Swimming With Nuts: Deity Edition

[Rusten]

Until ~200 AD

Spoiler :

Went with the lightbulbing plan. Parthenon+Gl+NE built early. I ended up having the two required GS before I could boost engineering (wasn't able to trade in time).
Still got trebs in the BCs, think it was around 150-125 BC.

Shaka and I had ourselves a cold war in the BCs. Having him so close made it necessary to pre-build units early. I've been trying to keep up with whatever he could throw at me.
Costs were high, but at least I felt secure, and the units will be needed once I have trebs.
AIs without siege are not dangerous.

Spoiler :

]

Attacked 1 AD with the following stack. A bunch of trebs will reinforce, but they were the last unit made so the rest are 1-2 turns behind.
The extra movement on road comes in handy though. Such a big difference.

Spoiler :

Things are pretty standard at this point. I'm great buddy with Sal and Brennus (friendly at this point) and only have to worry about the west.
I played until ~200 AD and Shaka is broken. Tech situation looks fine as I have 2 GS ready to bulb education.

I think I got lucky with the religion spread. Made diplomacy very easy for me.

 

[Gwaja]

@Rusten

Wow... good show! I'd really like to see where it is going.

 

[Pangaea]

Ecko that too. Fantastic game so far, with only five cities too. The religious situation looks pretty similar to my game, but you clearly had a much better approach, and look set to take better advantage of it.

Humbling to see how the truly good players fare

 

[Pangaea]

Almost a millenium later, but I'm ready to attack in 820AD.

Spoiler :

Looks like Shaka is plotting on me again as more troops including a bunch of catas have appeared. But I can't afford to wait just to avoid 'declared on my friend'. Justinian is plotting too, possibly on Shaka/Monty. He was Pleased last turn and I was going to beg this turn, but of course he went down to Cautious in between turns. grrr

Brennus went culture about 200 years ago, so that will be a huge issue. Cities increasing 200 culture per turn. Cow in the east will be gone any moment, as it's losing 2-3 culture per turn. The gold is about to be lost too, as it's down to 51% now. Thankfully there is another nearby, but losing the tile in HE Heliopolis isn't fun either. Hence the desperate Theatre.

Justinian already has Cuirs, and the others only miss MilTrad, so I'm far from confident of a win here. Too many potential issues. Popped the GM this turn, so not great timing for upgrades, but I can now research towards Rifles. Don't think I have much else choice, despite several AIs having PP (but none will trade it, and I don't want to trade away my only tradable tech MilTrad anyway). Have two spare GS, so maybe I ought to spend one of them on PP. Shaka has monopoly on Chemistry, so I hope to get that from him when he caps far down the line (hate when AIs have vassals, but at least better he got Monty than the beast Justinian).

19 Cuirs at the ready. Wish me luck. I'll need it.

Shaka has a bigger stack somewhere, but I didn't see it when scouting so it's possible it's still in the far west, in a former Monty city to prevent revolt.

 

[Rusten]

Quick update 520 AD

Spoiler :

Shaka dead. Monty is next, followed by Isabella I think seeing as Justinian has annoying units (WEs among other things). They're small and weak -- easy pickings.

Will trade for guilds with Sal and upgrade some of the WCs with a lot of experience to knights probably.
WCs really go great with trebs early on. When sieging a city even WCs will have great odds vs defenders and they are so cheap to reinforce and can move around and heal so easily. Not having to attack with my crossbows/pikes allows for them to stay healthy and always be on the move to protect my siege.

 

[yyeah]

In
Hmm this is deity or immortal becouse iam confused ... ?
Saved a map in WB to run it with buffy, but after couple of turns this dosnt looks like IMM :0.

 

[Pangaea]

Doesn't the thread title give it away?

Have played to a little after 1000AD. Tech pace... damn. I've seen light move slower.

