Tech Tree Revisions

[Rezca]

Interesting, so Neural Networks might have a shot at staying after all? Pity I still can't really think of anything that might help hah!


I got a bit excited when I read 'Archeology' I admit. One of those "concepts" that I always wondered why wasn't in Civilization in the first place. I Wanted to think that it would mean including the 'Fossils' resource from C2C to go with it, but I stopped myself from getting *too* excited when I remembered you said you weren't interested in adding new resources

It's still one of those things I'd like to see in, but then again it means a lot more work than most other things - since all the map scripts have to be updated along with the usual XML changes heh. Not really worth the hassle for something so small.

That aside, I like the new ideas

 

[Vokarya]

Interesting, so Neural Networks might have a shot at staying after all? Pity I still can't really think of anything that might help hah!

Neural Networks is getting cut in my next build. I just can't see anything that would raise it to the two-trick-threshold for viability, since it's sitting at a flat zero right now. Every other tech has at least one trick, and I can see some potential content for the 1-trick and 1.5-trick techs, but it's going to take some work to create said content. I think the only two techs where I really can't see a way to viability are 3D Modeling and Quantum Teleportation, but even then we could find something.

I got a bit excited when I read 'Archeology' I admit. One of those "concepts" that I always wondered why wasn't in Civilization in the first place. I Wanted to think that it would mean including the 'Fossils' resource from C2C to go with it, but I stopped myself from getting *too* excited when I remembered you said you weren't interested in adding new resources

It's still one of those things I'd like to see in, but then again it means a lot more work than most other things - since all the map scripts have to be updated along with the usual XML changes heh. Not really worth the hassle for something so small.

That aside, I like the new ideas

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Fossils as a map resource. What I really don't want to do is proliferate manufactured resources. The only things that I would insist on are that we keep Fossils to one generic resource (we don't really need lots of different ones) and that we find some good ways to tie it into other buildings or other things, along the lines of what I did when I added the Paper resource. We would definitely have to go in and fix not only the map scripts, but also all the pre-made maps (and I count 17 of those).

 

[<Nexus>]

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Fossils as a map resource. What I really don't want to do is proliferate manufactured resources. The only things that I would insist on are that we keep Fossils to one generic resource (we don't really need lots of different ones) and that we find some good ways to tie it into other buildings or other things, along the lines of what I did when I added the Paper resource. We would definitely have to go in and fix not only the map scripts, but also all the pre-made maps (and I count 17 of those).

Can't resources be added by events? That would be an easier way to just add an event, isn't it? Or that has some other problems? Just asking.

 

[Vokarya]

Can't resources be added by events? That would be an easier way to just add an event, isn't it? Or that has some other problems? Just asking.

Adding resources through events has problems of its own - the event might never trigger, and some people play with events off (I think it happens a lot in multiplayer games). I think you have to have the resources added as part of the map generation for it to work properly.

 

[Rezca]

Adding resources through events has problems of its own - the event might never trigger, and some people play with events off (I think it happens a lot in multiplayer games). I think you have to have the resources added as part of the map generation for it to work properly.

Having Fossils spawn during the course of the game as well as being generated by the map might be a good idea, but I wouldn't have it *only* Event-spawned. Not everyone plays with events enabled after all.

Other things to keep in mind would be
*Where does it spawn? Any limitations? (Desert/jungle/hills only maybe...?)
*Frequency? One problem I have with Fossils in C2C is how dang rare they are.
*Tile bonuses? I'd imagine Some + on the tile, maybe +2?
*How will it be used? What buildings will benefit? Museum is a given, but bonus? maybe? Happiness? Would any Transhuman techs influence it (Artificial Life, etc...) I'd think it being an opposite to Ancient Relics perhaps, with one providing gold and the other science, or both providng a small amount of the same bonus.
*Will Corporations benefit from it? Which ones?

 

[Afforess]

I think it would be useful. Do you think you could put it in and let me decide where to use it? I have a bunch more things I want to create before I commit anything.

