Team Game #2 - OCC Conquest only

[dutchfire]

Oracle: The priest GPP is nasty. In my test games, I usually went for Aesthetics with Oracle, since it is on the road to the Great Library. I would say that Caste System is not very impressive right now, since we can run 2 scientists with a library anyway and do not have much more excess food/population/happiness at the moment anyway.

In my low-level practice games, I found a second worker useful. Especially in the chopping phase that we are reaching now. I would say that a workers is definitely better than a barracks. Worker should be pretty fast at size 4 with several good tiles at our disposal.

 

[Imploding]

Okay, want to play some more Imploding?

I'm traveling on holiday tomorrow so I Can't . You? Dutchfire?

Why?

It's something with the AI "cheats". They know that a player have started the wonder so they are less likely to start producing it. Dont qoute me on the mechanics but I picked it up from one of the SGOTM games.

Guess it's something similar when you see their "we have our reasons" for not accepting a trade. Or the fact that you can also calculate on how much hammers a AI city have into production and how it changes from turn to turn. With bonus resources and different traits you can be fairly certain what they are producing. I usually don't go that far.. Just spotting for big productions if there is a certain wonder I want.

Oracle: The priest GPP is nasty. In my test games, I usually went for Aesthetics with Oracle, since it is on the road to the Great Library. I would say that Caste System is not very impressive right now, since we can run 2 scientists with a library anyway and do not have much more excess food/population/happiness at the moment anyway.

In my low-level practice games, I found a second worker useful. Especially in the chopping phase that we are reaching now. I would say that a workers is definitely better than a barracks. Worker should be pretty fast at size 4 with several good tiles at our disposal.

Good point on the library/food shortage. Maybe that solves all the problems on faster GP.
I'm not to committed on going for the oracle but I usually don't mind a settled priest or 2 when I play OCC.

I definitely like the 2nd worker @size 4.

Good thing we don't have to decide everything now.

Proposing next turn-set: 10-15 ich turns.:

Build order: Warrior (s) -> worker @ size 4 -> Barracks/warrior (s) - Start the mids
Worker 1: Improve farm -> double cows -> Road to stone -> quarry
Worker 2: Go for gold? - then help finish quarry
Research: TW -> Masonry -> pottary (?) - Writing (?)

 

[Fippy]

Okay, played a bit.
Good start, combat luck on t1

Spoiler :

Stayed in place cos of Archer marks around. Built only new warriors until size 4 now.
At some point i used lake over gold mine for 1t, 17F missing and pasture done in 2t..with 3+6+6 would have been only 15F.
Questionable, but we not really needed the gold mines production.

Spoiler :

Barb Archer showed close, i had a backup warri in place and accepted that challenge..

Spoiler :

.. this time we won

At size 4 i checked worker options, cows again needed 2 more turns so 13+13+16+16 = 58 pfff..

Spoiler :

Instead i completed our warrior, taking some overflow into worker and will be 4t now, same time.

Spoiler :

Worked lake until cows done, extra hammer not needed.

On T38 we are in this posi now:

Spoiler :

Wish we had masonry in 2t already (for build after worker), but oh well
SH was built, and our warris are in a circle for now (had no better ideas).

 

[dutchfire]

What do we always tell the beginners? Turn resource bubbles on in your screenshots!
That's clam to the west? It should be in our borders at 5000 culture, right? Nice +2 health.
Border pop soon will give us some more info about what is in the north.

Edit: Worker plan
Move 1SE, road southern cow (2 turns)
Move onto stone (1turn), move warrior there 1t early to check for barbs
Road stone (2turn)
--> Border pop
Quarry

New Worker: road the grassland farm (2t), then help quarry.

How does overflow with workers actually work? Is there only hammer overflow or also food overflow. If not, and since the hammer overflow does not go into the Pyramids, we could work the empty gold instead of the corn and still complete worker in 2.

May I suggest putting hammers into a workboat instead of another warrior after the worker? Workboats are better to explore, open up trade routes and are good fog busters.

