Support in recent conflicts (poll)

[Loppan Torkel]

I was born in the USSR which consisted of 15 republics. And it was a bitter moment to me as a teenager when the TV showed the ceremony of removing the red flag from the Kremlin. Because it was like my motherland was stolen away from me.

But today I don't mind them being independent states. I also don't mind them being EU members, NATO members, whatever else it is they like to be members of if it makes them happy.

I still look at these countries as at some extension of my country I was born in, and it shall not be offensive, it's not the so much feared "Russian Imperialistic" thing, but rather like having a remote sibling who you grew up together with, and who is now as adult as yourself, has their own family, their own job, their own plans for the future, and you actually don't even talk much to each other. But you still love them and wish that they are happy.

There are many regions in Russia, and they are different, and my sentiment to them (meaning wish to keep them) is different as well. There are some I would release an off-hand way because they cause more trouble than benefit. There are some I would try my best to talk down to stay to find something to mutually satisfy the interests.

In any case, if I was left with just 2 options, either to shoot or to let go, I would let go. Perhaps just to preserve the chance that they may wish to come back one day.

Never supported Chechen war by the way. Neither of them.

Okay, nice to know.

I'm not opposed to a small portion of Ukraine seceding to Russia. It's better than a prolonged or escalating war. Although, The Russian influence in the rest Ukraine would understandably take a hit.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13175621&postcount=2534

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Most of pro-Russian users are refusing to vote so far, for some reason. And Daw didn't vote Russia because he thinks it is an internal Ukrainian conflict. But Crimea joined Russia and separatists in Eastern Ukraine also try to join Russia. So if you suport them and not Maidanists then you should have voted "Russia", Daw.

Why? I made it like this because I wanted to check correlations between supporting X and Y.

Because:

1. Russian Federation and Ukraine are not the sides of the conflict in Ukraine. Or Russia at least is not a primary side. Ukraine is not a side because it is civil war there coming from the previous civil confrontation and there's no legitimate authority continuing from before the confrontation.

2. I don't have time to follow every conflict in the world to have an opinion so I know nothing of what's happening in Palestine this time.

3. The poll suggests I must side one or another in both conflicts.

 

[Daw]

Crimea joined Russia and separatists in Eastern Ukraine also try to join Russia. So if you suport them and not Maidanists then you should have voted "Russia", Daw.

No I shouldn't. It is exactly the point I've been trying to explain ever since I joined the discussion.

You shouldn't confuse Ukrainian separatists (including Crimea) and Russia.

I think it would be more accurate to define the sides as:
- either Kiev vs. Separatists (I would instantly vote for Separatists then because I do believe that people must have right to appoint their government and may fight for that right if they are not given a chance)
- or Official US/UK/EU position vs. Official Russian position (I would instantly vote for Russia then because although the official Russian position is fishy sometimes, the other side is, imo, even worse).

But with positions defined like they are and besides Israel/Palestine thing is mixed in, I find it impossible to take any side.

Although, The Russian influence in the rest Ukraine would understandably take a hit.

Does not look like there's anything left to loose anyway there.

 

[brennan]

The idea of supporting one country over another in stark black-and-white terms is overly simplistic.

I'm in favour of peace and people staying alive.

 

[Daw]

I'm in favour of peace and people staying alive.

Where do I sign that?

 

[brennan]

Apparently not killing each other isn't an option.

 

[Tahuti]

The idea of supporting one country over another in stark black-and-white terms is overly simplistic.

No one really thinks in stark black-and-white terms. If you are from that particular country, or identify with that particular, it is often the safest policy to side with it regardless of how you conditioned to think of it.

 

[kochman]

Apparently not killing each other isn't an option.

Jesus mate, you did it, you solved the conundrum that no one else could solve.

I call on Israel and Hamas/etc to stop killing each other, immediately!

Novel idea.

 

[Tahuti]

I call on Israel and Hamas/etc to stop killing each other, immediately!