It's added in Rev738. I added the XML tags onto 2 techs to demo it, you are free to change/remove. For example, on TECH_MONARCHY:

<TechInfo>
			<Type>TECH_MONARCHY</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_TECH_MONARCHY</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_TECH_MONARCHY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<Help/>
			<Strategy>TXT_KEY_TECH_MONARCHY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
			<Advisor>ADVISOR_ECONOMY</Advisor>
			<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>

...

			<TechArrowOverrides>
				<TechType>TECH_MONOTHEISM</TechType>
				<TechType>TECH_BRONZE_WORKING</TechType>
			</TechArrowOverrides>

...

		</TechInfo>

To be clear, it overrides which techs draw an arrow TO the monarchy tech. It is the incoming arrows, not outgoing. If you set any tech arrows, it erases all the previous ones and uses the overrides only. So if you wanted some of the default arrows, you need to specify those with your additional overrides.

 

[os79]

Do you realize that Technology Globalization and Civic Nationalism together is weird? Do you think that Technology should modify Nationalism? Or prefer not to over-complicate things?

 

[Vokarya]

Do you realize that Technology Globalization and Civic Nationalism together is weird? Do you think that Technology should modify Nationalism? Or prefer not to over-complicate things?

I think we can leave it the way it is. Just because you know about something doesn't mean you have to use it. Look at Slavery. You don't have to adopt the Slavery civic as soon as you discover the tech. I personally never run Slavery and I think it saves me a lot of trouble in early revolts.

 

[Spirictum]

I think we can leave it the way it is. Just because you know about something doesn't mean you have to use it. Look at Slavery. You don't have to adopt the Slavery civic as soon as you discover the tech. I personally never run Slavery and I think it saves me a lot of trouble in early revolts.

Man, I only always adopt Slavery because in Marathon/Epic Gigantics because I can't stick to -33% from Barter. This is a time of the game I already played a lot in my several failed attempts at Multiplayer with a friend

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

It's added in Rev738. I added the XML tags onto 2 techs to demo it, you are free to change/remove. For example, on TECH_MONARCHY:

<TechInfo>
			<Type>TECH_MONARCHY</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_TECH_MONARCHY</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_TECH_MONARCHY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<Help/>
			<Strategy>TXT_KEY_TECH_MONARCHY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
			<Advisor>ADVISOR_ECONOMY</Advisor>
			<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>

...

			<TechArrowOverrides>
				<TechType>TECH_MONOTHEISM</TechType>
				<TechType>TECH_BRONZE_WORKING</TechType>
			</TechArrowOverrides>

...

		</TechInfo>

To be clear, it overrides which techs draw an arrow TO the monarchy tech. It is the incoming arrows, not outgoing. If you set any tech arrows, it erases all the previous ones and uses the overrides only. So if you wanted some of the default arrows, you need to specify those with your additional overrides.

Afforess, good to see you around again. You should comment more often. To me you will always be part of the community, even if you no longer mod.

 

[Rezca]

Man, I only always adopt Slavery because in Marathon/Epic Gigantics because I can't stick to -33% from Barter. This is a time of the game I already played a lot in my several failed attempts at Multiplayer with a friend

This.

The -33% is just brutal, and the swap to Slavery makes a huge difference, except for maybe at the fastest game speeds. At least in my experiences so far.

 

[<Nexus>]

Afforess, good to see you around again. You should comment more often. To me you will always be part of the community, even if you no longer mod.

:secret:
He does. Afforess already uploaded several updates to RADN.
And we are happy.

 

[Noyyau]

Man, I only always adopt Slavery because in Marathon/Epic Gigantics because I can't stick to -33% from Barter. This is a time of the game I already played a lot in my several failed attempts at Multiplayer with a friend

That, and the extra production is welcome. Of course I still only have a handful of cities at this point, so revolts aren't a problem yet.
And I try to get Coinage relatively quickly anyway.

 

[os79]

I think we can leave it the way it is. Just because you know about something doesn't mean you have to use it. Look at Slavery. You don't have to adopt the Slavery civic as soon as you discover the tech. I personally never run Slavery and I think it saves me a lot of trouble in early revolts.

