Sword of Islam: Domination thread

[AnotherPacifist]

Seljuks are almost as easy as the Abbasids...as long as you give away the 2 far eastern cities and concentrate on science and wealth creation. I stuck with 7 cities for the majority of game until the Mongols showed up in force. Captured Iraq BEFORE the Mongols show up to preserve the infrastructure (twice captured cities have fewer buildings than once captured). Then Constantinople and Ottomans (who eventually respawned but only with 4 cities, thankfully). Ak Koyunlu was easily dealt with. Mamluks I wanted to vassalize but they collapsed, so I needed 29% of land in the end.

Just to show that getting all 4 titles (as in our current SG) is more than possible.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Armenia is a little tougher since it's got essentially no techs to start with. Aimed primarily for crucible steel, guilds and rapid expansion towards Lesser Armenia. Guilds was able to get some good techs from everybody (including the Buyids who successfully defended themselves against the Seljuks and Mongols and were still alive in 1250, thanks to guilds). In order of elimination: Georgia, Rum, Byzantines (surprise attack on Constantinople while they were still at war with the Ottomans), Ottomans (vassalized), Zengids (vassalized but mainly razed their cities so that Ak Koyunlu doesn't spawn anywhere close to me--and spawned with Mahabad instead), Ak Koyunlu (vassalized but died when Safavids showed up), Mamluks (vassalized briefly but collapsed), Yemen (vassalized).

Numerous horse archers located outside cities were key to recapture rebelling cities the same turn (just move out the defenders from the turn before).

 

[MessageMan]

As soon as these were available, I used Empire, Religious Law, Free Labor, Agrarianism and Organized Religion. Free labor and agrarianism are an excellent combo!

Why Agrarianism? Farms over cottages?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

There's no city that's worth the cottages, since if you have big enough cities you can always just hire some merchants.
SoI is a production and culture-based mod, there's really no need for cottages, except maybe somewhere in India where grassland is more prevalent.
The first thing I do in Egypt is build farms over cottages. If it's a hamlet, I let it be, but as soon as the plague hits, I convert them to farms.

(This might not be true for Caliph where you need all the science you can get)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Ayyubids was fairly simple, if one prepares for the Mamluks correctly (i.e. since you're anticipating a revolt, you might as well starve all your Egyptian cities by drafting and employing as many specialists as possible, so that when they get the cities they are unhappy and small). Vassalizing the Mamluks by leaving them with 1 city makes a future revolt impossible. Also, the Mansa Musa event is just a distraction, since your economy can withstand almost anything by building wealth.

Had 26.6% of land and won the next turn since the Safavids appeared (25% needed).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I'm starting to think that any civ that spawns close to (i.e. not in India or Afghanistan) and before the Ottomans is easy. As long as you can vassalize the Ottomans and have Constantinople safely in your hands, it's only a matter of time before you win.

Safavids and Ak Koyunlu are probably quite hard due to the fact that the Ottomans are entrenched when you spawn.

India civs are probably really hard for domination.

 

[Jusos2108]

Why Agrarianism? Farms over cottages?

By any means running Agrarianism doesn't prevent you from building cottages. The cottage growth bonus from Free Labor cancels out the penalty from Agrarianism anyways.

Safavids and Ak Koyunlu are probably quite hard due to the fact that the Ottomans are entrenched when you spawn.

India civs are probably really hard for domination.

Yes, this is the way I see it as well.

 

[J. pride]

How many empires can acheive domination just by extending to their historical areas? (except the Abbasids)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Ottomans can do it, if only one can count the vast areas not included in the map and extend their Persian holdings a little.
The Timurids can definitely do it, but I think it'll probably collapse if it extends beyond Persia and Georgia.
It would be really nice if one can raise the 25% to 30% but not count any land that cannot be colonized (e.g. the vast majority of the Arabian and Saharan deserts and the mountains in the east.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Just as a quick estimate, how much land does India encompass in terms of %?

I remember that I was solid by the end of the 3rd UHV for Ajmer, and had on hand some several dozens of war elephants and similar number of horse archers. I suppose one can take 30 years to trek to Anatolia, declare war on every civ on my way and capture 3 Anatolian cities including Constantinople, and then capture the rest of the land closer to home (like the rest of Afghanistan, Timurid lands and even Persia).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Why Agrarianism? Farms over cottages?

