Tech Tree Discussion

[Koshling]

Thanks, here ya go. Using v24.

This is actually quite interesting. The reason for the difference is two-fold, part (IMO) bug, and part inconsistency in the definition of the techs.

The key thing to understand is that if a tech has OR tech pre-reqs then each one you know amplifies your research modifer for researching the tech in question.

Now TECH_PAPER has these pre-reqs:

<OrPreReqs>
	<PrereqTech>TECH_GUILDS</PrereqTech>
</OrPreReqs>
<AndPreReqs>
	<PrereqTech>TECH_THEOLOGY</PrereqTech>
	<PrereqTech>TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE</PrereqTech>
</AndPreReqs>

whereas TECH_USURY has:

<OrPreReqs/>
<AndPreReqs>
	<PrereqTech>TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE</PrereqTech>
</AndPreReqs>

So the (single) OR pre-req on TECH_PAPER gives you a research boost. However, it should be only a 50% boost in this case, yet you are seeing a 4-fold difference....that brings us to the (IMO) bug:

There is also an era modifier, and for that era it's a 75% reduction in tech rate, as well as a global one (not sure what that's there for, but it is) of 10%. However, the two modifiers are combined additively not multiplicatively. So for ursury you have:

100% (base) - 75% (era) - 10% (global) = 15%

Whereas for paper you have:

100% (base) -75% (era) + 50% (OR prereqs) - 10% = 65%

the difference between 15% of your total science oputput and 65% is what gives rise to the 4 fold difference in research time.

So what should we do. Here are my opinions:

1) [@Hydro/ls612/Volkarya] Is it deliberate that TECH_PAPER is specified with a single OR pre-req instead of just making it a 3rd AND? In general, although the net effective requirements are the same, this changes the costs as discussed above, and MANY techs have single ORs, which may or may not be deliberate - someone needs to decide (ideally with a full pass through the tech tree to ratioanlize it). ALTERNATIVELY, I **COULD** change the code to ignore ORs that only have one branch (and are therefore effectively ANDs) and not provide any modifier in that case.

2) I think the modifiers should combine multiplicatively and additively (in which case you'd see 2:1 instead fo 4:1 for the 50% OR pre-req boost if that were to stay)

Opinions..?

 

[AIAndy]

1) [@Hydro/ls612/Volkarya] Is it deliberate that TECH_PAPER is specified with a single OR pre-req instead of just making it a 3rd AND? In general, although the net effective requirements are the same, this changes the costs as discussed above, and MANY techs have single ORs, which may or may not be deliberate - someone needs to decide (ideally with a full pass through the tech tree to ratioanlize it). ALTERNATIVELY, I **COULD** change the code to ignore ORs that only have one branch (and are therefore effectively ANDs) and not provide any modifier in that case.

Single ORs should not give a discount as you will always get that discount which if deliberate should rather be done as a reduction in the tech cost itself.
I assume most of those are remnants of having two OR prereqs there earlier.

 

[BlueGenie]

In the code a single OR only gives a 15% boost. If you are seeing 50% it's more likely a diffusion/welfare granted boost.

Cheers

 

[Koshling]

In the code a single OR only gives a 15% boost. If you are seeing 50% it's more likely a diffusion/welfare granted boost.

Cheers

No it's not - I stepped through the code in the debugger on the provided save game, so I'm 100% certain of the origins of all factors.

Edit - I stand corrected - just stepped through again since it did look like 15%, and I had mis-tracked one change. You are correct that diffusion is also partially responsible (more civs know paper than know usury, so your cost is lower).

However, the multiplicative vs additive thing still amplifies the effects, and the OR bonus issue still exists, thoguh not at as significant a level as I first thought.

 

[ls612]

@Koshling:

Wow, I had no idea about OR prereqs and tech costs. I guess you learn something every day. There are hundreds of techs with single OR prereqs, so it would be a massive amount of effort to move those all to AND prereqs. I would vote for making the code treat single ORs as AND prereqs.

I think that OR prereqs should not be giving so large of a bonus to the research, 10% per (with the exception of single ORs) seems more than enough for that. The display should also be fixed to account for this (and for the era mods and tech diffusion, which it seems to ignore in the mouseover).