Considering Israel will stop killing when Hamas does so as well, it would be way easier to say that just Hamas needs to stop killing.

Of course, not everyone has a programming mind.

Spoiler :

void ArabIsraeliConflict::IsraelHamasConflict(bool* bHamasIsKilling)
{
bool bIsraelIsKilling;

if (!bHamasIsKilling)
bIsraelIsKilling = false;
else
bIsraelIsKilling = true;
}

 

[kochman]

Considering Israel will stop killing when Hamas does so as well, it would be way easier to say that just Hamas needs to stop killing.

Of course, not everyone has a programming mind.

Spoiler :

void ArabIsraeliConflict::IsraelHamasConflict(bool* bHamasIsKilling)
{
bool bIsraelIsKilling;

if (!bHamasIsKilling)
bIsraelIsKilling = false;
else
bIsraelIsKilling = true;
}

Well, at this point, I don't know if I fully believe that.

What ends up happening is the anger over past clashes/occupation/etc ends up being acted out in some ways that eventually escalate. Those ways include Israeli police abuse.

 

[LoneRebel]

As someone else said, supporting Ukraine is a no-brainer.

On Israel vs. Palestine, I chose Israel on the whole, although my support for them is not without reservations. I certainly don't support the killing of civilians. My vote for them was more in order to oppose the people who simply support Palestine and hate Israel no matter what, who see the conflict in black-and-white terms, with Palestine completely white and Israel completely black. Hamas, in case people have forgotten, is an Islamic fundamentalist organization that believes that Israel shouldn't exist.

 

[Traitorfish]

As someone else said, supporting Ukraine is a no-brainer.

I dunno, appointing fascists to ministerial posts is a deal-breaker for a lot of people.

 

[Quackers]

I dunno, appointing fascists to ministerial posts is a deal-breaker for a lot of people.

That's democracy for you.
You cannot make an interim government in times of crisis and exclude one major group because you don't like them. Hell, one day you may even have to sit next to a communist. Repulsive.

Anyway, the Ukraine will have another election soon and all will be sorted.

 

[Akka]

I dunno, appointing fascists to ministerial posts is a deal-breaker for a lot of people.

Yep, you should invade them to show them how ethically superior you are.

 

[brennan]

Jesus mate, you did it, you solved the conundrum that no one else could solve.

I call on Israel and Hamas/etc to stop killing each other, immediately!

Novel idea.

My, how trite.

Is it your contention then that the Palestinians in Gaza will magically stop dying from malnutrition and otherwise treatable diseases if Hamas stop firing rockets and Israel calls a halt to the airstrikes? That their human rights will magically be respected all of a sudden? Or would you care to be more honest about the situation?

 

[kochman]

My, how trite.

Is it your contention then that the Palestinians in Gaza will magically stop dying from malnutrition and otherwise treatable diseases if Hamas stop firing rockets and Israel calls a halt to the airstrikes? That their human rights will magically be respected all of a sudden? Or would you care to be more honest about the situation?

How did your posting a mind-numbingly short sighted post turn into you (incorrectly, may I point to post #90 here) imagining my position? That's really wierd.
I don't like talking to people who do that.

 

[Traitorfish]

That's democracy for you.
You cannot make an interim government in times of crisis and exclude one major group because you don't like them.

That depends on the relative value you ascribe to popularity and credibility.

 

[Tahuti]

Yep, you should invade them to show them how ethically superior you are.

Splitting Ukraine is the only responsible course of action.

 

[kochman]

Splitting Ukraine is the only responsible course of action.

This has been brewing for some time... of course, the only possible way to do that is violence, per Russia.

 

[brennan]

How did your posting a mind-numbingly short sighted post turn into you (incorrectly, may I point to post #90 here) imagining my position? That's really wierd.
I don't like talking to people who do that.

Wow, he describes the idea that people stop killing each other as 'mind-numbingly short sighted' and treats it as deserving of sarcasm. Then bleats about being unfairly misrepresented. Slow hand clap that man.