Tearing Up the Tech Tree - Science Strategies for Deity Play In the .217 Patch

[Rittmeyer]

Are these strategy game plans based on some ideal conditions? I tried the Siam one on Pangea Small map Standard pace Deity and I never got to follow the gameplan - like having 250 around 10-14 turns to throw it at some Cultural CS. I also never get 3 luxuries around the Capital nor 10 different luxuries in a nearby (let's say the area as far as my nearest big civ neighbour) area that I could settle. So I'm wondering...

Small maps will be more complicated. I play small too, and when comparing my world to the ones of other Deity players here (who play standard maps), mine is not so beautiful.

I'm not even saying small maps are harder (even if I think they are). I'm just saying that the ideal strategies *might* be different.

 

[Martin Alvito]

IIRC a Small map has the tightest spacing between civs of any map. That makes Small a warmonger's paradise and a builder's hell. As you compress the spacing between civs, the availability of quality, unoccupied city sites decreases. That might explain the observation that multi-luxury, secondary city sites are hard to come by on Small.

 

[Rittmeyer]

and since the warmonger route is complicated in Deity, my feeling could be right.

do you think the low sea level setting could make things more balanced in small maps?

 

[Martin Alvito]

do you think the low sea level setting could make things more balanced in small maps?

I bet it would help. If there are more land tiles, the map generator should spread you out more, and there will be more Calendar/Mining/Trapping luxuries.

 

[Treso]

My first deity game that I win was small pangea and using this strategy (arabs).

 

[Storminator]

I haven't fully got the hang of this yet, but it's already improved my game a lot. I keep getting worlds that simply make the first strategy impossible (I can't find either cultural or maritime CS before my scout gets killed, or I have 4 copies of the same lux - that everyone I meet already has, or I get so overwhelmed with barbarians my workers can't step outside the city -- sheesh!), but when I've got the right combos it's made a big difference.

I need to figure out how to get all this science working out while still building some units.

PS

 

[paya]

Well today I was more successful - until Arabs and then Greeks and Native Americans all DoWed me at once... Nevertheless, like Storminator said, I'm getting better.

 

[vexing]

before my scout gets killed

when scouting always move one tile at a time, and always try to end up on a hill tile or forest tile. if you happen to end up in the area of a barb, you'll usually survive their initial attack if you're in rough terrain.

 

[DaveMcW]

when scouting always move one tile at a time, and always try to end up on a hill tile or forest tile. if you happen to end up in the area of a barb, you'll usually survive their initial attack if you're in rough terrain.

I do the opposite... always try to get on a hill/forest with the first move. That way I can see the barbarians coming and avoid them!

 

[Tabarnak]

I do the opposite... always try to get on a hill/forest with the first move. That way I can see the barbarians coming and avoid them!

Worst thing is when a barb spawn close from his camp and decide to attack with his fortified buddy. Scout has no chance to survive. But most of the time he attacks alone. I try to be at least 3 tiles from a camp to avoid this.

 

[trueblue]

this strat is of course highly situational, as are all diety games, and should have came with a disclaimer.


theres also a big slab of luck involved.

 

[Civsassin]

@ Martin et al

What are your thoughts on settling the GS from Meritocracy for the extra 6 instead of the GL or another Wonder.

 

[Treso]

Even playing with Babilon I didnt like the GS settled. I prefer to bulb something usefull. Or just pocket him to combo with other free techs (GS, GL, scientif revolution, oxford) to beeling a tech.

 

[topresch]

Tried the Arab-strategy on Emperor level, which I usually never play, and won easily Thanks for the strategies, Martin! Gonna up it to Immortal next time and then try Deity

EDIT: Tried it on Deity with Arabs (Pangea/8 civs/16 CS), and started actually on a peninsula connected to the main continent by a one-tile wide landbridge, and the peninsula contained 1 CS (maritime), lots of silver (3 around my Cap), 1 marble and 1 fur (within Cap), a desert full of Iron and Oil, spread out Horses, Sheep and Cattle here and there, 1 coal and 2 alum, although I won before I settled any Alum, by 1450 AD. Predictably, all the continent-civs fought with each other, while ALL eventually had Friendly relations with me, so I cashed in regularly. Pretty easy and sweet Deity win for a first-timer on that Diff.

 

[Pazyryk]

OK, I tried out my plan for Patronage Gambit followed by Babylonian Kudzu at Immortal difficulty. Some parts worked and others not.

1. I followed Patronage Gambit instructions settling only 2 cities. (I used the free GS to make an academy per the Babylonian Kudzu.)
2. As I was taking Scholastisism (4th SP) I expanded to 4 cities and then 6 (I play PerfectWorld3 so there are many nooks 'n crannies with all the mountain ranges and islands -- these fill up but only very late).
3. I proceeded more slowly down the left-hand side of Rationalism. I actually was able to take 2 extra SP before I took the last Rationalism SP for the 2 free techs (both for spaceship part techs).

I finished around 1720 (whatever turn that is). That's pretty good but I've done slightly better before in a game where I could keep the peace and get more RAs. I had to rush buy walls in one city and several military units in this game. I certainly aggravated the situation by settling near Rome for a 4 resource city, although it was better to own this city since I was sure I would fight him either way.