I take it back--there are certain civs like Ajmer that really should build cottages--Gwalior and Delhi, in particular, can certainly use cottages since they have plenty of rivered grasslands. Since science is so important for early civs, to be able to research the gold-producing techs (including cash cropping and cheque system), one really needs Gwalior to be cottaged.
By the time I got Multan, I had agrarianism already, so I didn't need to cottage it.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, finally did it. The hard part is NOT getting the big 10% empire that is northern India--it's almost easy to get the science once you get Al Azhar and Spiral Minaret (just conquer some cities with those religions or don't spread Hinduism and Shia will probably spread to you by sea).

Neither was getting Constantinople the hard part--I started my journey in the mid 1200's with a stack of 40 (got delayed by the Mongols, so I had to take the desert route instead), and fairly easily vassalized Ottomans.

THE HARD PART IS NOT TO HAVE CIVS RESPAWN! I have not realized how easy it is on the western side where civs are not allowed to respawn (e.g. KoJ, Byzantines, Abbasids) after later civs respawn. Well, if you're Roman Emperor, and you can't collapse, what happens when you hit shaky? Civs respawn! Even though I was killing the Timurids, I couldn't keep their lands due to instability (just one more city made me unstable).

The only solution is to save up great people for a golden age (when civs cannot respawn), and expand your territory rapidly towards the end. I went from 22% to 27% then. Founded all kinds of tiny cities in the middle of nowhere (ever heard of Surab? Maymana? Bhingar? Akola? Fahraj? Rafsanjan? Turbat? Khorugh? "CITY NAME MISSING"? "City"??

See how big the Ottoman empire is? I had to basically give back all my conquests except for Constantinople (to keep the Roman Emperor title, I think). 27% of land was what was needed towards the end. One more turn and either Delhi Sultanate, the Gujarats or Malwa would have respawned.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Obviously, let the Fatimids stew in their semi-stability until after 1250, then go all out and collapse them but make sure you're stable. Cairo is as far as I went, which allowed a Mamluk spawn at the rest of the Upper Egypt cities, and I vassalized them and liberated most of Makuria to them.
Getting a little late to the Ottomans means that it was much harder to vassalize them, but I did it after killing many marksmen in Izmir.
Georgia, Ak Koyunlu and Safavids were the other vassals.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Very nice UP but sucky location for domination. I almost didn't make it to Constantinople and 3 cities (took me a little while to get the 3rd Anatolian city, which meant I was close to collapsing for about 5 turns).
Mashbad is the perfect location for Heroic Epic--don't want to build one in Samarkand (since it'll flip to Timurids), and Mashbad is the exit point for troops going towards the west. Thankfully the Seljuks didn't found it and I did it with my 3rd settler.
After the Mongols are repulsed, all out for Iraq, Baghdad had my Royal Mint and a settled great general.
Timurids are fairly easy to prepare for--just starve Bukhara, Samarkand, Khojend, wait for their heavy lancers and heavy horse archers to come in small groups (and destroyed outside cities by my promoted heavy horse archers).
Very interesting in that Zengids spontaneously vassalized (and are still alive and well after helping me vassalize Ak Koyunlu), Mamluks are conquering former Georgia, and I just vassalized Karaman when I won. Ghorids are solid.
The Zengids conquered Kermanshah, which is the reason I didn't get my 2/3 UHV.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, here's a summary of techniques--all centered around Constantinople:

If you're close to Constantinople (i.e. anybody west of and including Seljuks)--just get tech and <=10 cities, defend against Mongols if necessary, and conquer Constantinople around 1300, then vassalize Ottomans. Then expand like mad, turn culture dial to max, found cities after you've hit Mongol Invasions era (to get size 4 cities with infrastructure).

If you're east of Seljuks, build stack of 20+ units, trek towards Constantinople around 1200 (or 1260--after the Mongols have settled in instead of attacking you), and conquer Constantinople/vassalize Ottomans. If you're in India, you're in for potential respawns, so it's best to vassalize your coreligionists and expand towards Ghaznavid/Seljuk lands which are not up for respawns.

I still haven't a clue what to do with Oman.

It would be really nice to be able to build a wonder that allows unlimited land expansion regardless of stability.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Almost as hard (or easy) as Ajmer, except that you get many more techs to start. Big stack to the west after Mongols, made Iraq very prosperous. Byzantines were powerful but as soon as Constantinople falls, they collapse. Ottomans won't vassalize, so Karaman took its place.
Ajmer is excellent as a voluntary vassal and provided a lot of trade and techs.
Dwarka was very productive with Kizil Kule and I built my Royal Archives there.
Surat had Grand Bazaar and Royal Mint.
Had to deal with a 3 city revolt from Delhi Sultanate (while I was STABLE) but that was easily put down.
First game that I did with domination that still has a KoJ alive (partly because of me since I kept giving them cities) and one that didn't have Ak Koyunlu as a vassal.

