outright racist.
Well that's clear since you haven't actually responded to the points I made on the reasons people have for objecting. You have labelled a group of people 'racist' and can't be bothered to discuss the matter. I think that's poor form.
 
^I wish i had $100K dollars :\

Have you read through the links? I skimmed the first one, it is just 90% fluff and 10% substance.

Hang on..chief diversity officer would be a perfect job for you :mischief:

EDIT: Gratz on getting 30k (i'm a bit late).
 
Have you read through the links? I skimmed the first one, it is just 90% fluff and 10% substance.

Hang on..chief diversity officer would be a perfect job for you :mischief:

EDIT: Gratz on getting 30k (i'm a bit late).

Yeah it would. Only i would have to do it under a pseudonym, and preferably in a web forum :)
It isn't miles away from my current gig here, but would pay far better.
 
I agree. There's no reason that Dr. Watson can't be an Asian-American woman. Similar shrieking could be heard when Starbuck was announced to be a woman for the Battlestar Galactica reboot; boy, do those people look (even more) stupid now.
Ex-cuuuse me? :huh:

Mind your manners.

I'm one of the people on this forum who is old enough to remember Battlestar Galactica when it was first shown in the '70s. To be specific, I was 15 at the time and had a crush on Dirk Benedict. To me, Starbuck is a wise-cracking, irreverent, charming, intensely loyal and courageous male pilot, and I saw no point whatsoever in changing that in nuBSG.
 
I've been asking you for god knows how many pages now why you are spouting this bile and nonsense but that hasn't sunk in either. Why is everything you are saying even necessary? Who or what will benefit? If I could perhaps understand some of the reasoning behind the crap you're talking instead of "I WANT MORE BLACK PEOPLE BECAUSE I WANT MORE BLACK PEOPLE" I'd take you more seriously.

You're quoting TF essentially saying that he doesn't proactively want 'more black people', but that his argument is simply that he is merely okay with more superheroes being black people. If any part of a discussion on the forums must be necessary, the necessity would lie in arguing against people who are not okay with more superheroes being black, and pointing out how ridiculous it is to not be okay with more superheroes being black. Again, presumably you agree with him that having more black superheroes is not objectionable, and objections to more superheroes being black are strange at best.

To make this more concrete, the question is not whether we should demand Donald Glover be the next Spiderman, but rather whether we should complain if Donald Glover happens to be cast as the next Spiderman.
 
Seems to me to be a derogatory name for something deriving from a subjective value judgement.

When someone looks at a pretty girl, or a buff fella, what they are doing is looking. It takes someone else's negative viewpoint on that simple fact to make it 'objectification'. In other words, it's just a rhetorical device.

I don't find inherent derogatory meaning in objectification. You do.

And if you find there is an issue with the terminology - whatever word you want to use for procedurally making something a masturbation prothesis, use that I guess. Bonus points if you can imply the structural reproduction of this act.

Again, that's a subjective judgement. It could just as easily be viewed as her having agency over you.

Along similar lines, one major objection to Anita Sarkeesian's critique on women in computer games is that if the 'damsel in distress' has become a worthless object, mere property of the male protaganist, why is he dying repeatedly in order to rescue her? That doesn't suggest that she is unimportant, quite the reverse - it's the male who is disposable.

The issue is that it caters to traditional gender roles of the active, tough and rational male and the passive, soft and emotional female, which is a whole can of worms of bad things and structural suppression. For while these are apparent attributes on the surface, thing is that activeness is valued over passiveness, ration over emotion. That you should cleanse yourself of subjective values before thinking objectively; that is considered superior thought. And while I don't agree with that, I guess I can accept a social structure doing that. Just not when it implicitly places half of our population in the inferior pool, making all relationships between daddies and daughters.

Anyways I don't claim objectivity so your use of subjective is ill placed. You're just using it as a rhetorical device, implying certain thoughts (yours) are objective; it doesn't fit well with those thought systems that don't distinguish the two or care about them. For you see, claiming objectivity as superior is symptomatic of claiming rationality as superior, serving to guide and control those poor emotional Others.

Also I do play games. Extra lives are just an arbitrary extension of your hit points. Death is a setback. Game lives are not particularly meaningful as a highlight of the man's disposability; for nothing would happen if the man didn't do anything; the point is that he's perfectly able to try, while apparently the damsel isn't.

Now I'm sure that some few games are counters to this argument, and I don't really have an issue with that. See, I don't really invest my pride in this discussion. I just want people to be happier.

To make this more concrete, the question is not whether we should demand Donald Glover be the next Spiderman, but rather whether we should complain if Donald Glover happens to be cast as the next Spiderman.
OK I admit to first going "NOOOO" at this post, but it's because I misread it as Donald Faison; I don't care about his color, he'd simply be wrong for the role, no matter how much I like him. :p
 
I was one of the "shrieking" BSG fans upset about Starbuck at first, but Katee Sackoff won me over big time fairly quickly by her outstanding performance.

I kind of get why they did it, in hindsight. In the 70s BSG, females were not even allowed to be Viper pilots initially. Yes, this did later change simply because they were running out of pilots and needed replacements, but I don't think that would have flown for a 2000s audience. They had to make some of the pilots female, so I guess why not the #2.
 
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