Tearing Up the Tech Tree - Science Strategies for Deity Play In the .217 Patch

[Tabarnak]

I`m starting to feel this way in my attempts to move up to Deity. It seens to me that playing Deity actually consists in NOT playing Deity. You have to avoid confrontations at all costs and win in the back of RA`s.

You may be playing very very well and them some little thing goes wrong and you lose. I feel so far of being able to win consistently, which means winning almost any Deity start.

I would be happy to stay on IMM if it offered me any challenge. Maybe I`ll have to impose myself additional limits. For now, I win on IMM even with very lazy play...

Preparing yourself against possible atomic bombs around turn 210 is just too intense...
You also have to be at war against 1 AI at a time or you are usually toasted.
Less bonus and more smart AI should do the job.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Preparing yourself against possible atomic bombs around turn 210 is just too intense...

One of the major reasons for pushing through the tree so hard is to get out of the game with a win before A-bombs start flying.

 

[Michl2602]

What tree/policies do you pursue after Scholasticism?
My RA's are costing me an extra 100 (250 plus 100) from everyone.
Why? Is it worth it to take them anyway, or should I use the cash to keep cultural allies for the research bonus and do research the long way?

How much you pay depends of which aera you are in. Therefore someone here recently wrote that you should always write down, when a civ makes an aera change, so that you could RA with those in the same aera as you are without paying extra.
Also, before you beeline tech to a new aera, try to get your RAs before you enter it.

The rest is answered already much more competently as I could.

 

[bhavv]

Isnt it better to go meritocracy first as Babylon for a second GS, and two Academies for your capital? That will speed teching even more, and you get enough of them from the UA that it doesnt matter if you settle those two.

Collective Rule really isnt very useful, you can just spam settlers in other cities instead. You should be trying to build wonders that give GS points in Babylon too rather than training settlers, though that probably doesnt work on Deity.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Isnt it better to go meritocracy first as Babylon for a second GS, and two Academies for your capital? That will speed teching even more, and you get enough of them from the UA that it doesnt matter if you settle those two.

This comment suggests that you don't understand why these strategies work. Your statistic before Education or Scholasticism is pretty meaningless in and of itself. All that matters is that you have enough to unlock the techs you need and block the techs you don't before Research Agreements start to land.

The Legalism trick doesn't need many early techs to function, so it can live without an Academy. A Babylonian player wants to get Happiness buildings up ASAP to expand further, and the Academy lets you research those techs without building the National College and still have enough time to block techs.

Once you achieve Scholasticism or Universities, an Academy is just a drop in the bucket. As Babylon, if you're going Meritocracy you'd much rather have the GL for a quick tech and another GS right after Research Agreements complete.

If techs in the Renaissance and later still had reasonable costs, your claim would be reasonable.

Collective Rule really isnt very useful, you can just spam settlers in other cities instead. You should be trying to build wonders that give GS points in Babylon too rather than training settlers, though that probably doesnt work on Deity.

It takes fifteen to twenty turns longer to complete the Settler builds without Collective Rule, and that matters. You need enough time for the secondary cities to build Libraries and Happiness buildings before Education lands. If you're finished settling the first wave by turn 40, you can manage it. If it takes you until turn 55, you can't.

 

[eltoddo]

Thanks for sharing all the very good strategies. I just tried the Siam Legalism abuse strategy and it worked amazing. I was playing immortal pangaea. I planted 4 cities and picked up the Wot's with legalism and then proceeded to ally all city-states (and get Scholasticism). I ended up winning game around turn 170 with tech victory. What impressed me most about this strategy is that I could have won the game with Culture, Diplomatic, or Tech. Never have I dominated so many victory types in 1 game!

 

[neilkaz]

Thanks for sharing all the very good strategies. I just tried the Siam Legalism abuse strategy and it worked amazing. I was playing immortal pangaea. I planted 4 cities and picked up the Wot's with legalism and then proceeded to ally all city-states (and get Scholasticism). I ended up winning game around turn 170 with tech victory. What impressed me most about this strategy is that I could have won the game with Culture, Diplomatic, or Tech. Never have I dominated so many victory types in 1 game!

OMG you launched at turn 170 playing standard speed?

Did you stick with just 4 cities or build a few more after Wats and Scholasticism?

Was much if any military required or did the AI's just want to love you?

 

[Martin Alvito]

I am betting it was quick. There's no way you're launching a spaceship on 170 on Standard. The math on Apollo and parts just doesn't work out.

Even the most optimistic estimate puts you at Apollo around 130. (7x RAs on 40, 70 and 100, plus GS output - and you just aren't signing 7 by 40 in the first RA wave.) 7 RAs later plus Oxford, Scientific Revolution and two GS/hard techs, and the tree unlocks on 160. Then you have to build the last parts in ten turns.

I'm just not seeing it.