The main problem from a "technical" point of view is that I never really finished the Kudzu part. My capital generated 2 GS's and 1 GE (the GE because tiles were limited for this city so it was either GE or work sea tiles). 2nd city 2 GS's. 3rd city 1 GS. But the remaining 3 cities never generated a single GS, even though I prioritized university (monument->library->university; rush bought colosseum in 1 or 2 of these). The great people bars were only about 1/2 done due to all the great people I had already generated from my core 3 cities. The 3 final cities may or may not have been worth it. They got me 2 more luxuries and 1 strategic resource to trade for money. However, settling them soured my relations with 2 more AIs which forced me to take 150 gp for many cash trades.

 

[Martin Alvito]

What are your thoughts on settling the GS from Meritocracy for the extra 6 instead of the GL or another Wonder.

I don't think it's a great idea. 6 per turn isn't worth three SPs, especially when you can just slap up the National College later. Landed Elite will get you that six per turn eventually if you expand, along with +11 and free border pops along the way.

OK, I tried out my plan for Patronage Gambit followed by Babylonian Kudzu at Immortal difficulty. Some parts worked and others not.

You don't want to blend strategies. With Babylon, any city not settled by about turn 100 probably will never produce a Great Scientist. As a result, staying small for any period of time is a poor idea. The idea with early Collective Rule is to get out there and put down as many cities as possible as early as possible. Because you have the free Academy, you aren't at a huge disadvantage to a player that went vertical despite burning a lot of , and therefore possible population, on additional cities.

 

[Pazyryk]

You don't want to blend strategies. With Babylon, any city not settled by about turn 100 probably will never produce a Great Scientist. As a result, staying small for any period of time is a poor idea. The idea with early Collective Rule is to get out there and put down as many cities as possible as early as possible. Because you have the free Academy, you aren't at a huge disadvantage to a player that went vertical despite burning a lot of , and therefore possible population, on additional cities.

I see your point about getting those extra cities down fast in order to get 1 GS from each (something I failed at). However, the Rationalism benefits are really at their best later, and I had two SPs to spare while still getting the 2 free techs SP in time for spaceship building (for best benefit at the end). Babylon is certainly a viable pick for the Patronage Gambit (the acadamy helps) and I believe I had Scholasticism at around turn 70 (and at that time I was going from 3 culture CSs to 7 or 8 CSs). It seems to me that this worked well (despite "unrealized" GP points in 3 cities) and was close to working perfectly. If I had had more workable tiles around my capital (so fewer great people popped there) and if I had settled my 4th and 5th cities a little earlier (and not bothered with the 6th), then all would have timed out perfectly. I delayed on the expansion part for fear of slowing SP progress, but that fear was clearly unwarranted.

I do have to say that neither city states (Patronage Gambit) nor GS pops (Babylonion Kudzu) hold a candle to the power of RAs. Of course, as you said, you should be perusing RAs in any of these strategies. But my earliest wins are always the games with the most total RAs, regardless of how organized or disorganized I am on everything else.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The big advantage with Babylon for the Patronage Gambit is that you don't have to bother with Meritocracy. That lets you avoid early spending on Culture, stay in the Tradition tree, and bring Scholasticism online with the fifth policy instead of the sixth.

You're correct that during the Renaissance, production ceases to matter much and Research Agreements do almost all of the lifting. What that means is that you want to tear through Medieval and the early Renaissance as quickly as possible, so that all of your Research Agreements give you technologies you could not otherwise quickly research with . It also follows that, all else equal, games with more RAs will end sooner with games than fewer.

Babylon is the lone exception to that rule. The extra potential for Great Scientists means that it's reasonable to move through Medieval and Renaissance a bit more slowly. You more than make up the delay with the free techs at the end.

 

[Pazyryk]

I should also note that I'm playing without any explicit attempt to block (although I'm aware of blocking so I try not to accidentally block techs that I want). No judgement on others for doing this -- it's just my personal preference. One nice thing with the patch is that techs like chemistry and fertilizer now have value for builders, so all RAs coming before modern age are valuable (only the Combustion branch is useless for science). This house rule makes some strategies impossible, but I was interested in your first and third strategies here because they can be done without any RA blocking. I've won space victories at 1705 (pre-patch, Emperor) and 1720 (post-patch Immortal). So now the goal that's driving me is to win this before 1700 on Immortal. (Diety seems like not too much fun to me -- I'll wait a year and hope that subsequent patches and improving AI keep Immortal challenging to me.)

 

[Rittmeyer]

(Diety seems like not too much fun to me -- I'll wait a year and hope that subsequent patches and improving AI keep Immortal challenging to me.)

I`m starting to feel this way in my attempts to move up to Deity. It seens to me that playing Deity actually consists in NOT playing Deity. You have to avoid confrontations at all costs and win in the back of RA`s.

You may be playing very very well and them some little thing goes wrong and you lose. I feel so far of being able to win consistently, which means winning almost any Deity start.

I would be happy to stay on IMM if it offered me any challenge. Maybe I`ll have to impose myself additional limits. For now, I win on IMM even with very lazy play...