Tearing Up the Tech Tree - Science Strategies for Deity Play In the .217 Patch

[Martin Alvito]

@ Rittmeyer:

Build order depends on who I'm playing as and the desired win condition. If I'm Arabia, I'm going for Currency immediately and I'm going to rush a Bazaar. After that (or if I'm not playing Arabia), I'll go straight for Education if I'm playing Science/Diplo and the situation in the capital is good, or Metal Casting if production is poor. If I'm going for a Cultural win, I want Metal Casting for GE points.

The Settler means another Library to buy. That could pay off if you have found enough civs to get full value for the luxury and one of the following obtains:

- You are settling a 3+ luxury city and you're settling something that can be Mined.
- There are 4+ Cultural allies on the board, and you're going to be able to afford them.
- A nearby AI will settle all of the multi luxury sites if you go NC first.

Finding El Dorado first also could change things, but in that situation I think that you buy a Settler, go Collective Rule and ditch the Patronage gambit in favor of going for Secularism with the fourth policy. Early Maritimes are very, very good in an El Dorado game, and Culturals get worse.

 

[RedRover57]

I've been messing around with the OCC Arabia strategy on Deity (which I don't really play so that is a challenge in itself) and it seems to me that you do need for the planets to align correctly for it to go smoothly. For example, in a current game I had a few things that threw a bit of a curve ball:

1. Decent start site, fairly isolated with a long unbroken chain of mountains separating me from most of the other civs. Only Askia up north but he pretty quickly started to spam down my way. My capitol site had 4 cotton and 1 spices within 3 tiles, and 1 marble at 4 tiles away. I will need to be careful and maybe buy up tiles to get the marble sooner so that it doesn't tempt Askia to put a city near it. The 4 cotton is probably not ideal as it will be tough to sell it all, particularly after the bazaar. So that may be glitch #1.
2. I didn't hit a cultural ruin (glitch #2) so I built a monument after the scout and put my first 250 gold toward friending a cultural CS on turn 14. Unfortunately the CS was hostile (glitch #3) so my friend status only lasted 7 turns for 250 gold. However, I was still able to pick up Citizenship on turn 22 with this strategy.
3. I had settled my city on top of one of the cotton so I could sell it off right when I got Calendar, but for some reason none of the AI civs had cash when I hooked up my second cotton (glitch #4) so I had to settle for 9 gpt plus 17. So even on Diety sometimes the AI is broke. This will obviously put off my alliance with another cultural civ. In addition, at least one of the AI already has cotton, which will mean even more cotton that I won't be able to get rid of later.
4. Having to pay 250 to friend the hostile cultural civ early meant that I had to produce the library rather than rush buy, which put off the NC (glitch #5). After getting Meritocracy I saved and tried the GE, wait for Phil then GL for free tech strategy, but the AI built the GL 4 turns before I got Phil, so I had to reload and pick the GS from Meritocracy instead (you warned about that but I gave it a shot). Probably would have worked if I had been able to rush buy the library then finish the NC before Phil was done. Not a big deal though as picking the GS instead is fine.

So all in all an interesting and fun strategy but some luck to start with regard to ruins, close cultural civ (not hostile) and better luxury placement around the capitol (instead of 4 of one type) would definitely help. Can't always expect perfect conditions though. Thanks for posting these strategies.

 

[Rittmeyer]

Wow, I had to come here and say I won a turn 208 diplo win on Deity/Small using the first strategy in the OP.

I know that must not be impressive in terms of a record, but it is for me. First because I still have a lot of trouble winning in Deity (even though I can't lose in IMM or lower). Second because, even when I win, it's usually after turn 250.

I had some tries before this game that went bad. But what I can say is that when this strategy works, it really works!

PS: I played as the United States, so no top tier Civ.

 

[gtsecc]

What tree/policies do you pursue after Scholasticism?
My RA's are costing me an extra 100 (250 plus 100) from everyone.
Why? Is it worth it to take them anyway, or should I use the cash to keep cultural allies for the research bonus and do research the long way?

 

[walkerjks]

What tree/policies do you pursue after Scholasticism?
My RA's are costing me an extra 100 (250 plus 100) from everyone.
Why? Is it worth it to take them anyway, or should I use the cash to keep cultural allies for the research bonus and do research the long way?

Take the RA, even with the premium. Shop around first, so you aren't overpaying, but I take every RA I can get (up to whatever point I know I am going to stop teching, which varies based on Diplo/Science/Cultural win). I am also curious why it is sometimes more expensive. Is it attitude? Neutral expects more that Friendly. Guarded expects more than Neutral. Or is it tech lead? If I am ahead, the AIs want a little extra case to do an RA. Based on how the price premium waxes and wanes, I suspect it is tech lead over the AI as the primary factor, but I don't know.

