Term 8 Election - Censor

Who should serve as our next Censor ?

  • Donsig

    Votes: 6 35.3%
  • Daveshack

    Votes: 10 58.8%
  • Abstain

    Votes: 1 5.9%

  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .

ice2k4

Emperor
Joined
Feb 28, 2004
Messages
1,937
Location
Brooklyn, New York
The question should read who should serve as our next Predisent. Sorry not feeling so good when posting this so I made a few errors when copy and pasting.

Term 8 Election for the Office of the Censor

The Censor is a member of the Cabinet. The Censor is charge of all elections, including posting nominations, election polls, and validating the results of elections. The Censor is also tasked with validating all other polls, and posting and validating polls of the Citizens Assembly.


Link to Nomination Thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178942

Please vote for the citizen who you feel should serve as our Censor for the next term.

Options:

* Dosnig
* Daveshack
* Abstain


This poll has been marked private because it is an election poll.
Elections will be open for 4 days, and will close on July 31st at approximately 8:30 PM EDT (24:30 UTC).

Should they choose to write them, the candidates' platforms will appear below.
 
ravensfire said:
Let's start this off RIGHT!

Questions for the candidates:

1) How will you organize and conduct the affairs of the Office of the Censor?

According to the law, common sense, and tradition, in descending order of priority.

2) Will your procedures require the use of Public polling in Opinion polls, Referendum polls and/or Initiative polls?

Polls about individuals must be private.
Binding polls not about individuals must be public.
Non-binding polls are at the whim of the originator.

3) Do you believe that the Censor has the power to validate/invalidate Initiative polls?

The Censor's primary purpose is to manage the affairs of the Citizen's Assembly, including Assembly Floor Votes. Floor votes and Initiatives are the same thing by different names. Some people will say they are not because they have different names, but I have always held a very strong opinion that the meaning of the law is far more important than the words used to convey that meaning. One person wrote "Initiative" for a concept and another person wrote "Floor Vote", but they are the same concept.

By this logic, the Censor is required to uphold the law on polling standards, however unlike some earlier occupants of this office, I would not necessarily automatically "invalidate" a poll if the polling standards can be complied with by another means.

4) What do you believe happens to invalidated polls?

A Censor who is committed to doing the whole job and not just wielder of a rubber stamp would either correct what needs to be corrected, or repost a valid poll so that the people can have their say. An invalidated poll would most certainly not be left to "die on the vine", nor would I require the original poster to do the work of reposting.

5) Will your procedures clearly state all polling standards you will use?
Most definitely!

6) Will you use the Office of Censor to delay, stall or avoid posting or validating polls that you strongly object to, but are correctly posted?

Definitely not! I am strongly opposed to the concept of denying the people a chance to make a decision. Once the people are presented with a clear and unbiased choice, their decision must not be tampered with.

I would, however, work towards revisiting bad decisions via appropriate means, which typically would include further discussion on the matter and possibly another poll. I would not hesitate to advise officials on ways to honor the people's choice while allowing them a chance to change their mind.

7) Why do you feel that you are the superior candidate for this office?

In all my Democracy Game positions, I perform my duties with speed, accuracy, and a common sense approach. (RL permitting ;) )

I also take the straightforward common sense interpretation of our laws regarding polling, which is official == binding.

It does not matter to me whether an initiative is posted by an official (making it an "official poll" by my opponent's definition) or by a citizen (making it "not official"), what matters to me is that it is binding.

Likewise I take the simple, straightforward interpretation of Referendum vs Initiative. Referendum = "one shot", Initiative = "permanent". An official can post an initiative -- to disallow this strips that official of citizen's rights, something I'm not prepared to do.

[edit]
I also believe the Censor should perform a public service of pre-validating polls on request. Citizens who choose to use this service may submit their poll proposal to my office, and I will point out any aspect of it which conflicts with the polling standards. I will also be willing to post polls on behalf of any citizen who requests it, to reduce the chance of problems.
 
My vote is clear. I vote for Daveshack.

