Technology tree thoughts

[Trias]

If tech trading is out the door, this should mean that AI bonus are also out the door (most of them at least). Otherwise tough difficulties become even more an unlevel playing field.

Difficulty levels will in all likelihood still be implemented by varying "handicaps" for the players and the AIs. How big these bonuses will be, will probably be determined by playtesting. (and extrapolation). In civ4 deity, a human playing optimally (on a standard map) had about a 50% chance of winning, I assume they will aim for a similar success ratio.

 

[Xzylvador]

Actually, I think the "Level 0" tech might be "Civilization"

That'd be awesome really, though I doubt it's correct.
Imagine everyone starting out as Barbarian, needing to grow and survive long enough to become what can be called "a civilization".

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That'd be awesome really, though I doubt it's correct.
Imagine everyone starting out as Barbarian, needing to grow and survive long enough to become what can be called "a civilization".

No.."Civilization" would not be researchable... "Barbarian" would be a separate (non researchable) tech

 

[Schuesseled]

We don't need to use google more; its not that we're not aware of technological developments, its that we see different advances as being the most important..

You are deluded if you think the Mathematical discoveries of Ancient Greeks were less important than those of today, I suppose next you will be telling everybody that the Ancient Roman Discoveries of Aqeducts was nothing of importance compared to Water Pipe Lines, or that Roman Road's were inconsequential compared to that of the inventions of modern motorways.

So what that splitting the atom was an important discovery in physics. Not saying that it isn't, not saying that it should be left out of Civilisation, But thiers no reason to deny the existence of early physics discoveries because you want to monopolise the already existing name physics for your "more important discovery" Ill wager the people from ancient times consider the way thier lifes were changed from thier discoveries were more important than those that would happen thousands of years later. Splitting the atom can be called Atomic Theory on the Tech tree, it can still have its place, it does not need nor should Physics only be introduced in the late modern tech tree as their were previous Discoveries this tale of time needs to tell. If you want to only have modern techs then I suggest playing from the Modern Era onwards, some of us like starting off with a primitive culture and learning the age old discoveries.

 

[Ahriman]

You are deluded if you think the Mathematical discoveries of Ancient Greeks were less important than those of today

You're deluded if you think I said this, I never said anything about mathematics.

But in terms of physics? Yes, I think Newtonian physics (ie classical mechanics) is far more important than anything the Greeks discovered about physics. Newtonian physics gives us a unified theory of mechanics. Ancient Greeks do not.

I suppose next you will be telling everybody that the Ancient Roman Discoveries of Aqeducts was nothing of importance compared to Water Pipe Lines, or that Roman Road's were inconsequential compared to that of the inventions of modern motorways.

Don't put words in my mouth.

The greeks and Romans learned a lot about a lot of stuff. But not about everything. For example; medical knowledge of the Greeks and Romans was inconsequential compared to 19th and 20th century medical innovations. Modern development of refining is far more important than ancient oil-burning or naptha. Modern mass-produced steel is more important than ancient use of small amounts of steel (this one is arguable).

So what that splitting the atom was an important discovery in physics.

Where did I mention splitting the atom? [Or rather more important; quantum mechanics in general]
I talked about Newtonian mechanics.

We already have techs representing Greek/roman developments in the kinds of things you're talking about; construction and mathematics and engineering.

 

[Kimuyama]

Classical Age

Optics - Great Lighthouse (W), Policy
Philosophy - n/a, Temple (B), Oracle (W), Policy
Horseback Riding - Horseman (U), n/a, Circus (B)
Mathematics - Catapult (U), n/a, Garden (B)
Construction - This looks like the resource people have been referring to as aluminum or saltpepper, Great Wall (W), Policy
Iron Working - Swordsman (U), n/a, n/a, Iron (R)

That resource looks a lot like Colosseum then (maybe as a building or that they included it as a wonder)

 

[Ositario]

But in terms of physics? Yes, I think Newtonian physics (ie classical mechanics) is far more important than anything the Greeks discovered about physics. Newtonian physics gives us a unified theory of mechanics. Ancient Greeks do not.