 

[Tonny]

Wish we had masonry in 2t already (for build after worker), but oh well

You could delay the worker 1 turn by working the lake instead of 1 cow. Then you could immediately start on the pyramids with some overflow.
When you finish the worker in 2 turns you will have the workers idle for 1 turn waiting for the border pop.
Calculations here:

Worker 1
t38 move to southern cow and start road
t39 building road and finishing
t40 move to stone
t41 building road
t42 building road and finishing
t43 border pop and worker can start building quarry (6 turns)

Option 1
Worker 2 (working both cows)
t38 35/60 + 16
t39 51/60 + 16
t40 ready, move to farm and start road
t41 building road and finishing
t42 move to stone and wait for border pop (road already finished by worker 1)
t43 border pop and worker can start building quarry (6 turns) (3t now, 2 workers quarrying)

Option 2
Worker 2 (working cow + lake)
t38 35/60 + 12
t39 47/60 + 12
t40 59/60 + 16 (working both cows again)
t41 15/500 +16 + 12 pyramids (masonry teched), worker ready, move to farm and start road
t42 building road and finishing
t43 move to stone and start building quarry (3t when ready)

Work in progress...

 

[Tonny]

Calculations up to turn 82 considering option 2 worker build...

t41 worker ready, pyramids next. Masonry teched, BW next.
t43 border pop.
t45 quarry ready.
t46 worker 1 goes to grassland 1W of lake, worker 2 goes to northern gold.
t47 Madrid size 5 working wheat, 2 cows, 1 gold and 1 farm. Worker 1 starts farming, worker 2 starts mining
t50 Goldmine ready.
t51 Farm 2 ready, Worker 2 walks on forest 1N of lake.
t52 BW teched, Pottery next. Worker 1 walks on forest 1NW of lake. Worker 2 starts chopping.
t53 Madrid size 6 working wheat, 2 cows, 1 gold and 2 farms.
t54 Worker 2 chops for 20H (becomes 40H for pyramids).
t55 Worker 1 chops for 20H (becomes 40H for pyramids). Worker 2 starts farm. Madrid switches 1 farm for lake.
t56 Worker 1 starts farm.
t57 Pottery teched, Writing next.
t59 Madrid size 7 working wheat, 2 cows, 2 gold, 2 farms. Worker 2 finishes farm 3. Madrid is now at maximum size due to health.
t60 pyramids ready, granary next. Worker 1 finishes farm 4. From now on we need to get a road to wheat for health. This is worker micro not calculated yet.
t63 Madrid switches 1 farm for lake.
t64 Granary ready with 19/34 food in bin, library next. Writing teched, Sailing next (lighthouse).
t68 Madrid size 8 working wheat, 2 cows, 2 gold, 3 farms. Food bin 16/36 and surplus 5.
t70 Library ready, lighthouse next. Sailing teched, Mathematics next (aqueduct + hanging gardens).
t71 Civic switch to Representation.
t73 Madrid size 9 working wheat, 2 cows, 2 gold, 4 farms. Madrid is now at maximum size due to health. Food bin 18/40 and surplus 6.
t75 Lighthouse ready, barracks next. Madrid switches 1 farm for lake.
t77 Madrid size 10 working wheat, lake, 2 cows, 2 gold, 3 farms and 1 scientist. Food bin 22/42 and surplus 3.
t79 Barracks ready, next is warrior.
t80 Warrior (3xp) ready, next is warrior.
t81 Warrior (3xp) ready, next is warrior. First GP. Either Engineer or Scientist.
t82 Warrior (3xp) ready, next is aqueduct. Mathematics teched, next is...

We need to switch to Representation before reaching size 9 (Maximum size without angry citizens is size 8).
From turn 60 onwards worker actions have to be calculated.
After turn 75 we can also go for a workboat instead of barracks and warriors. But with my calculations here everything fits in perfectly with city builds and teching.

 

[Fippy]

wow, will read tomo Tonny but you get likes today already for that

 

[Fippy]

Option 2 looks nice, who will be up next for playing?

 

[dutchfire]

I will be away for the next couple of days, so I can't play.

 

[Fish Man]

Option 2 looks nice, who will be up next for playing?

I’ll do it

 

[Tonny]

I’ll do it

Any progress?

 

[Fish Man]

Any progress?

About to start; finished my last final. Sorry for delay.

Edit: will post about 6pm pst.

 

[Fish Man]

OK, played until turn 73.

The good:
0. Won two barb fights, 90% and 85%. A bit too close for my liking but wouldn't have been the end of the world if we lost one.
1. Got mids on turn 64, double-chopped because no replaying turns so I was paranoid someone would get it before me.
2. Teched BW and got copper. A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.
3. Hatty plotting.....dow on Cathy! From my scouting neither of them have enough troops to really do anything so it's just gonna be a lot of pointless back and forth. Slowing the top AI down is always good.
4. Massive production = time to 5-turn a granary then library. We probably won't even need slavery for this game...
5. Teched math and, lo and behold, nobody had yet. If we hurry we can cash on some trades, especially alpha...