After this response from donsig:
donsig said:
Do you mean like I'm doing now in the judiciary? Why don't you just come out and ask the quesiton you want to ask. Afraid you'll hurt my feelings? The answer to your question is it depends. There are higher duties and obligations above and beyond those of the office one holds. I have no qualms whatsoever about not ruling on the current proposed housekeeping amendment. In doing so it highlights many flaws I see in our system that others (my esteemed opponent included) would rather sweep under the rug. The questions raised by these flaws are: how the game procedes in the absense of an official, do all three justices need to make a ruling if two concur, do we really want to allow single officials to be able to write legally binding standards about such large issues as public versus private polls and last and certainly not least, do we really want unimpeachable justices.

I have a problem with an elected official using their power to avoid a decision they don't like. There are better and certainly more appropriate ways to address the flaws donsig perceives in the ruleset. His chosen method here is both against the concepts of democracy and the rules of this game. I cannot and will not support anyone that condones such an action.

-- Ravensfire
 
Well, they can't go to poll heaven because they aren't validated. I guess they go to poll hell if they were really bad and to poll limbo if they were bad but not on purpose.

lol that deserves my vote..... oh both deserving candiates ect ect *lip service lip service*
 
ravensfire said:
My vote is clear. I vote for Daveshack.

After this response from donsig:


I have a problem with an elected official using their power to avoid a decision they don't like. There are better and certainly more appropriate ways to address the flaws donsig perceives in the ruleset. His chosen method here is both against the concepts of democracy and the rules of this game. I cannot and will not support anyone that condones such an action.

For the record, I am not using my power to avoid a decision I do not like. Like everyone else I couldn't care less about the culture department. It's something I don't see a necessary and since I have not (in many, many terms) been able to get a fair hearing on the initiatives are not official polls and private polls are ok issues AND this is only a housekeeping amendment I see no problem in letting that amendment hang.

I have tried other methods of resolving this issue. Remember the citizen's initiative I started so long ago? Shot down by a censor. I've appealed to every subsequent and been given lame defences of censorial procedures every time.
 
ice2k4 said:
The question should read who should serve as our next Predisent. Sorry not feeling so good when posting this so I made a few errors when copy and pasting.
Actually it is censor I believe...
 
donsig said:
I have tried other methods of resolving this issue. Remember the citizen's initiative I started so long ago? Shot down by a censor. I've appealed to every subsequent and been given lame defences of censorial procedures every time.

Post a private opinion poll or a public initiative and you'll get my support. :mischief:
 
DaveShack said:
I also take the straightforward common sense interpretation of our laws regarding polling, which is official == binding.

It does not matter to me whether an initiative is posted by an official (making it an "official poll" by my opponent's definition) or by a citizen (making it "not official"), what matters to me is that it is binding.

Likewise I take the simple, straightforward interpretation of Referendum vs Initiative. Referendum = "one shot", Initiative = "permanent". An official can post an initiative -- to disallow this strips that official of citizen's rights, something I'm not prepared to do.

DaveShack, look up referendum and initiative. They both have a law making meaing. The former refers to a public measure and the later to one brought by citizens. No where does it say anything about the scope of laws covered by referendums or initiatives. No where! By attaching the scope of a measure to these words in our constitution you have transferred them from their common use. You cannot do that and expect us all to understand your intent.

Add to that the fact that in previous demogames many battles were fought to ensure that citizens could post binding polls even when there was an official responsible for that area. After all that can you not see my position on this?
 
donsig said:
Add to that the fact that in previous demogames many battles were fought to ensure that citizens could post binding polls even when there was an official responsible for that area. After all that can you not see my position on this?

I was one of the initiators of the fight for the right of citizens to start binding polls over the elected official's objections. I challenged Cyc over this issue in DG3, back when most of the then-veterans thought that an elected official's control over polls in their area should be absolute.

An official can post a referendum
Anyone can post an initiative (including an official acting as a citizen)
[edit] And, who do you think actually writes most initiatives in RL? A lot of them are written by -- surprise -- legislators. ;) [/edit]

Look at the official posting an initiative this way -- Sue, a citizen with no position, wants something changed. She starts a discussion thread and Mary, the elected official for that area, happens to agree with the change. Sue has never posted a poll before and does not want this to be the first time. Mary sees that she'll have to take action if this citizen-initiated change is going to take place. So Mary posts a poll on it -- what kind of poll is it? You would automatically say it is a referendum because Mary is the official responsible. I would say Mary is a citizen and it's an initiative.
 