How do you messure importance. I think to messure that you have to see, how an discovery changed the live of humans. And in that sence, lot of what you call unimportend or less importent had an bigger effekt on the humans than some modern inventions.

You brought up steel. in that case, the romens use of steel massproduktions shaped the face of europ asia und afrika for almoste a millenia. for there weappon tech had no smal part in there sucess. and about the greek one exemple is the Archimedes screw witch made irrigation in some place possible where it was not before. and it is still in use. to call such an invation more or less importend then combustions is not justified.

 

[Ahriman]

And in that sence, lot of what you call unimportend or less importent had an bigger effekt on the humans than some modern inventions.

How so? Note that the practical applications of the Greek/Roman advances are already included in the Construction and Mathematics techs, and then Engineering.

Its logical then to leave Physics for classical Newtonian mechanics and calculus.
And then leave modern physics for Atomic Theory.

to call such an invation more or less importend then combustions is not justified.

Sure it is. The internal combustion engine has totally transformed the world, and affects the lives of most people on the planet. It affects where and how we live, what goods we produce and our productivity of them, how we trade, what jobs we have, how we travel and where, and so forth. Cars, planes, trucks, tractors, modern ships. We wouldn't have anything like the world we do today if we'd still relied on coal.

Romans did not mass produce steel in the normal sense of what we mean by mass production and it wasn't used intensively for civilian purposes (unlike modern steel as a construction material), but like I said the steel one is arguable. I don't mind Steel being early (representing steel weapons) as long as there are still a good range of industrial revolution techs.

 

[Schuesseled]

Again, what Osi refered too is how does one define importance. While the theory of relativity, or Newton's theory of gravity is very important in leading us into understanding about our universe. These are knowledge boosting physics, though they help us to understand how our planet evolves around the sun and why we don't simply fall off it, abritary I know it now seems once it was not known. But what has this really done for us, we are not much better off thanks to these particular discoveries than we were when we were blindly following the idea's that we are god's children and that the earth is the center of everything. Thats not to demean its importance, from a philisophical point of view, understanding how we are here and why is the oldest question of all. But it doesn't really affect our lives, we don't live longer because of it. I'm sure some physics of the Ancient Greeks or Romans or whoever helped devise devices that helped improve longivity. So what you need to ask yourself is what is more important, and what was more important at the time it was discovered. But at the end of the day all of this is irrelevant as both Modern Physics and Ancient Physics had an impact on the lives we lead today, everything should be included into civilisation if possible.

One of my main concerns is that you think the word "Physics" should not be used to name a tech of an earlier era. Why?, these discoveries were of Physics. The name should not be ignored simply because later discoveries were more important. If you want to include two physics techs, ancient physics and then modern physics as Tech titles that would be fine by me.

I appologise if you thought I was putting words in your mouth, I was merely giving an example of other important discoveries that had modern counter parts. I did not say you said these things I appologise if it came off that way.
To give another example, It's like not calling the Tech that gives roads "The Wheel" because you think the Water Wheel used as a power source in the Industrial age was a more important type of Wheel and the tech thats called "The Wheel" should be saved for a more modern wheel. If you get my jist.

As for splitting the Atom, this is what the Physics tech in Civ4 refers too. I assumed that by not wanting Physics introduced as an early tech and wanting it back as a modern tech you would want it again to be used to give the same bonuses as before. If this is not the case then fair enough. We could easily have three techs about Physics. Ancient Physics, Newtonian Physics or Gravity Theory, and Modern Physics or Atomic Theory.

As for the Mathematics reference, I was reffering to Physics. Physics after all Is a type of Mathematics. Mathematics is a broad reference it can refer from anything to counting from 1 to 10, to triginometry to Quantum Physics.

 

[Ahriman]

Again, what Osi refered too is how does one define importance

Overall impact on humanity. How much did it change our understanding of the world, how much did its practical applications change our lives.

We don't have room for every innovation ever made by mankind, so we have to pick the most important ones. For example, a single tech for medicine clearly belongs in the modern era, not the ancient era.
What were the important ancient advances in physics that aren't already covered by the masonry, construction, mathematics and engineering techs?