 

[jmmendesp]

@Koshling:The display should also be fixed to account for this (and for the era mods and tech diffusion, which it seems to ignore in the mouseover).

This would be really helpful to players.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Now TECH_PAPER has these pre-reqs:

<OrPreReqs>
	<PrereqTech>TECH_GUILDS</PrereqTech>
</OrPreReqs>
<AndPreReqs>
	<PrereqTech>TECH_THEOLOGY</PrereqTech>
	<PrereqTech>TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE</PrereqTech>
</AndPreReqs>

Does this mean (TECH_GUILDS or TECH_THEOLOGY) and TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE or does it mean TECH_GUILDS or (TECH_THEOLOGY and TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE)? I forget. In either case aren't there two "ors"?

 

[AIAndy]

Does this mean (TECH_GUILDS or TECH_THEOLOGY) and TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE or does it mean TECH_GUILDS or (TECH_THEOLOGY and TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE)? I forget. In either case aren't there two "ors"?

It means TECH_GUILDS and TECH_THEOLOGY and TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE.

 

[Vokarya]

@Koshling:

Wow, I had no idea about OR prereqs and tech costs. I guess you learn something every day. There are hundreds of techs with single OR prereqs, so it would be a massive amount of effort to move those all to AND prereqs. I would vote for making the code treat single ORs as AND prereqs.

I think that OR prereqs should not be giving so large of a bonus to the research, 10% per (with the exception of single ORs) seems more than enough for that. The display should also be fixed to account for this (and for the era mods and tech diffusion, which it seems to ignore in the mouseover).

I agree. I had no idea that single OR prerequisites made a difference in research times. I agree with having the code treat single OR prerequisites as AND prerequisites and decrease the OR percentage to 10%.

Moving the OR prerequisites to AND might also mess up the visuals of the tech tree; I am fairly sure that the OR prerequisites are used to calculate the actual arrows between techs on the tech tree grid and the AND prerequisites are those little icons on the upper-right corner of each tech.

 

[Koshling]

It means TECH_GUILDS and TECH_THEOLOGY and TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE.

Strictly it's TECH_THEOLOGY and TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE and (TECH_GUILDS or <nothing>)

 

[Koshling]

Relativistic sports anyone?: http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

 

[strategyonly]

Relativistic sports anyone?: http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

ahahaaha Nice I needed that after yesterday!!

 

[ls612]

Relativistic sports anyone?: http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

I suppose I should scrap my plans for a relativistic pitching machine then.

 

[Thunderbrd]

lol... that was awesome! I guess that's ONE way to get a nuclear blast started. Shhh... don't tell the terrorists!

 

[Vokarya]

As I said before, I have never been completely comfortable with the way we cost new technologies in the Classical Era and later. I went through the Classical Era and came up with a new system for costing Classical Era technologies so they are much more uniform. It turns out that I didn't need to worry about the turns at all. All I needed to look at are the total base costs before and after, and whatever calculations are performed afterwards will be the same.

These are the principles I was using to re-cost and re-position the technologies:

• All techs on the same column have the same cost.
• The increase from one column to the next should stay constant or should increase; it should not decrease (150 - 200 - 250 or 150 - 200 - 300 is fine, but not 150 - 200 - 225).
• The total beaker count for the era should be kept as close to the original as possible.
• I moved some techs forward or backward to match up with other technologies of the same difficulty to reach their prerequisites (if you look at my tech tree, they are on the same level).
• I swapped some AND and OR requirements to make the lines better. I did not actually change any prerequisites.

The base cost system I came up with is the following:

• X27: 125
• X28: 150
• X29: 200
• X30: 250
• X31: 300
• X32: 400
• X33: 500
• X34: 600

The last column is the only one that I am not absolutely sure of. If techs in the last column cost 700, the total beaker count for the era is absolutely unchanged. However, if I have 700 in the last column, that means the first column of the Medieval Era would have to be 900 (500 - 700 - 900) and the numbers would have to jump by 200 per column. With 600 in the last column, the total beaker count for the Classical Era drops by 3%. I don't think that is a bad tradeoff, and it leaves 700 and 800 as possibilities for the early Medieval Era.

