Taking Cities in Civ 4

MikeEdward

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 30, 2005
Messages
46
I'm having a great deal of trouble taking cities in Civ 4.

Back in Civ 3, it was easy. I would build up an army of Swordsman, gain numerical advantage and surprise, and attack.

But now, I'm turned back almost every time. Human wave tactics don't work.

People, what am I missing?
 
You need diffeerent variety of units. Bring swords, axes, CATAPULTS, and anything with the promotion of City raider, and cover
 
Waht do you have? What do they have? Its all relevant.
 
Underdawg said:
^^^^^ You mean relative? :p
Both, really. It all matters, and none of it is absolute.

</pedant> :king:
 
Cats and swords are are what I use. Sometimes the occasional horsearcher. Cats that have the ability reduce city defense work well. Wail on them with the cats till defense is 0 and then storm the city.
 
Sorry, posted the forst time and got carried away.
Anyway what troops are you going against? Even if they have archers they can be formidable. Can you give a breakdown of what you have to take the city and what they have.
I promise I will keep on this time.

Fixin' for tha grama'
 
Here is an approximate estimation of the number of troops required to storm a city for different cases.

Bronze Army:
vs. Archers on 0-defense flatland city: Expect about a 3:5 losses. Bring half again as many troops as defenders.
vs. Archers in a fortified city (40%+ defense): Expect about 1:1 losses, attack with twice as many.
vs. Archers in a city on a hill: Expect 2:1 losses, attack with 3 times as many troops.
vs. Archers in a fortified city on a hill: 3:1 losses, attack with 4 times as many or don't even bother.

Iron Army: You stand better chances overall.

With catapults: You can eliminate the defensive bonus, provided sufficient patience. Sacrificing 2-3 catapults per city will saturate the defenders (cats deal no more collateral after 50%), and will reduce the losses among your elite city-raiders to about 10%. Cheap, mass-produced catapults are better to suicide than city-raider3 swordsmen.

In general, when faced with impossible odds (15% chance of win), but superior numbers, attack with your rookie troops first. They don't have a much different chance of survival than your elites, will generally damage the enemy, and are replaceble. 23exp troops are not replaceable. Once your cannon-fodder has done its work, your elite troops will face softened opponents and can build up their precious experience with little risk of death. Rookies that survive the first wave, are now veterans as well, so there is even more celebration. Yay!!!

In such a manner, you will conquer, and do so with no greater losses than are required.

I'm serious about the catapult saturation though, especially in the medieval era, when macemen cost 70 and catapults still cost just 40. Very economical. Catapults become like ammunition.
 
Hans - great breakdown.

Lesson to me: attack with iron army, bring lots of cats, send rookie troops first. Got it. Will try it and report back.
 
I think Hans got it pretty much right there. :) Maybe you know this already, but you can use the ALT key to check what the odds of winning are versus a certain other unit. Sacrificing high experienced units to crack open the first defender is not always a bad thing in my opinion, for example if you play an aggressive civ (cheap barracks + first +10% strength upgrade) you will almost start with veteran units. (eg: lose 2 normal swordsmen or just 1 experienced one to crack open a city)

Something else you should consider is that behind that archer-packed city might be another city, with far less defense. Just leave the other one be for now, and go around. Better to leave some units in the forests near the first city, just in case they try something funny.

Another thing is when they are ahead in army-like techs. You should consider not too fight at all, if they already own longbowmen instead of archers. For early warfare, axemen can do a fine job taking cities too. (consider taking the +25% archery instead of city raider I +20%, if playing aggressive civ)

Check which units are close to upgrading, and make sure they win. They heal after upgrading so they can give an extra punch next round which can just give you that edge you need :) Also always build more then you think you need ;)

Certainly consider catapults if you got the tech already, especially if there are some real bad odds like <2%. They can take down the walls too, if you think time is on your side (or a ton of catapults) you might want to do this as well.
 
One thing I would add... don't cut it too fine. When you decide to attack, you really want to carve them down in one turn. Specifically, you want to kill as many of the wounded as you can. If you do not have enough units to "cycle" through their defenders twice (first time to wound or kill every unit, second time to kill the wounded), then you should think twice. Otherwise you might simply be promoting their units and making harder for the next time. I always try to have a unit with Medic 1 in my stack and won't attack with it unless the odds are very high. This way, if the defender stack survives past a couple of rounds, I will be healing my units and can keep the pressure on. Nothing worse than grinding away only to get behind the curve and have to give up (and then watch all the defenders promote and heal). No half way measures when attacking!
 
ElJoepo said:
Sacrificing high experienced units to crack open the first defender is not always a bad thing in my opinion, for example if you play an aggressive civ (cheap barracks + first +10% strength upgrade) you will almost start with veteran units. (eg: lose 2 normal swordsmen or just 1 experienced one to crack open a city)
Yeah, I forgot about that exception. When you are face with a situation where regular troops have a 31% chance of success, but Elite troops have a 68% chance, you should use the elites. Generally this will be because you were facing an especially strong defender, and you want it taken care of as cleanly as possible. Even if you lose your elite, a regular should get promoted up.

ElJoepo said:
Check which units are close to upgrading, and make sure they win. They heal after upgrading so they can give an extra punch next round which can just give you that edge you need :) Also always build more then you think you need ;)

Yes, another good tactic. Making your "on the edge" troops do the winning will earn you another promotion, which will make your troops stronger sooner, as well as cutting your healing time in half, so you won't lose too much pace in your assault.