The bad:
0. Meh food means if we work all our power tiles we're stuck growing extremely slowly.
1. Some turns between mids and math meant I had to waste time building 3 questionable things. Walls to protecc in case of plot, axeman for same thing, workboat to explore. Is costing me money but at least I'll probably need the WB for the fish in less than 20 turns.

Anyways, looks like we're in a good position. What will we use the GE for? I'm actually thinking settle - 3h6b is not insignificant, and it can start paying dividends right away instead of sitting away collecting dust for an eternity. OR save for an outrageously expensive wonder we don't have resource for...like Taj? That's a long while though.

GLib and aesthetics route after alpha, I'm thinking. The standard techs like currency and CoL are (mostly) useless in this case.

PS - changed the name of the leader to an ill-fated South American president who tried to take on a group of larger nations and paid the price, for thematic appropriateness. Let's hope we're not so unlucky...

 

[Tonny]

About to start; finished my last final. Sorry for delay.

Don't be sorry. RL goes before Civ . Hope you did your finals well.

Now about the game. That was quite a long turnset.
You skipped Sailing for the benefit of getting Math sooner and getting an earlier start on Alpha. Great choice! We can get Sailing in a trade anyway.
So... how many turns do we need to put in Alpha to get it in a trade? 2, 3, 4 or even 5?

Resources:
We can trade gold for fish with brennus.
I'd rather not trade any resources with cathy and hatty right now.
After finishing Hanging Gardens we can trade away stone. Hopefully for marble if anyone is up for it.

Some quick calculations for the future turns. Not taking into account the gold deficit due to unit upkeep (2gpt). So research and builds can be one or two turns later.
Assuming we need 3 turns of teching Alphabet.
t76 switch to Aesthetics. Madrid size 8 (bin 19/36) working wheat, 2 cows, 2 gold, copper, 2 farms. Food surplus is 4.
t77 Aqueduct ready, next is Hanging Gardens.
t81 civic switch to Representation (and Slavery?).
t82 Madrid size 9 (bin 21/38) working wheat, 2 cows, 2 gold, copper, 3 farms. Food surplus is 5. We need to make another farm.
t85 Madrid size 10 (bin 36/40) working wheat, 2 cows, 2 gold, copper, 3 farms and lake. Food surplus is 5. Hanging Gardens ready, next is Lighthouse (Sailing in trade needed).
t86 Madrid size 11 (bin 21/42) working wheat, 2 cows, 2 gold, copper, 3 farms and 2 scientists. Food surplus is 1.
t87 First GP. Assuming a Great Engineer. Will settle this one.
t88 Lighthouse ready. No overflow. Switching to research. (I don't believe that Parthenon and Shwedagon Paya are worthwile builds.) 1 farm is switched to lake.
t89 Aesthetics ready, next is Literature (Polytheism in trade needed).
t93 Literature ready, next is Drama (Theatre and Globe). Starting on The Great Library.
t97 Second GP. Assuming a Great Scientist. I'll let this one build an Academy.
t99 Drama ready, next is Music (free Great Artist for a Golden Age).
t107 Madrid size 12. Only possible if we get a religion or a happy resource.
t108 Music ready, next is...
t109 Great Library ready without any chops and Marble.

In summary.
We need to get Alphabet, Sailing and Polytheism in trade.
IW can come later.
Possible other trades are Meditation, Priesthood and maybe Calendar if one researches it quickly.

I know someone could say that we should build the Shwedagon for the Religious civics and that we have gold for the dps. I like to hear your thoughts.
I choose research for a few turns to get an earlier start on the Great Library.

 

[Fippy]

Yep this set was a bit long, and we should slow down now cos there's still plenty room for discussion.

Oracle has not been built yet, and those AIs we see techs from have no priesthood..
i would suggest we forget about Alpha for now, has little benefit anyways, and trade maths for Poly + Sailing (or Poly + Med).
Then we could tech PH quickly and try a late Oracle.

We can pre-chop forests and only use them for Oracle if still available & we can build it in 1t so low chance of wasted hammers
I believe we can do that by using our Rep switch Anarchy after chopping 2 forests, and while in Anarchy we chop another 2.

Next turn i would switch copper for farm (2t growth), and hire 2 scientists (-food mode) at size 8 until GP out.
Should not take long, and we still have a chance for an early Academy this way.

We should delete 2 warriors (gold cost), no more barbs and they are not needed.