Spoiler :

War on Shaka has kind of gone well. He did show up with a 25-unit stack, so mGun changed hands several times, but we got out on top and wiped it. Now it's that excruciatingly annoying time where I either have to cap quickly to do it, or probably 'lose' Shaka to Justinian -- although Justinian has probably barely killed a single Zulu. Looks like he's messing up Monty pretty badly though, so I expect him to cap soon, probably when the first city goes (can't be long now, I know Justy has a huge stack somewhere).

Tried to circumvent it by begging some gold, but for some weird reason Justy said no -- although I've never begged anything from him in ~160 turns.

Meanwhile I've slowly teched towards Cavs/Rifles. The problem is my tech pace is slllloooooowwww, and Justinian techs like nobody's business. He just got Rifling, and with such pace, he's going to be Infantry before I get Rifles. Kind of a tricky match-up

Saladin is close to Rifles too, but as he has SciMeth, I expect he's targetting the free GPs from Physics and Communism. He's waaaay ahead - even well ahead of Justinian. Two beasts.

A few specialists in Ulundi. Plus Mids.

The land with odd (and very awkward for movement) cultural boundaries.

Techs. Justy stupidly far ahead. How can I save this game?

 

[Rusten]

Techs. Justy stupidly far ahead. How can I save this game?

Spoiler :

Being on the same landmass/sharing borders should make it a win even if you're far behind. It will be a time-consuming slog, but the AIs are terrible at fighting. Just survive to infantry+artillery and you can deal with anything the AI has. Add bombers if necessary.
As long as you keep most of Shaka's lands your base area is big enough to win the game.

 

[Lain]

I also think you can do it @Pangaea .

Spoiler :

Shaka has nothing left and you might be quick enough to take Izzy aswell? You could stop making troops and start getting Oxford up in the capital. If you can keep Justi and Saladin happy, you might only have to take out Brennus to prevent him from winning culture. UN victory is on the cards aswell. Careful about the diplo from now on, every -1 could matter later.

 

[Anysense]

Techs. Justy stupidly far ahead. How can I save this game?
[/SPOILER]

Don't worry, I nearly always fall behind like this and still manage to win sometimes.

Decided to try it myself and played till 1 AD.
I rarely go wonderwhoring but could not resist with such perfect conditions. Built Parthenon and MoM in Thebes and GL in Heliopolis. Still have five forests around Heliopolis, in all likelihood I will build Taj Mahal too and have a very long GA sequence.
Don't know what to do with the capital. Perhaps I'll just farm it and give the corn to Heliopolis.

Spoiler :

Shaka is a maniac! He still wants Heliopolis for peace.

Spoiler :

Tech situation seems ok. I already have one GS and hopefully will have another on the next turn. Still no machinery, so with any luck I will double bulb education and bulb lib.

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

Situation looks better now, 1140AD. I'll update properly later.

Spoiler :

Shaka is dead. Justinian was mainly targeting Monty, so I managed to take all of Shaka's stuff. Justinian then had a huuuuge stack, but he healed up a bit and then started upgrading to Rifles and Cavalry (absurd how cheap the AI can do this - a turn after Rifling, and there were a jillion rifles around). Meanwhile, I snuck past his stack sieging Monty's capital, and took two other cities. Hoped to snag the last one too, but Monty had taken down the castle walls and easily overcame the defenders, which resulted in 1-city Monty capping to him.

Glad I got a few cities off Monty, but now there will be horrible culture and revolt pressures in those cities since he's alive.

Isabella has Conquistadors, but I may pay her a visit, as she's the only one I can attack now. For the time being both Saladin and Brennus are Friendly, but only by a hair (+10). Justinian is Pleased, but could fall down to Cautious pretty easily. Don't think Sal or Brennus will trade with him now though, as they have deep-rooted hatred for Monty.

Tech situation doesn't look good, but at least I got Rifling now. The others are burning through the tech tree, and Brennus is pursuing Culture. 10k now, so a way to go, but he hasn't gone full-tilt culture either. Yet.