Kalleyao said:
I prefer stack of doom.
Stack of doom is not a tactic!!! SOD is what happens when you already have military supremacy, and your opponent has no artillery. If you are referring to marching overwhelming numbers of troops against an enemy city...then that's called "assaulting".

The-Hawk said:
One thing I would add... don't cut it too fine. When you decide to attack, you really want to carve them down in one turn. Specifically, you want to kill as many of the wounded as you can. If you do not have enough units to "cycle" through their defenders twice (first time to wound or kill every unit, second time to kill the wounded), then you should think twice. Otherwise you might simply be promoting their units and making harder for the next time. I always try to have a unit with Medic 1 in my stack and won't attack with it unless the odds are very high. This way, if the defender stack survives past a couple of rounds, I will be healing my units and can keep the pressure on. Nothing worse than grinding away only to get behind the curve and have to give up (and then watch all the defenders promote and heal). No half way measures when attacking!

And that's basicly where I got my statistics from for how many troops you should bring on the assault. Whenever you attack a city, make sure that you concentrate all of your attacking into a single turn, and make sure that you win. Never fight a battle unless you are going to win it (or will profit in some less direct way).

Always attack with superior numbers, in situations that are most advantageous for you, and avoid fighting in disadvantageous positions with a limited number of troops.

To illustrate the "superior numbers" advantage, let's take a look at a sample battle here, of 2 Axemen vs. 3 Axemen, all of equal strength:

Axe-A1 vs. Axe-B1 --> Axe-A1 wins at 40% health
Axe-A2 vs. Axe-B2 --> Axe-B2 wins at 20% health
At this point, it's been an even trade, but then the second-wave comes in.
Axe-A1 vs. Axe-B3 --> Axe-B3 wins at 85% health

And thus, numerical superiority turned what at first looks like a 1-for-1 battle, into a 2-for-1 victory. The principle is that the first wave of units softens up the defenders, and then the second wave cleans up. To be properly safe, one should generally bring to battle twice as many troops as the enemy fields. In cases where the defender is significantly stronger than you, it may in fact require 2 or more waves of "softening up" before they fall.

So, when you assault, bring enough troops to cover your losses, and bring enough troops to win. If you can't field 2v1, you can't win the war (but still might not lose it). But just remember: Every battle that you win means less troops for your opponent, so your ratio will get steaadily better, even if you started off at a disadvantage.
 
Got ths idea from a forum thread a while back. When you first start the invasion of a civ, use catapults to take away the first city's defenses. Then, soften them up with some more catapults. Use your attackers to eliminate every defender *except* the last one. Wait for reinforcements to fill the city. The will be unfortified and have no cultural defense. (Clearly this is best in a city not on a hill.) Repeat a couple times until no or few defenders come to help the poor city. This will make your steamrolling through the rest of the empire a bit easier.

This isn't a tactic you can apply on your first (axeman) rush, but I find it particularly useful when landing an invasion party on a new continent. And it goes without saying that the best place to stand while you pull this off is on a forested hill with the city you're attacking between you and the rest of the enemy empire.
 
Compromise said:
Got ths idea from a forum thread a while back. When you first start the invasion of a civ, use catapults to take away the first city's defenses. Then, soften them up with some more catapults. Use your attackers to eliminate every defender *except* the last one. Wait for reinforcements to fill the city. The will be unfortified and have no cultural defense. (Clearly this is best in a city not on a hill.) Repeat a couple times until no or few defenders come to help the poor city. This will make your steamrolling through the rest of the empire a bit easier.

This isn't a tactic you can apply on your first (axeman) rush, but I find it particularly useful when landing an invasion party on a new continent. And it goes without saying that the best place to stand while you pull this off is on a forested hill with the city you're attacking between you and the rest of the enemy empire.


Sounds interesting, get all of the tought fighting done as soon as possible and as easily as possible. Bring a medic.
 
Hans Lemurson said:
Yeah, I forgot about that exception. When you are face with a situation where regular troops have a 31% chance of success, but Elite troops have a 68% chance, you should use the elites. Generally this will be because you were facing an especially strong defender, and you want it taken care of as cleanly as possible. Even if you lose your elite, a regular should get promoted up.

But in this case, it seems to me to be better just to throw an extra catapult or two at them... experienced units (especially with City Raider promotions) pay such big dividends out later... it's hard to quantify, but a City Raider III Swordsman/Axeman/Maceman you can upgrade to a Grenadier/Rifleman/Infantry is worth more than the 35-70 hammers you put into him, and much more than the 40 hammers to glue a catapult together.
 
Hans Lemurson said:
Stack of doom is not a tactic!!! SOD is what happens when you already have military supremacy, and your opponent has no artillery. If you are referring to marching overwhelming numbers of troops against an enemy city...then that's called "assaulting".
I mean when AI also have a bunch of units. It's best to send all of your strongest units against one city, raze it and move to the next etc. Example stack of doom of Praetorians.
 
armstrong said:
But in this case, it seems to me to be better just to throw an extra catapult or two at them... experienced units (especially with City Raider promotions) pay such big dividends out later... it's hard to quantify, but a City Raider III Swordsman/Axeman/Maceman you can upgrade to a Grenadier/Rifleman/Infantry is worth more than the 35-70 hammers you put into him, and much more than the 40 hammers to glue a catapult together.

The problem then, is how do you balance the need to save up and plan for the future, with the need to spend and exploit opportunities in the present. No easy solution there.
 
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