 

[dutchfire]

With Representation, we still have some room to grow, in terms of happiness. In that sense, aquaduct is good. Hanging Gardens is a good wonder for OCC. The health is good, it has engineer GPP and with stone the wonder is cheap.



Going for the Aquaduct+HG means that we have plenty to build for the next few turns, making the Oracle less attractive.

Research-wise, the goals are either Oracle or The Great Library.

I don't think we should road so many forests, since roads forbid chop+regrow. Chopping in the second ring in places that can regrow might be best ATM.

The scouting workboat should not explore to far, borders are going to pop 18 turns from now and then we want the fish.

 

[Tonny]

I agree with @Fippy that we should delete 2 warriors.

Let's assume we are going for the Oracle. I calculated that we need 2 BFC chops and 2 outside BFC.

t74 Both workers road the forest they are standing on right now. Moving onto the 2 BFC forests takes a turn anyway and this way we can synchronize the worker moves.

Worker 1:
t75 moves S and SW and starts chopping forest 1.
t77 moves SW onto forest 3.
t78 starts chopping.
t80 finishes chopping forest 3 (24).
t81 walks back to forest 1 and finishes chopping (30).

Worker 2:
t75 moves S and S and starts chopping forest 2.
t77 moves S onto forest 4.
t78 starts chopping.
t80 finishes chopping forest 4 (24).
t81 walks back to forest 2 and finishes chopping (30).

Total is 108.
Somehow we need to find 42 to finish the Oracle.

This is how:
t73 Madrid 27/34 starts on Aqueduct 0/100 working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms giving +4 and 22 (7 overflow + 15).
t74 31/34 and 22/100. +4 and 15.
t75 Madrid size 8 18/36 working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, 1 farm and 2 scientists giving -1 and 15. Aqueduct 37/100.
t76 17/36 and 52/100.
t77 16/36 and 67/100.

On t78 Either Great Scientist or Great Engineer is born.

Option 1: Great Scientist for an Academy.
t78 15/36 and 82/100. Madrid is working wheat , 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms and 1 plains forest 12 giving +3 and 17.
t79 18/36 and 99/100. Madrid is working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, copper, 1 grassland forest 21 and 1 plains forest 12 giving +1 and 22.
t80 19/36 and Aqueduct finished with 21 overflow. We're halfway there.
It's time for anarchy for the Rep switch.
t81 Madrid still at 19/36 and 108+21=129 ready for the Oracle. Now working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, copper, 1 farm and 1 plains forest giving +2 and 21.
t82 21/36 and Oracle finished!

Option 2: Great Engineer settled (3 added to base production and 3base).
If we do nothing else compared to option 1 we would get 20 towards the Aqueduct. Not good!
What are our options?
a. Delay settling for one turn (3 + 3base "lost")
b. Settle and stop working 1 cow and hire 1 scientist (3 + 3 "lost" and 3 base+ 6 production "gained")
c. Settle and stop working 1 gold and hire 1 scientist (3 + 4base "lost" and 6 production "gained")
d. Settle and stop working wheat and plains forest and hire 2 scientists (3 + 5 "lost" and 6base + 12 production "gained")

I will only consider option a. for now. All of them are equally possible and up for debate.
2a:
t78 15/36 and 82/100. Madrid is working wheat , 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms and 1 plains forest 12 giving +3 and 17.
t79 18/36 and 99/100. Settling Great Engineer now. Madrid is working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms and copper giving +4 and 22.
t80 22/36 and Aqueduct finished with 21 overflow.
It's time for anarchy for the Rep switch.
t81 Madrid still at 22/36 and 108+21=129 ready for the Oracle. Still working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms and copper giving +4 and 22.
t82 26/36 and Oracle finished!

For all of this to work we need Polytheism and/or Meditation in a trade.
At the moment we can trade Math for Sailing and Polytheism with Sury. Priesthood will then be teched on t76. Plenty of research time.

Should the Oracle gambit fail while we are in anarchy we can use the already chopped for the Hanging Gardens and leave the BFC forests pre-chopped.

In short:
I think we should try the Oracle route and research Aesthetics and Literature after Priesthood. At worst we only lose 3 turns of research towards Aesthetics.

One question though. When we switch civics, is Slavery needed?

 

[Fish Man]

I agree with @Fippy that we should delete 2 warriors.

Let's assume we are going for the Oracle. I calculated that we need 2 BFC chops and 2 outside BFC.

t74 Both workers road the forest they are standing on right now. Moving onto the 2 BFC forests takes a turn anyway and this way we can synchronize the worker moves.