Edit - to answer the policy question - it depends on your victory condition. In the case of Diplomatic or Science, attack the Rationalism tree as that will further support your tech. In the case of cultural, the Freedom tree is most useful (left side before right).

 

[DaveMcW]

AIs demand an extra 100 gold for an RA if they are an era behind.

If you're doing a philosophy rush, write down which AIs go classical so you can RA them first.

 

[walkerjks]

AIs demand an extra 100 gold for an RA if they are an era behind.

If you're doing a philosophy rush, write down which AIs go classical so you can RA them first.

Makes sense. Nice hard and fast rule.

 

[Martin Alvito]

What tree/policies do you pursue after Scholasticism?

In an OCC Science game, Rationalism doesn't help all that much except for Scientific Revolution. You just don't have enough specialists or trading posts. The upshot is that you want the Rationalism policies to be more or less your last four, although taking Scientific Revolution second to last and Representation last to extend the Golden Age is usually a good idea.

If you've gotten Scholasticism early, Educated Elite is worth your time. You're looking at three or four Great People, and while they often suck you'll usually pick up an extra Great Scientist or a Great Engineer. Great Merchants aren't terrible since you're usually cash strapped, and Great Artists, well, yeah, they're a Golden Age in a Science/Diplo game once you walk them home. Woo. I'm very happy to see those in a Cultural game, though.

In a Cultural game, the left side of Freedom is far and away better than any other portion of any other tree. Those two policies are basically an extra copy of Hermitage and Cristo Redentor, and getting those two Wonders and policies (along with a Broadcast Tower) ASAP will do more for your game than anything else you can possibly do.

 

[Treso]

Beat my first deity game.
Diplomatic victory as the arab on turn 232.
Small, pangea, standard speed.

Bismark and Catherine just wiped the world so in the end game I didnt have anyone to sell my stuff becouse both were hostile to me. After built the UN I wait few turns and DoW both. I could survive enought to win the game
I will try later playing another civ.

Thanks for the strat

 

[maltz]

Thanks very much for sharing.

I wonder what is the theoretical ideal (maybe easiest, maybe not) setting for a Deity OCC science game. So far I think:

(1) Larger map (Huge if possible)
- More AI opponents to sign RA with

(2) Pangaea
- Early contact = early resource trade + always someone to buy some resources
- Abundant long rivers = hydro plant = lots of hammers at the end
- Easy to balance AI's power to avoid the birth of superpower

Earth could be nice as it offers more resources, but almost guarantees a superpower in an isolated continent. It shouldn't make a difference since the human player will beat them to victory anyway, but the loss of RA and trade opportunities could mean the player will sit on too much extra cash but no one to sign RA with. (It happened to me.)

(3) Arabia
- Resource = $ = lots of RA.

Indeed Siam and Babylon has their uses. But after trying out an RA-heavy game, I think the player's own research is insignificant after mid-game.

I also suspect whether having a military and beat up one hostile neighbor or two is a good idea. Hostile neighbors can't sign RA and buys resources very cheaply. So it is way better to beat them up with some investment in military and get the cash back (sometimes a lot more back) from the peace treaty. War also adds a lot more fun in the game. Personally that's why I play this game!

 

[Pazyryk]

Most of the benefits of Babylonian Kudzu are at their strongest later in the game: free techs from GSs, the 2 free techs with the last policy, the Rationalism golden age, +1 research from TPs (after you have a lot of little cities; I focus on farms for my core 1-4 cities and only later convert to TPs). These are valuable at any stage, of course, but all of these have more impact later than earlier.

However, the benefits of Patronage Gambit are great in early game (really the whole game, but it seems like bigger impact earlier). The only part of Babylonian Kudzu that is an "early boost" is building academy with the free GS.

So why not combine these approaches? Follow Patronage Gambit keeping a small empire (1 - 2 cities). After Scholasticism, start the left-side of the Rationalism policy branch. When the 2nd to last policy is in sight, expand explosively following Babylonian Kudzu. The free techs from the GSs and the last policy will be much delayed, but this is all the better. The timing would be tough, but it seems possible.

This strategy would depend on map, of course. It won't work on the bland and featureless default maps (Continents or Pangaea) because the AI would fill up all the city spaces too early. However, a map script that gives a realistic mix of big continents, big islands and small islands, and real mountain ranges (providing difficult-to-get-to places on even the big continents) would work. (PerfectWorld3 and Tectonics are the 2 mapscripts I know that are like this.)

 

[Martin Alvito]

However, the benefits of Patronage Gambit are great in early game (really the whole game, but it seems like bigger impact earlier). The only part of Babylonian Kudzu that is an "early boost" is building academy with the free GS.