But what has this really done for us

The industrial revolution would have never happened without understanding classical mechanics. No steam engine, no factories, no railways.
Let alone everything that came after that.

Ask any mechanical or structural or civil engineer how they'd do if they didn't understand classical mechanics.

I'm sure some physics of the Ancient Greeks or Romans or whoever helped devise devices that helped improve longivity

Why are you sure of that? Please give examples that are MORE significant than the

Why?, these discoveries were of Physics.

In the Civ5 tech tree, Physics comes in the medieval era. What were the important medieval discovered in physics, and what practical impact did they have?

The ancient discoveries are already represented through other techs.

In Civ5, as far as we can tell, Physics gives Trebuchets. This doesn't seem out of place to you?

I did not say you said these things

I suppose next you will be telling everybody that the Ancient Roman Discoveries of Aqeducts was nothing of importance compared to Water Pipe Lines, or that Roman Road's were inconsequential compared to that of the inventions of modern motorways.

Apology accepted.

It's like not calling the Tech that gives roads "The Wheel" because you think the Water Wheel used as a power source in the Industrial age was a more important type of Wheel

Actually its exactly the same issue. Ancient discovery of a wheel (for carts etc.) had a bigger impact than industrial water-wheels. Land-based trade at any scale would have been almost impossible without wheeled vehicles, as would have carrying supplies for a major military action. Water-wheels were just one source of mechanical power.

Newtonian Physics or Gravity Theory, and Modern Physics or Atomic Theory.

I'd have no problem with these sorts of names. But I fail to see what is being represented with a medieval physics tech.

As for the Mathematics reference, I was reffering to Physics. Physics after all Is a type of Mathematics. Mathematics is a broad reference it can refer from anything to counting from 1 to 10, to triginometry to Quantum Physics.

...and is thus covered by the mathematics tech.

 

[Ositario]

and phsyik and trebuched is concerned, whell Lever, Static is just as much physik as the quantum mechaniks.

 

[Raneman]

The Tech Tree isn't complete yet. Mark my words.

 

[timtofly]

No one seems to be complaining that Asphalt Is being "laid" down in the ancient era.

 

[Schuesseled]

In Civ5, as far as we can tell, Physics gives Trebuchets. This doesn't seem out of place to you?

Not to me. In order for a trebuchet to have existd its desinger needs to have an understanding of physics.

By the way, i should point out that the offensive posts i see to have been making towards you recently are made by my brother who cant seem to be bothered to register his own account.

Personally i don't see the problem, this game is supposed to be full of big changes, is putting physics and steel into an earlier era a bad thing, not necessarily.

Especially seeing as how they are trying to condense the tech tree to take in account of no tech trading. Uranium discovery can now be included in fission and not in physics, cannons can be discovered with miltary tradition, maybe.

 

[timtofly]

Does Astronomy have 3 policy choices available? You can only choose one as your 8th and final choice. You then only have to complete 6 for a victory win.

 

[Schuesseled]

@Trebuchets

Yes these are constructs that could only exist with the understanding the of physics behind the lever. Again Osi got to the point before me. So yes this is a Physics Invention. It was covered by Engineering in Civ4, And Engineering as you say owe's everything to the Physics understood at the time.

As for Roman Physics improoving longivity. I suppose it would be in thier understanding of Physics that allowed the many various great constucts they built to sustain the first massively populated city of the world. The best example I can think of would be the Aqeduct. Which they used all over their empire along with other Inventions which drastically improoved the lifes of everybody in the Roman Empire.

Technically they could do as they did last civilisation and include Trebuchets under Engineering. But its just as correct to have them under the title Physics, as without the understanding of Physics a wonderous contraption especially for the time, they wouldn't of been able to make Trebuchets.

Physics has been used in many fields since Ancient times and it is key in the workings of many things. Especially anything hugely mechanical.

As for medicine, yes I would put this in Modern ish times, I would put the greatest medical discovery as Penicillin. Rather than some Ancient Medicinal practiceses, as I believe most of these would of been as likely to kill you as to heal you

As for the Wheel, well yes the water wheel was a poor example, but im sure you could think of another type of wheel more important than the original Invention, I would struggle to put my thumb on one, but it may very well yet exist. Though most inventions of wheels have simply been better types of wheels of great mechanisms using wheels. Just Imagine if when the wheel was invented it had been invented square :O, not sure what that has to do with what I have been saying but it came into my head and is a comical thought.