 

[paya]

Thanks for sharing all the very good strategies. I just tried the Siam Legalism abuse strategy and it worked amazing. I was playing immortal pangaea. I planted 4 cities and picked up the Wot's with legalism and then proceeded to ally all city-states (and get Scholasticism). I ended up winning game around turn 170 with tech victory. What impressed me most about this strategy is that I could have won the game with Culture, Diplomatic, or Tech. Never have I dominated so many victory types in 1 game!

I'm trying Siam Abuse on Immortal Standard Pangea Standard pace - and I have Bismarck as a close neighbour - that bastard had already DoW me twice. I manage to keep others occupied with themselves and they are friendly towards me but Bismarck... But at least I'm still going, winning on the number of Techs. We'll see how it develops later.

 

[eltoddo]

sorry i accidently exaggerated slightly in reporting my win. really it was turn 187 tech victory in quick. my bad. i had germany war me in my game as well but there were some city states separating us and they never mounted serious attack despite being at war entire game.

 

[Silverfuturist]

What turn are people getting their 4 free Wats on, using Legalism Abuse?

I practiced on Emperor first and did it in 89 turns. To get 79 turns on deity I restarted right away if it looked bad, like Alexander being next door. In the future I hope to take off the "training wheels. " On Emperor it took longer because my trades were making everybody broke!

Goodie huts: free pop, +30 culture, scout became archer, map, tech (sailing.) Many deity starts I get less than this, lots of luck in how many huts I can get. Only the free pop and culture were important for this legalism abuse.

I went for a NC start with Pottery-Writing. The science boost enabled me to research up to Education the hard way, with the GS being used for Education on turn 77. After NC, I got a free settler from policy and built 2 settlers then the temple in the capitol.

I only "stole" 1 CS worker. I got a "free" cultural ally by rescuing a worker, letting the barb recapture the worker, and releasing it again... I got to do this 3 turns in a row!!! The barb was just outside of the CS's vision, so the worker headed back to the same spot each time! This was a nice break!

I bought 3 temples and the monastery, then had to spend 250 later to keep the CS my ally. Here is the cost breakdown:

3 temples = 1740
1 monastery = 500
CS gift = 250

That was 2490 gold I had to raise by turn 79. I had 5 luxuries and horses(4) to trade, settling on luxuries when possible. I even settled on wine, because I got to trade it twice before turn 79, so 300*2=600, the monestary cost 500, a 100 profit+free building. Gold ended up not being a problem, I didn't do any RAs. Selling open borders to everybody was essential of course.

I was unhappy a lot, the CS ally's luxuries helped, and the 2 luxuries past the 5 I was trading I had to use for happiness. I also had an untapped wine, waiting for legalism first. I didn't get to Iron Working yet.

Arabia has been talking trash, but so far he hasn't taken action. The other civs are far enough away to not worry about yet.

But great stuff here in the forums! With exploiting all of the controls of this game, I feel more like a lawyer than a general!

 

[walkerjks]

With exploiting all of the controls of this game, I feel more like a lawyer than a general!

Yeah, that's a real problem. Between RA blocking and making sure SPs pop at the right time and great people pop simultaneously there can be a lot of micromanagement. I would say this - if you want to compete in the gauntlets, you have to earn to micromanage. If you want to get inn the HoF table (outside the gauntlet ones), you don't need to micromanage yet - learn the general principles and don't worry about the minor messups. If you are completey playing for fun rather than fame, forget the micromanaging entirely,

There's a ton to be learned just from the general approach, even without actually blocking techs to exactly 25% of required amounts and timing great people to pop at the same time and making sure the right SP pops just after the the tech that opens it up, etc. Martin Alvito's strategies (just to use an example since we are in his thread) work whether you are trying to min-max the game or simply do pretty darned well. You aren't forced to fret over whether you get education by turn 70 or turn 80 (or turn 90).

 

[Martin Alvito]

What turn are people getting their 4 free Wats on, using Legalism Abuse?

70ish if I time SPs right, 80ish if I botch it somehow. A smarter player than me would prebuild the Temples, leave them 1 turn short of completion, do the math and finish them on the turn that makes everything work out.

I went for a NC start with Pottery-Writing. The science boost enabled me to research up to Education the hard way, with the GS being used for Education on turn 77.

That's a pretty solid time for hard teching it. I think you're making your life a lot harder by rushing the buildings. Sometimes I have to rush the last Temple, and sometimes I don't. But I can get the first three in, and I find I don't need Colosseums that early, so it's not like the queue is all that busy.

If you're worried about dying, make a Warrior everywhere, push Iron Working while you wait on Education and upgrade. But buying AIs into wars is a lot cheaper.

 

[MadDjinn]

you can gain the tech lead mid-late game if you follow the advice about using Scholasticism (3+ CSs) and using both specialist slots in the universities without many RAs. This is if you can manage to keep the AIs from spamming RAs with each other. It does work sometimes.

It's another way to go with the Arabs if you don't want to OCC. Use the cash to ensure the AIs hate each other enough to not make RAs.

 

[gtsecc]

70ish if I time SPs right, 80ish if I botch it somehow. A smarter player than me would prebuild the Temples, leave them 1 turn short of completion, do the math and finish them on the turn that makes everything work out.