Not having been present at the creation of our current legal framework, what exactly is the purpose behind having two different legally defined flavours of binding poll in the first place? Surely the initiative concept renders the referendum pretty much redundant?
 
DaveShack said:
Post a private opinion poll or a public initiative and you'll get my support. :mischief:

I despise public polls and will not do this. I am not stupid and know I could have done that 3 or four terms ago. But I will not. I will happily post a citizen initiative that is a privaye poll - in fact I did that a LONG time ago but many were urged to vote against the poll simply because it was private, whether they had a problem with private polls or not. Since then I've tried (vainly, mostly due to my opponent's claiming to know exactly what is meant in our laws despite what they actually say) to point out that the Censor has no authority to validate initiatives.

So, after all these terms we still don't know the people's feelings aboutprivate polls. Let me post my private initiative poll as a private poll and encourage everyone to vote on the issue then we can all accept the results. The results (whatever they might be) can then be referred to our judiciary which can then hammer out the whole issue of validating binding polls.
 
donsig said:
Let me post my private initiative poll as a private poll and encourage everyone to vote on the issue then we can all accept the results.

Why not just make it an opinion poll? Then it can be private and the people can still vote on the issue. That's exactly what I'm planning to do anyway, just as soon as the discussion thread that I started (you could have done that all along too) has run its course. If the people want private polls to be allowed, then we can do what needs to be done in the law.
 
Eklektikos said:
Not having been present at the creation of our current legal framework, what exactly is the purpose behind having two different legally defined flavours of binding poll in the first place? Surely the initiative concept renders the referendum pretty much redundant?

The purpose was to make one temporary over the current decision and one permanent but less than an amendment to the law. The experiment hasn't really worked very well.
 
DaveShack said:
I decided we don't need to wait on the private vs public issue, so opened this opinion poll.

Vote DaveShack for Action, not just words. :D

Vote DaveShack for FAST Action. Oh, and don't forget FAST polls, too! No point in waiting around to let everyone vote, two days is enough, especially on weekends. Right DS?

Just when we start actually discussing this you go and throw up an opinion poll. Sure, get everybody's opinion now, before the discussion ends so we'll have a record of our uninformed opinion. God forbid that now that we have a proper discussion thread for this (after me harping on it for four terms) we'd actually let the discussion run its natural course and then poll it.

The quickest way to kill discussion is to post a poll and link to the poll in the discussion thread. You ought to know that by now DaveShack. Maybe you do and did this on purpose to kill the dabate simply because you don't want the flaws in your code of laws highlighted. Think about it and then wonder why participation isn't what it used to be.
 
I pretty much disagree on donsig's proposed policies at every turn (private polling, extended confirmation process for appointees), but I am a bit dismayed by DaveShack's hasty submission of a recent opinion poll when discussion was just getting started.

I will withhold my vote for now to see what else unfolds. I will likely vote for the candidate who, as Stevie Wonder (or the Chili Peps) would say, strives for the "highest ground."
 
If even one person other than my opponent votes yes in the opinion poll (that's a total of two), I'll personally drive an amendment effort to remove references to public poll requirements in the law, and let the citizens decide whether to actually change it or not. That amendment will follow the current process which requires a public poll, but if it passes then we're done with requiring public polls forever. Or at least until the people change their mind again. ;)

In exchange, I request a pledge from donsig that if he wins this election he won't attempt to use a private initiative to formally allow private initiatives.

Back to the election, the observant reader will note that an opinion poll is not currently subject to Censorial validation, or even to any polling standard. The Censor, like any other leader, must follow decisions made by the people. I believe that the Censor's procedures should be open to criticism from the people, and that the usual rules for decision making apply. If someone wants opinion polls to follow standards, elect me and suggest a referendum on the topic. The people can ask for something as long as the law doesn't say they can't.
 
DaveShack said:
If even one person other than my opponent votes yes in the opinion poll (that's a total of two), I'll personally drive an amendment effort to remove references to public poll requirements in the law

Well, as the law stands, public polls are only mandated for official polls which are quite different from initiatives. I don't know that I'd support an amendment removing all references to public polls. I have no beef with the requirement that our officials post only public polls. I just think citizens should not be so restricted.

Remember, I do not equate the words official and binding.
 
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