This is what the tech tree would look like:

View attachment 326961View attachment 326962

I tried to put "core" technologies towards the center of tree, and specialized technologies towards the edges. Religions tended to wind up on the top rows, and techs like the weather line and the horse line ended up towards the bottom.

Here is the column-by-column breakdown:

Column X27 (7 techs, 7x Level-1, base cost 125)

Spoiler :

• X27 Y1: Ship Building (Original Cost 120)
• X27 Y3: Meditation (Original Cost 120)
• X27 Y5: Alphabet (Original Cost 120)
• X27 Y7: Mathematics (Original Cost 120)
• X27 Y9: Currency (Original Cost 120)
• X27 Y11: Empty
• X27 Y13: Monarchy (Original Cost 120)
• X27 Y15: Empty
• X27 Y17: Empty
• X27 Y19: Glass Blowing (Original Cost 120)

Column X28 (8 techs, 5x Level-1 + 3x Level-2, base cost 150)

Spoiler :

• X28 Y1: Empty
• X28 Y3: Judaism (Original Cost 125)
• X28 Y5: Zoroastrianism (Original Cost 125)
• X28 Y7: Geometry (Original Cost 120)
• X28 Y9: Empty
• X28 Y11: Iron Working (Original Cost 200)
• X28 Y13: Road Building (Original Cost 120)
• X28 Y15: Athletics (Original Cost 240)
• X28 Y17: Cloud Patterns (Original Cost 200)
• X28 Y19: Horse Breeding (Original Cost 300)

Column X29 (7 techs, 7x Level-2, base cost 200)

Spoiler :

• X29 Y1: Asatru (Original Cost 125)
• X29 Y3: Buddhism (Original Cost 125)
• X29 Y5: Calendar (Original Cost 350)
• X29 Y7: Empty
• X29 Y9: Code of Laws (Original Cost 350)
• X29 Y11: Construction (Original Cost 350)
• X29 Y13: Empty
• X29 Y15: Combat Sports (Original Cost 265)
• X29 Y17: Hellenism (Original Cost 240)
• X29 Y19: Empty

Column X30 (8 techs, 3x Level-2 + 5x Level-3, base cost 250)

Spoiler :

• X30 Y1: Andeanism (Original Cost 240)
• X30 Y3: Naghualism (Original Cost 240)
• X30 Y5: Astrology (Original Cost 120)
• X30 Y7: Aristocracy (Original Cost 300)
• X30 Y9: Literature (Original Cost 350)
• X30 Y11: Democracy (Original Cost 260)
• X30 Y13: Ancient Ballistics (Original Cost 300)
• X30 Y15: Empty
• X30 Y17: Empty
• X30 Y19: Mounted Archery (Original Cost 400)

Column X31 (7 techs, 7x Level-3, base cost 300)

Spoiler :

• X31 Y1: Spice Trade (Original Cost 350)
• X31 Y3: Ancient Medicine (Original Cost 350)
• X31 Y5: Empty
• X31 Y7: Calligraphy (Original Cost 350)
• X31 Y9: Concrete (Original Cost 350)
• X31 Y11: Meritocracy (Original Cost 400)
• X31 Y13: Empty
• X31 Y15: City Planning (Original Cost 260)
• X31 Y17: Empty
• X31 Y19: Stirrup (Original Cost 480)

Column X32 (7 techs, 7x Level-4, base cost 400)

Spoiler :

• X32 Y1: Drug Trade (Original Cost 350)
• X32 Y3: Insurance (Original Cost 500)
• X32 Y5: Aesthetics (Original Cost 300)
• X32 Y7: Empty
• X32 Y9: Confucianism (Original Cost 300)
• X32 Y11: Siege Warfare (Original Cost 300)
• X32 Y13: Canal Systems (Original Cost 500)
• X32 Y15: Empty
• X32 Y17: Philosophy (Original Cost 500)
• X32 Y19: Empty

Column X33 (7 techs, 7x Level-5, base cost 500)

Spoiler :

• X33 Y1: Jainism (Original Cost 300)
• X33 Y3: Drama (Original Cost 350)
• X33 Y5: Floristry (Original Cost 300)
• X33 Y7: Mosaic Working (Original Cost 300)
• X33 Y9: Empty
• X33 Y11: Empty
• X33 Y13: Machinery (Original Cost 700)
• X33 Y15: Sanitation (Original Cost 550)
• X33 Y17: Empty
• X33 Y19: Sikhism (Original Cost 400)