That's a pretty solid time for hard teching it. I think you're making your life a lot harder by rushing the buildings. Sometimes I have to rush the last Temple, and sometimes I don't. But I can get the first three in, and I find I don't need Colosseums that early, so it's not like the queue is all that busy.

If you're worried about dying, make a Warrior everywhere, push Iron Working while you wait on Education and upgrade. But buying AIs into wars is a lot cheaper.

70?
Can someone do a LP to turn 80?
I cannot imagine this working.
I believe it does work, I just can't figure out how.

 

[AsmodeusUltima]

The OP mentions at several points the process of "blocking" techs as part of the strategy involving RAs and GSs. I am afraid I am unfamiliar with the term; could someone explain, or refer me to a thread that explains it? Thank you very much in advance.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

When you invest beakers (at least 33%) and stop research into certain techs, you WON'T get that tech when a research agreement is fulfilled.

This can allow you to direct the resulting tech to be an expensive and hopefully tactically valuable tech. A good example is getting Education for Siam (the Wat/Legalism bonus), or Astronomy if your on a map with other seas across the seas.

These threads show which techs need to be blocked to access classic 'slingshot' tech advances.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=407683

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=405142

 

[Deau]

The OP mentions at several points the process of "blocking" techs as part of the strategy involving RAs and GSs. I am afraid I am unfamiliar with the term; could someone explain, or refer me to a thread that explains it? Thank you very much in advance.

When you invest beakers (at least 33%) and stop research into certain techs, you WON'T get that tech when a research agreement is fulfilled.

This can allow you to direct the resulting tech to be an expensive and hopefully tactically valuable tech. A good example is getting Education for Siam (the Wat/Legalism bonus), or Astronomy if your on a map with other seas across the seas.

These threads show which techs need to be blocked to access classic 'slingshot' tech advances.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=407683

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=405142

The exact formulae for research blocking was sightly changed from that of the first post Aoxomoxoa linked, that beeing said, as I recall DaveMcW confirmed that the change was not made up to 33% but had simply fixed a very small rounding issue to the pre .217 blocking adding a "+3" so that you would always need "at least 25%" as opposed to "25%, rounded down".

What has to be known about research blocking is that this whole % deal is with regards to your least currently researched tech, in other words, if you do or did any research towards the tech you wish to pop through RA, then you need whatever % you completed in that tech +25% in every other tech to complete the block. At least I have gone back to a "at least 25%" perspective for about 2 weeks now and haven't had it fail me once yet...good thing because I don't see myself winning a deity game with a badluck RA in early game w the new AI beeing so agressive...

There are tons more "sling shots" that may reveal useful other than those mentionned in the 2 posts. They are mostly those used the most but in games with more AIs, or games where you are not affraid of beeing DoWed by a RA partner, it is possible to get much more out of it.

For example, when I have a very rich starting area, instead of signing 2 RAs to pop rifling after I have gunpowder and am locking the cannons, I just sign 4 RAs all together and pop rifling&fertilizer. Fertilizer itself is useless for the warmongering but it will save me a pricier RA later in the game (as cost increases by era) and since I'm going to war, chances are my later RA partners will be less reliable so it's better getting them early.

 

[neopara]

Nice write up, I had fun trying them out.

The first two strategies are definitely doable, but I just can't seem to pull off the Babylonian Kudzu in deity. How many cities do you expect to get in total?

I have no problem REXing to 6-7 cities in the first phase, but usually get DOWed (nonwarrior rush) if I am to aggressive with it. I tried to go less aggressive, but then I notice that the AI eats up most of the land when I ready to go for my second phase. I tried all the diplomatic tricks, but just can't seem to get it to work. Do you have any suggestions?

And for anyone that wants to play Siam science victory on deity, please try out this map. I rolled it last night and couldn't believe how nice it was for that strategy.

 

[Deau]

Nice write up, I had fun trying them out.

The first two strategies are definitely doable, but I just can't seem to pull off the Babylonian Kudzu in deity. How many cities do you expect to get in total?

I have no problem REXing to 6-7 cities in the first phase, but usually get DOWed (nonwarrior rush) if I am to aggressive with it. I tried to go less aggressive, but then I notice that the AI eats up most of the land when I ready to go for my second phase. I tried all the diplomatic tricks, but just can't seem to get it to work. Do you have any suggestions?

And for anyone that wants to play Siam science victory on deity, please try out this map. I rolled it last night and couldn't believe how nice it was for that strategy.

The AI has changed significantly since .217 in terms of warmongering. The diplomatic tricks listed are pretty much outdated. Your best bet at huge REX is to DoF all of your closer neighbors so that the only AIs DoWing you are those so far away you can react...or that simply won't send any unit because you are too far but have DoWed because of the AI change...

Anyway even though there are still lots of very valueable informations in the OP, the major DoW/diplo changes in .275 has put a threat to executing it exactly as is.