@Tim, thats because nobody cares about Asphalt , isn't that just another word for stuff roads are made out of, which technically has always existed

P.s Yes as Schuesseled says some of his posts are not his own , I will register my own account sometime. And I wouldnt say I was being rude, more arguementative perhaps .

 

[Ahriman]

No one seems to be complaining that Asphalt Is being "laid" down in the ancient era.

The road graphics are probably placeholder, if thats what you're referring to, or they haven't put all the eras in yet. Remember that road graphics change over time in Civ4.

* * *

Not to me. In order for a trebuchet to have existd its desinger needs to have an understanding of physics.

Sure, but is this the most important application of physics, ever? Was the medieval period really the biggest period of advancement in physics? Hardly - in fact just the opposite. We learned far more before and after than during.

hysics has been used in many fields since Ancient times and it is key in the workings of many things. Especially anything hugely mechanical.

Using things that involve physical principles is not the same as understanding them. You can use a lever without understanding torque. But you can't invent a steam engine without understanding pressure.

Physics tech should represent understanding.

but it may very well yet exist

Let me know if you think of one.

By the way, i should point out that the offensive posts i see to have been making towards you recently are made by my brother who cant seem to be bothered to register his own account.

The evil twin! Classic ;-)
It seemed out of character. We can return to civility.

 

[Hail]

my thoughts on the tech tree:

imho Physics, Calendar, Steel seem misplaced (e.g. too early in the tech tree)

imho apparently tech tree's compression caused some techs to be thrown out in addition to the disappearance of any techs from the social and political categories. such condensing of the tree led to several inconsistencies like Mathematics requiring Archery and Chivalry requiring Currency.

P.S. Banking requires Chivalry? gimme a break
P.S.S. always pisses me that the devs never seem to find a place for Geometry, Calculus, etc. in the tech tree

 

[Schuesseled]

@Ahriman

Schuesseled only said we were brothers, how did you know we were twin brothers, Get out of my head! (Family guy reference)

Now while you can use mechanincal objects such as a trebuchet without understanding the physics behind it, you can't invent one without understanding the physics. The soldiers using them obviously weren't physics scientists aye, but the designers did. Now while a Trebechuet isn't the best invention ever to come from the understanding of physics one can't deny that is an invention of physics from the middle ages. And this is reasoning enough to have Physics as a Tech giving you Trebuchets, Perhaps it is not the most important. But that doesn't warrant it not to be aknowledged, at the time it was an important discovery that aide'd warfare or more precisely siege warfare. The Physics behind the trebuchet allowed for longer range bombardment of a castles walls, way out of the reach of thier archers. Also Trebuchets did more damage than catapults due to the increased forces subjected to castle walls, all of this is why it is indeed in the game, the only thing questioned by you is the right to call it Physics. Which they are entitled in my humble opinion to do so.

 

[King Jason]

I thought the techtree was kind of short; but then again, I've been playing RoM with all its extra techs for so long that I forgot what the Vanilla tech-tree looked like.

It's worth noting another reason for the slimming of the tree is lack of religion. Many techs of Civ4 merely offered a religion and a wonder or two. So that right there cuts out about 5-7 techs. Civ4 launched with about 80 techs, and I've heard civ5 has about 60+, so take out the religious techs and some worker techs (farming might be innate) and you're already compensating for about 10 techs. The rest of the shortage seems to be due to compression. For example, fishing and sailing in civ4 appears to be simply Sailing in civ 5. Where, in civ4 you'd have a combination of techs that grant you 1-3 bonuses each ... in civ 5, like technologies seem to have been combined to grant all of the bonuses in one swoop, like in the fishing/sailing example I gave.

P.S. Banking requires Chivalry? gimme a break

Indeed, I'd like to see a tech beneath chivalry, that makes the tree go: Currency-> XXX -> Banking, and remove the chiv req, either having it deadend there, or have it lead to something else.