Hmm. The more I play, the more logic (and better strategy) I find. Thanks! Ironically, I started playing this in 2009 or thereabouts but stopped in 2011 or so. But I returned recently due to a history book and, shamelessly admitting this, Afforess' return. Since I played again, I realized my old way of playing was so inefficient but my new way got me ahead fast.
So thanks for still supporting this great mod!

 

[JosEPh_II]

This.

The -33% is just brutal, and the swap to Slavery makes a huge difference, except for maybe at the fastest game speeds. At least in my experiences so far.

Opposite view here, I never ever use Slavery Civic. I play on Monarch, Epic, and huge or giant maps. And I can still be close to or competing with the tech leaders early in the game. There are alternate paths besides using Slavery as a Science whip.

I have argued repeatedly in the past against Slavery as a Civic and some of it's bloated (imho) bonuses.

Personally I would almost like to see AND adopt C2C's approach to Slavery by removing it as a Civic altogether.

JosEPh

 

[Spirictum]

Opposite view here, I never ever use Slavery Civic. I play on Monarch, Epic, and huge or giant maps. And I can still be close to or competing with the tech leaders early in the game. There are alternate paths besides using Slavery as a Science whip.

I have argued repeatedly in the past against Slavery as a Civic and some of it's bloated (imho) bonuses.

Personally I would almost like to see AND adopt C2C's approach to Slavery by removing it as a Civic altogether.

JosEPh

Do you play with Revolution and Barb turning into full civs? Revolution makes your size a big matter in the beggining of the game (nothing better then to get oversized early so you may create a big value of , but with rev this is risky), and the barb civs make you think twice on your early size, because suddenly a big stack may pop right beside you.

My big multi-single game is on Emperor, but it was my first game and I have no idea what I did back there, but as I'm using slavery until the renaissance, I guess I switched asap. But on my attempts at multiplayer I always play on Deity, and on Deity you're already far behind doesn't matter what you use, so Slavery kicks in more for the production and less for lifting you of the -33% and , but the two added together let you try to compete with the mediocre civs, as you are all getting tech diffusion from the big guys full of techs.


BTW, how is it that C2C handles Slavery?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Rev No, I will not use it. To me it's concept and utilization is flawed. Long time ago I tried it didn't like how it played out. Argued with phungus over it's core problem. We disagreed, I don't use it.

Barb Civs/ Barb World sometimes.

C2C kept it as a Tech but took it out of being a Civic. But to the tech they added many Slavery related bldgs and Slaves as a specialist unit, plus some other things. I don't use it for C2C in either case. Nor for it's bldgs and such. I don't like the concept in the game period. So I as the player choose not to use it.

JosEPh

 

[Afforess]

IMHO slavery is a rather weak mechanic and I would be in favor of it being axed.

 

[os79]

IMHO slavery is a rather weak mechanic and I would be in favor of it being axed.

Plus Slavery concept as the game present it is weird and historically wrong. Slavery happened from two distinct, but not always separate, ways. Enslaving the enemies of the state in a war or enslaving one own population after deceiving the population into believing it is for common good. Hard to implement that in the game, I suspect, because of humanity's basic complexity.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I find Slavery is the Strongest civic for early on. I immediately tech to slavery 1st thing and switch to it.

The -33%'s for science and gold, are just too large.

I play Giagantic maps at Eternity speeds, so I'm biased that way, the 8 turns of change are offset by the teching savings on the 1st tech to be researched after switching, there after its a bonus.

The Slave market is a virtual 100% base hammer boost for any new city, and I will run this civic virtually through to the modern eara.

I find Coinage a very weak financial civic, maybe I run it in the wrong combinations.

Beaucracy is a stronger one then Senate, which I used to love, but now I realise Beaucracy is stronger, for me.

The civic between Monarchy and Democracy, escapes me at moment, is my next choice till Democracy comes in.

The others, just depends on situation.

I play continents map, 2, 3 or 4 continents, mainly 2 but have tried more. I like naval forces.

Lots of options with this mod, lots of game styles.

But I find Slavery is very powerful, even with slave revolts. It affects one city and for a max of 4 turns. Big deal, I have +20 Production cities, 1 isn't going to harm me, even if it is the capital, or my highest hammer, gold, beaker city. By this stage, the capital is only an Administrative city in the centre of my empire.