That's going to be better on Immortal or Emperor than Deity. As you mentioned, on default maps the AI will expand too fast in a Deity game. If you're going to go horizontal, you have to commit to that from turn 1 in order to seize as many luxuries as possible. That then funds the Maritime alliances that make the satellite cities worthwhile and kick back luxuries to keep in check.

 

[MadDjinn]

Very nice research

I may even show some of it in a coming video. (if you're not horribly opposed to the idea )
For Arabia - It really is map dependent. If you're playing continents and only have 1-3 trading partners until post-Astronomy, then it will seriously dent your RAs and resource sales for quite some time.

 

[gtsecc]

I must say thank you to all the folks who have posted here.
These games are so much more fun since the internet has made it easy to share strategies.
It is truely wonderful.

This strategy worked really really well towards the beggining of the game, but I fell appart towards the end.

While I did win, I was only on Prince, or something like that, and it took 368 turns.

I think I know 2 of the problems:
1. Poor starting location - I only really had 1 luxury, Ivory
2. Half of the time the AI was an era behind, so I had to pay a 100 premium, and later on, they were all so broke, they could not afford RA's

edit: I forgot, but I think I actually settled on top of marble. I was able to pam some wonders

 

[Treso]

These strats often wont work on prince/king levels becouse it exploits the AI insane bonuses of gold. First I tried on Emperor and the AI civs just were broken and didnt have enough money to sign RAs and buy my luxuries. On Deity the AI receives tons of gold and often they have gold to buy your luxuries and sign RA.

 

[gtsecc]

you can borrow from other civs (preferably at 45 per 2/turn) to build a Library

What do you mean?
Am I supposed to buy the library?

 

[paya]

Are these strategy game plans based on some ideal conditions? I tried the Siam one on Pangea Small map Standard pace Deity and I never got to follow the gameplan - like having 250 around 10-14 turns to throw it at some Cultural CS. I also never get 3 luxuries around the Capital nor 10 different luxuries in a nearby (let's say the area as far as my nearest big civ neighbour) area that I could settle. So I'm wondering...

 

[Martin Alvito]

Are these strategy game plans based on some ideal conditions? I tried the Siam one on Pangea Small map Standard pace Deity and I never got to follow the gameplan - like having 250 around 10-14 turns to throw it at some Cultural CS. I also never get 3 luxuries around the Capital nor 10 different luxuries in a nearby (let's say the area as far as my nearest big civ neighbour) area that I could settle. So I'm wondering...

I can set up these conditions more often than not, but some starts are indeed just bad. To get 250 by turns 10-14 you need to borrow from other civs (22 per 1/turn, or 45/2), and you need to find them quickly. Ditto the 380 for the Library.

I'd say 80-85% of the starts I see post-patch are 3+ luxury starts if you move your Warrior first and burn a turn to get the third luxury. A lot of Calendar luxuries come in clusters of 3-4 now.

10+ luxuries in four cities is harder, but if you Scout effectively and get your cities down first you should be able to find those sites if you don't have an AI right up in your face at the start. Again, the patch seemed to increase the number of luxuries per cluster, which means that you can find sites with two, three or even four luxuries much more frequently now.

What do you mean?
Am I supposed to buy the library?

Yes. That wasn't the best word choice, was it?

 

[paya]

I can set up these conditions more often than not, but some starts are indeed just bad. To get 250 by turns 10-14 you need to borrow from other civs (22 per 1/turn, or 45/2), and you need to find them quickly. Ditto the 380 for the Library.

I'd say 80-85% of the starts I see post-patch are 3+ luxury starts if you move your Warrior first and burn a turn to get the third luxury. A lot of Calendar luxuries come in clusters of 3-4 now.

10+ luxuries in four cities is harder, but if you Scout effectively and get your cities down first you should be able to find those sites if you don't have an AI right up in your face at the start. Again, the patch seemed to increase the number of luxuries per cluster, which means that you can find sites with two, three or even four luxuries much more frequently now.

Just to make sure, by "set up" you mean you tweak the settings in Advanced Setup before starting, right?

And thanks for this thread, I'm quite a noob in playing the game to its full potential (even if I've been playing it since Civ II), so any advice I find here is helpful.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Just to make sure, by "set up" you mean you tweak the settings in Advanced Setup before starting, right?

No, I play standard settings with Quick Combat enabled. The steps I've outlined don't just happen for any of these strategies. Sometimes you have to move at start, swap tiles so you can borrow extra and run a deficit for a while, micromanage tiles, and so forth.

As noted, some starts are just bad. If you're looking at a flat expanse of grassland with a couple of luxuries and nothing else, no 'quick start' strategy will work well.