15 cities gives us a good platform, however, so I hope it's possible to get into half-decent tech gear once all the cities get out of resistance (and get courthouses). The tech rate is unfortunately abysmal compared to the AIs.

Need 5 more universities to build Oxford, but it may indeed be a good idea to prioritise that for when I can turn research back on. Have stone too now

 

[Pangaea]

1250AD, heavy turns, but things look brighter, with a possibly pitch black cloud on the horizon.

Spoiler :

The quite possibly black cloud *gulp*

Brennus and Justinian do hate each other (worst enemies), but they're also on opposite ends of the world. Naturally I'm more than a little worried Justinian has me in his sights, because with an army three times mine...

The rest of the game has gone well, though, no teching aside. Isabella was backwards, only access to Muskets and the odd Conquistador. My army of (upgraded) Cavalry should deal with that. A handful of turns later and she is practically dead, with a lone off-land city left. Not sure what to do with that one. Capping her is probably stupid as it will ruin relations with others (not horribly so, but I can forget about Friendly). It would get me some much-needed techs, though. I'd actually prefer to get that last city and wipe her, but first I need boats, and I've got nothing. But that would erase her culture, which would be good for big cities like Madrid and Barcelona. There is also a 27 shrine in Sevilla.

Tech situation isn't good at all. Saladin soon at UN, and Justinian at Infantry. Brennus is going Culture (not full tilt yet), but isn't too shabby tech-wise either.

Demographics don't look brilliant, but from the Victory screen I'm not too far behind Justinian in population, so I'm trying to restrict whipping a bit, so I can become the opponent when Saladin builds the UN. Would be much better if Justinian did it, but that's not happening as he's way behind on that path. Brennus will hopefully vote for me, but doubt that is enough.

That said, if Justinian declares on me, there isn't exactly much I can do to stop him. That's one hell of a stack he's got, there are heaps more in his lands, and production capacity is through the roof with levees, and soon enough worse with factories+power+infantry (he has cannons too). Nasty.

Of course I could quite easily get him to pleased, but the bad news is that I tried to beg from him not long ago, prior to the Isabella war, which failed, and it's way too soon to try again.

Working on getting up Oxford, and can start on it when Ulundi gets up the 6th university.

Hoped to get a third GS for bulbing, but it was a low chance GArtist instead Does mean I can launch a golden age, but that means I can't double-bulb SciMeth or something else more useful. Maybe still best to go for the GA though, when the cities get out of revolt.

I've attached the latest save game, so please check it out if you want. Wouldn't mind more advice

 

[Fippy]

Isa as vassal is a big chance, no doubt for me

Everybody but Brennus likes her (where you have friendly in return), so it's actually improving relations.
And she can help you catching up a bit, also should have Corporation (not showing as can research).

I always look at Relis in their last cities, and she has x-tian there.
If she switches that would make Justi friendly towards her.

 

[Pangaea]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

The concern is that I can forget about friendly relations and thus trade -- but maybe I won't get more chances to trade with these guys anyway. How does shared diplo affect UN votes though? Would for instance Brennus still vote for me in a UN bid, or would he be Cautious and therefore not vote for me? Also, given that Brennus would probably be Cautious shared between me and Izzy, he could declare war.

However, the biggest issue right now is what Justinian is up to, and if he is plotting on me, it's a mighty tough situation to somehow get out of alive. After sleeping on it, maybe the best option is indeed to cap Isabella, get some techs from her, change to Nationhood and draft some rifles. Limited how many I can draft due to happiness and low ownership in new cities, but it will at least help if he declares on me. Can only cross my fingers it's on Brennus, but after all I'm technically weak compared with Justinian, and we're sharing borders everywhere now.

Maybe I should just gift him Toledo? It's surrounded by Byzantine culture anyway, is size 1, and although it won't be liberation bonus, it may tip him up to Pleased (currently only +1 fair trade bonus).