 

[Jusos2108]

As AP has shown us, with the Roman Emperor title domination victory is a walk in the park and not a real challenge. I think that there should be something that would make domination victory more difficult than it currently is. Like that when your stability around -50, your cities declare independence at a more frequent pace. Alternatively the title should somehow be nerfed, but can't really see how, since the Ottomans need it to be good, so that they can conquer the required lands quickly.. Any other ideas?

 

[embryodead]

As AP has shown us, with the Roman Emperor title domination victory is a walk in the park and not a real challenge. I think that there should be something that would make domination victory more difficult than it currently is. Like that when your stability around -50, your cities declare independence at a more frequent pace. Alternatively the title should somehow be nerfed, but can't really see how, since the Ottomans need it to be good, so that they can conquer the required lands quickly.. Any other ideas?

I was thinking about something like +5 stability per province in Thrace & Anatolia (still: as long as Constantinople is under control). That would amount to about +60 stability max. which is enough to keep Byzantines/Rum/Ottomans going, but would effectively prevent the weird Indian-Roman emperor scenarios where a player captures just Constantinople. More frequent rebellions with very low stability is also something that should be in, but it won't fix the problem I think, unless it's overdone to the point of frustration.

p.s. have you seen my question about astronomy save?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I wouldn't call it a walk in the park. It's definitely not JUST Constantinople.
You have to bypass Mongols, capture key cities en route, and diplomatically pit the Byzantines against whoever is warring against them (either to OB with Byzantines or their enemies) to get close to Constantinople, and THEN you have to vassalize the Ottomans (or Rum) to ensure you can keep your Anatolian conquests.
More frequent rebellions would just mean that I would keep more horse archers everywhere else, and reload the turn before to recapture them.
What about making a new wonder that allows you not to collapse, only available with a late tech? As I pointed out before, right now the Topkapi Palace is USELESS--use that for collapsibility.
How would you not have Byzantines collapse early if you take away the Roman Emperor power?
It took me 4 days to finish the Gujarat game, you know.
I was actually thinking of doing a Byzantine conquest game, but before that, I'm going to try the Samanids for domination.

BTW, you do realize that other than cultural victory and UHV, it'll be close to impossible to win if you don't have the power of the Roman Emperor? (unless you include religious victory in the future)

 

[embryodead]

I wouldn't call it a walk in the park. It's definitely not JUST Constantinople.
You have to bypass Mongols, capture key cities en route, and diplomatically pit the Byzantines against whoever is warring against them (either to OB with Byzantines or their enemies) to get close to Constantinople, and THEN you have to vassalize the Ottomans (or Rum) to ensure you can keep your Anatolian conquests.
More frequent rebellions would just mean that I would keep more horse archers everywhere else, and reload the turn before to recapture them.
What about making a new wonder that allows you not to collapse, only available with a late tech? As I pointed out before, right now the Topkapi Palace is USELESS--use that for collapsibility.
How would you not have Byzantines collapse early if you take away the Roman Emperor power?
It took me 4 days to finish the Gujarat game, you know.
I was actually thinking of doing a Byzantine conquest game, but before that, I'm going to try the Samanids for domination.

BTW, you do realize that other than cultural victory and UHV, it'll be close to impossible to win if you don't have the power of the Roman Emperor? (unless you include religious victory in the future)

We're not talking about taking the effect away completely, just making it more balanced. My solution would give Byzantines from +30 to +40 stability, which I think is enough to keep them from collapsing early.

Some points:

- looking at this thread, Domination games do seem weird... maybe it's not too easy but it's weird to see that any empire can just capture Constantinople to keep its overextended Empire in India or Persia from collapsing
- the title can be powerful, but I'd really like to somehow limit it to Thrace/Anatolia/Syria etc.
- I like your idea for Topkapi palace; I already moved it to an earlier tech BTW, but I'm not fond of its current effect either. Making the owner immune to collapse sounds overpowered, but some kind of big stability bonus would make it a cool wonder (something along the lines of -50% stability penalty for expansion).
- making Empire civic more powerful is also an option; it's not that good currently and most people (including myself) seem to go for Aristocracy even with big empires.