Column X34 (6 techs, 3x Level-5 + 3x Level-6, base cost 600)

Spoiler :

• X34 Y1: Music (Original Cost 600)
• X34 Y3: Poetry (Original Cost 600)
• X34 Y5: Empty
• X34 Y7: Empty
• X34 Y9: Paved Roads (Original Cost 700)
• X34 Y11: Vassalage (Original Cost 500)
• X34 Y13: Empty
• X34 Y15: Smithing (Original Cost 600)
• X34 Y17: Empty
• X34 Y19: Weather Lore (Original Cost 600)

Some thoughts:
The biggest drops are in the core technologies: Calendar, Code of Laws, and Construction all drop from 350 to 200 under this scheme. Machinery drops from 700 to 500. The mounted technologies also drop sharply: Horse Breeding goes from 300 to 150, Mounted Archery from 400 to 250, and Stirrup from 480 to 300.
The Aesthetics technologies have probably the sharpest jumps. Aesthetics itself goes from 300 to 400, Floristry goes from 300 to 500, and Drama from 350 to 500. Music and Poetry stay unchanged at 600. Most of the Religion-founding techs take hits: Judaism and Zoroastrianism go from 125 to 150, Asatru and Buddhism jump from 125 to 200, and Jainism and Sikhism clock in at 500. Andeanism and Naghualism are only changed a little, and Hellenism actually drops.

If you'd like to try this out yourself, I have attached a ZIP of the edited Civ4TechInfos.xml file.

Let me know what you think, and if I should go on.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Before I comment on specific things I had a question about the look. Whys it look like it has 2 techs on top of each other for every tech?

EDIT: The new proposed costs seems reasonable. I like it. Especially sicne so many have been moved around in the past and costs do not reflect their new locations.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

Before I comment on specific things I had a question about the look. Whys it look like it has 2 techs on top of each other for every tech?

That's a C2C option in the Ctrl+Alt+O menu. Under the Advisors tab is an option marked Show Era. If you check that box, you get the shadow under each technology. Hovering on that shadow just shows you the tech era. I happen to like it, so I have it on.

I checked my placement over at least twice to make sure I didn't have any techs on top of another.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ah ok. I might do that too. It looks cool.

Anywho as I said above ...

EDIT: The new proposed costs seems reasonable. I like it. Especially since so many have been moved around in the past and costs do not reflect their new locations.

However on where you moved techs ... I don't know. I will have to look at them closer.

EDIT:

1. My first impressions are that I don't like how the religious techs are not next to their key techs. Ex. Buddhism not next to Meditation.

2. Another problem is there are some general flows of techs such as the top for sea techs and the bottom for Riding techs (which I would like to keep).

 

[Vokarya]

Ah ok. I might do that too. It looks cool.

Anywho as I said above ...



However on where you moved techs ... I don't know. I will have to look at them closer.

EDIT:

1. My first impressions are that I don't like how the religious techs are not next to their key techs. Ex. Buddhism not next to Meditation.

2. Another problem is there are some general flows of techs such as the top for sea techs and the bottom for Riding techs (which I would like to keep).

Buddhism can be swapped for Judaism if you really want it. There should be fairly clear lines for the other religion techs. Another option that would work is swapping Ship Building and Meditation for Judaism and Zoroastrianism, putting the two religions in X27 and then Ship Building and Meditation in X28, right next to Asatru and Buddhism in X29.

I was trying to keep flows in mind when I moved some techs around. For example, all of the techs that require Aesthetics are grouped at the top of the tree.

The Riding techs are all in the bottom row of the tree. Horse Breeding is X28 Y19, X29 Y19 is empty, Mounted Archery is X30 Y19, and Stirrup is X31 Y19.

Where is there another sea tech? I don't remember there being any between Ship Building and Rudder, and I put Ancient Ballistics next to Construction.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

How about this, we have the costs ...

X27: 125
X28: 150
X29: 200
X30: 250
X31: 300
X32: 400
X33: 500
X34: 600

... but leave the techs where they are.