Whatever happens next, the breakout has gone well, and we do stand a chance of scoring a win somewhere (far) down the line

Izzy going Christian would help, but guess she won't do that on her own. I can change for five turns, but given the big diplo loss with the Islamic block, those 5 turns could be dangerous if Justinian is up to no good.

 

[Lain]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

I would cap Isa and gift Toledo back to her. Her culture will block off Justi somewhat. Also kind of useful in case he does attack you.

UN votes are not affected by vassals. So if Brennus is friendly towards you but furious towards your vassal, he will still vote for you. However, he might indeed attack you so that's a concern. Should be a priority to spread Islam to Isa and convert her to that.

It's certainly a messy situation. I do think you can take out Justi here though. Sure, he will have Infantry. Won't be pretty. But Cavalry do fine against them. And you have more cities than him (3 of his are on islands so won't contribute a lot), so you should be able to whip/draft an adequate army. Steel isn't far away. You'd need 10-15 turns now. Not sure you will get them. It's not like you will fight tanks so it's not too bad. Committing to that right now should give you a better chance than hoping for the rather unrealistic scenario of Justi marching all the way towards Brennus. And even if he does, why not backstab Justi then? Fighting at (barely) tech parity is the best you could hope for from now on.

The idea would be: Take out Justi before Brennus wins culture. You will have a shot at the UN victory.

Started recording this map myself. Will see how it goes.

 

[Pangaea]

@Lain

Spoiler :

Thanks for the advice. Had gone back to the game and did cap her, so here's hoping it was a wise choice. Also noticed I could form a Defensive Pact with Saladin, so did that. Bumped Brennus down to Pleased, so I also went with Nationhood-Caste-Theocracy and have started drafting some Rifles (he's still pleased). Unfortunately I think Justinian must be plotting on me. And this sight doesn't bode well. I assume if he had Brennus in mind, a good bunch of those units would have started to move to the east by now, instead of still being parked in the far west.

Thought about giving Toledo back to Isabella as well, and perhaps it's the best move. Think it might give me problems with culture as her culture will go all over the place near Barcelona, but perhaps still worth it as Justinian may assault that one instead. If he goes north, that part of the map is lost, but that's not a huge concern.

Vassals are hopeless at helping out in wars, but maybe Saladin will still do something. Particularly if Brennus backstabs me.

As you say, a very messy situation. Probably about to get worse when Justinian's mega-stack of cannons-rifles-cavalry assaults us.

As he's plotting war, I can only assume he's teching AL, getting him Infantry any moment (as usual the AI will auto-upgrade everything for a bag of chips and two nickels). Fighting at tech parity should be doable, but against infantry it's very hard.

If it's possible to deal with Justinian on the defense, a longer term option is actually to swap to Christianity and try to quell Saladin+Brennus instead. They should be weaker, and the frontlines would be much more manageable.

But for now I need to start setting up defensive perimeters in Nongoma (to the right in the above picture) and Barcelona. Then cross my fingers Justinian gives me more time to prepare...

 

[Pangaea]

No action yet. 1350AD. I'm getting a little trigger happy. But would prefer to get attacked so the Def. Pact remains in place.

Spoiler :

Famous last words... Actually getting a little fed up waiting around. Our stacks keep growing, and he keeps plotting. Saladin has Artillery, so I kinda just hope Justinian will declare already.

I've got two stacks. The one in the SW could get mauled, but hopefully it can still do some damage.

The one further east is basically a pile of drafted rifles. With some cannons it could do some damage, at least as long as Justinian doesn't get infantry. He probably will soon, Brennus has them (and also paratroopers). However, if I were to get enough cannons, even infantries can be dealt with (if with heavy losses).