Worker 1:
t75 moves S and SW and starts chopping forest 1.
t77 moves SW onto forest 3.
t78 starts chopping.
t80 finishes chopping forest 3 (24).
t81 walks back to forest 1 and finishes chopping (30).

Worker 2:
t75 moves S and S and starts chopping forest 2.
t77 moves S onto forest 4.
t78 starts chopping.
t80 finishes chopping forest 4 (24).
t81 walks back to forest 2 and finishes chopping (30).

Total is 108.
Somehow we need to find 42 to finish the Oracle.

This is how:
t73 Madrid 27/34 starts on Aqueduct 0/100 working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms giving +4 and 22 (7 overflow + 15).
t74 31/34 and 22/100. +4 and 15.
t75 Madrid size 8 18/36 working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, 1 farm and 2 scientists giving -1 and 15. Aqueduct 37/100.
t76 17/36 and 52/100.
t77 16/36 and 67/100.

On t78 Either Great Scientist or Great Engineer is born.

Option 1: Great Scientist for an Academy.
t78 15/36 and 82/100. Madrid is working wheat , 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms and 1 plains forest 12 giving +3 and 17.
t79 18/36 and 99/100. Madrid is working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, copper, 1 grassland forest 21 and 1 plains forest 12 giving +1 and 22.
t80 19/36 and Aqueduct finished with 21 overflow. We're halfway there.
It's time for anarchy for the Rep switch.
t81 Madrid still at 19/36 and 108+21=129 ready for the Oracle. Now working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, copper, 1 farm and 1 plains forest giving +2 and 21.
t82 21/36 and Oracle finished!

Option 2: Great Engineer settled (3 added to base production and 3base).
If we do nothing else compared to option 1 we would get 20 towards the Aqueduct. Not good!
What are our options?
a. Delay settling for one turn (3 + 3base "lost")
b. Settle and stop working 1 cow and hire 1 scientist (3 + 3 "lost" and 3 base+ 6 production "gained")
c. Settle and stop working 1 gold and hire 1 scientist (3 + 4base "lost" and 6 production "gained")
d. Settle and stop working wheat and plains forest and hire 2 scientists (3 + 5 "lost" and 6base + 12 production "gained")

I will only consider option a. for now. All of them are equally possible and up for debate.
2a:
t78 15/36 and 82/100. Madrid is working wheat , 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms and 1 plains forest 12 giving +3 and 17.
t79 18/36 and 99/100. Settling Great Engineer now. Madrid is working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms and copper giving +4 and 22.
t80 22/36 and Aqueduct finished with 21 overflow.
It's time for anarchy for the Rep switch.
t81 Madrid still at 22/36 and 108+21=129 ready for the Oracle. Still working wheat, 2 gold, 2 cows, 2 farms and copper giving +4 and 22.
t82 26/36 and Oracle finished!

For all of this to work we need Polytheism and/or Meditation in a trade.
At the moment we can trade Math for Sailing and Polytheism with Sury. Priesthood will then be teched on t76. Plenty of research time.

Should the Oracle gambit fail while we are in anarchy we can use the already chopped for the Hanging Gardens and leave the BFC forests pre-chopped.

In short:
I think we should try the Oracle route and research Aesthetics and Literature after Priesthood. At worst we only lose 3 turns of research towards Aesthetics.

One question though. When we switch civics, is Slavery needed?

Is there any drawback to slavery? Etc. 1gpt higher maintenance? If not then just switch in case we need it later.

What will we Oracle? CoL sounds good but so does MC which enables a forge and colossus (maybe for failgold or to get a measly +3 extra commerce).

 

[dutchfire]

Just to clarify our thought process:
What exactly is the point of building the Oracle?

Free tech: which one? I see the Oracle as limited in value unless it actually helps us towards any of our larger goals. Say, Oracle->Literature to get the Great Library. (Or Oracle->Civil Service to get bureaucracy, but that might be mad)
If the goal is to get the Great Library quicker, chopping all our forests for the Oracle is not such a great idea.

It gives +2GPP, but of the wrong kind. In that sense, Hanging Gardens is clearly better and it is not clear if the Oracle is actually helping us.

 

[Fippy]

Hmm i guess CoL would be a good step towards CS,
not huge but helps getting there a bit faster after Literature?

Probably no right or wrong there (MC for forge i would say nope thou),
just depends on what we like trying.
Chopping into Glib also not really tempting without marble or 50% from Bur,
ideally we would get CS before such chops but..no idea

I cannot see us ever using Slavery here,
and i think Civic costs can show up at some point so probably skip that switch.