Basically I expect him to attack the north-west first, where I can't do anything. I'm not sure where he will hit after that, but I suppose the south-west is more natural than the north-east, even if the border over there is even closer to his culture. With railroads he can move from one side of the empire to the other in 1-2 turns though.

Can of course easily move the cavalry to the other front, or even a pile of rifles to the SW if he gives me another ~4 turns. Don't really want to give up the shrine and 4 former Spanish cities though, and can't exactly leave the heartland lightly defended either, so I've made two stacks instead.

Sure would be nice if I could still trade with Brennus, he doesn't have Steel or DivRight yet, but our trading days are over now :|

As you can probably see from the pictures above, despite some 60 rifles+cavalry, I only have half the power of Justinian. But almost 1:1 with Brennus (he hasn't mass upgraded rifles to infantry yet). All of them are in Free Speech now btw, but it's too expensive to get them out of it (600-ish gold). After all, I need to get some teching done now (Oxford done), to get Infantry in the near-ish future. Long way up there for now, but the next techs need to be Steam Power and Assembly Line.

One more turn...

Spoiler :

Justinian invades our borders..

MOVING EAST!!

Don't know if the AI can change targets or if he was plotting on Brennus all along, but whatever happened, Brennus is about to get a very nasty and very numerous surprise.

Naturally, I'm thinking this is a perfect opportunity to deal with that nasty stack, before he can upgrade them to Infantry (I have to assume he is moving towards AL, as AIs plotting war tend to research war techs). Need more cannons to deal with him, but this could be shaping up quite nicely

You just gotta love drafting.

15 turns (and one upgraded super attacker).

 

[Anysense]

Does someone keep playing this map? My attempt is going a bit better than Pangaea's (I capped Monty and Justy too) but I cant seem make myself finish it. Looks like I don't have patience for standard size maps anymore, probably should try small ones.

 

[Pangaea]

I'm still at it, after being busy with work for a few days. Long way to go, but Justinian has a few less units.

Spoiler :

55 guys - not a bad lot! Brennus managed to pack some guys into the city in the 1 turn it took Justinian to wipe away cultural defence, including a MG. Most are Cavalry though, pretty useless defenders.

Doesn't show below, but from what I could gather, Justy lost 12 guys, including 5 of the 6 cannons.

In the blue corner... we have a few lads as well

*poof* stack-be-gone

There will be trouble on other fronts though. The former Monty cities will be lost (2), Toledo will go (Isabella's), but hopefully we can hold the fort in the south-west. Just hope Justinian doesn't put all his remaining strength against the former Spanish cities.

As can be seen from the last picture, the economy got a harsh hit - much harder than I thought. Went from +211 to -50-ish at 0%. TRs hurt a lot, and we also lost many resources, because Justinian cut us off from the Spanish enclave. Didn't think about that. Oops.

Prior to the attack I had about 0.55 power of Justinian, and now it's 0.75. Probably better in military terms because I'm so far behind in techs. But then he can 1-turn cavalry just about everywhere it seems, so won't take long for him to amass another big stack. With some luck, he won't get infantry in no time, and I can actually do some proper damage once healed up. If I'm able to cap him, tech problems are gone, and the game is basically won. Just need to deal with Brennus before he wins culture.

 

[Pangaea]

Oh dear, almost

Spoiler :

Have killed four big stacks of Justinian's and taken two cities. Very close to capping him. But upon starting the game today, I see he has access to Tanks and Marines. Infantry is rough, but can be dealt with. Tanks+Marines??

Hope I still have a big enough stack to take his capital or something, that should do it I would think, but given he has such superior units, this may not work, and I'm not as sure about being able to cap him any more. Tanks can get City Raider too, so counters will be ugly.

Need to heal for a turn or two, but think I have little choice but to continue. If we peace out he'll just attack again in 10 turns, and it's not like Brennus or Saladin are soft targets either.

Edit: Actually, since Monty is his vassal, suppose Justinian won't cap for an eternity. Hmmm. Rough.