tesbs further flavored civilizations [development thread]

[tesb]

yes they are terraformers and they are heavily inspired by the syron, i may even name them that way.

the basics are:

a good to neutral civilization
-all units are rather weak but have the outsider promotion giving them a high bonus when fighting on outsider terrain
-the civ is highly dependent on the terrain, since their units are only competitive on their terrain and they also gain access to unique improvements that can be only build on it. regular improvements can't be build by them.
-the outsider terrain would spread inside their cultural borders, but very slow (can be speeded up by spells/ global enchantments). The worldspell terraforms all terrain inside you borders at once.
-in general it is a slow builder civilization where culture is a very important aspect
-outsider terrain has no yield except to the new civ so it can and should be used as an offensive tool (vie terraforming spells) to increase the strength of your troops and weaken the economy of your enemies
-the basic units (up to champions/longbowmen) can be build (expansive) but better troops must be summoned (with mana) through portals
-the economy is: good mana, sparse production, medium gold income and fallow
-population is gained by spawn of refugees (akin to the scions) but the % of the spawn is based on the terraformed land (the more the higher the %) and the population you already have (the more the lower the %).
-since they come from an other plane they are agnostic

 

[tesb]

melee line is complete

Spoiler :

next is the archer line.

 

[Lemminkäinen]

Sound very interesting.

What happens when you conquer their cities, though? Does the terrain revert back to normal or are they another civ that turns their home terrain into something absolutely useless that everyone loathes to find as their neighbour?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

about the Sidar, RifE has removed the Waning mechanic and replaced it with a level based immortality. I think that would be a nice addition, instead of a nice replacement, since the wane mechanic kics ass. but, the AI can't use it, so level based immortality would be great. basically, once the unit reaches lvl 6 it can choose between immortality or waning. at least that's something the AI will definitely use correctly.

one thing that sucks about it though is that it promotes warmongering. so an easy way to fix it would be to have Sidar units gain no ( or way less ) XP from fights in enemy lands, and more XP when figthing in their homeland. that will allow to keep the kickass waning mechanic, add another nice one that provides an interesting choice AND the AI can use effectively, plus also discourage a playstyle that would go against their builder nature. whatcha think?



edit: their new Grigori stuff also seems pretty good, with the homestead unique improvement and the refugees, and the animals spawning for the Doviello as well

 

[esvath]

I don't think removing Waning is the best solution to make Sidar more flavourful. Waning is the flavor of Sidar, IMHO. It's just need some AI calculation to make Waning works. To further flavorize (is it a word? flavorize?) Sidar, I gave some unique buildings etc for Sidar in my personal modmod. Some of it I robbed from tesb's.

Spoiler :

Unique Building :
College of Mists

• +4 exp
• +1 free specialist
• -25% foreign trade route yield
• +2 science, +20% science
• 20% chance give Promotion Mistwalker into unit created in city
  • Double movement in Mist features
  • 10% attack in Mist features
• Req : Library
• Req : Tech Arcane Lore

Well of Reflection

• Free Promo : Enlighted
  • FreeXP per turn : 1
  • Promotion Immune : Desperation, Enraged, Feeblemind
  • Exp chance : 100%
• No unhappiness
• +20% GPP
• +8 exp
• 1 free tech on completion
• +4 science, +100% science
• +1 happiness from Library
• -100 foreign trade route yield
• Req : 4 College of Mists
• Req : Tech Arcane Lore
• National Wonder

Mist Features : as tesb's

Unique Unit :
Mistwalker (Druid UU)

• Start with : Channeling 2, Channeling 3, Mistborn, Shadow 1
• Affinity : +1 Shadow

Unique Spell :

• Conjure Mist
  • Req : Promotion Channeling 2, Promotion Mistborn, Unitcombat_Adept.
  • Create Mist features.
• ???
  • Req : Promotion Channeling 3, Promotion Mistborn, Unitcombat_Adept.
  • Effect ???

In my view, this will make Sidar as a secluded, secretive civ. They wage war only when they have to, their homeland or their knowledge is threathened. The Sidar spent majority of their time to study, and to meditate in the Well of Reflection, gaining perfection (in their view) and becoming Shade. Thus, no more warmongering to generate Shade.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

in fact I don't want to remove Waning, I want to add another option you can choose instead of it for every unit that reaches level 6

that addresses a huge problem of the AI not being able to use it. but another problem is that such a good mechanic encourages a playstyle very weird for the Sidar. hence, more XP when defending and less XP when attacking to encourage isolationism

true immortality would probably be too powerful at lvl 6 and make shades worse in comparison, so I guess best thing would be one shot immortality at level 6 and true immortality later.

 

[Valkrionn]

about the Sidar, RifE has removed the Waning mechanic and replaced it with a level based immortality. I think that would be a nice addition, instead of a nice replacement, since the wane mechanic kics ass. but, the AI can't use it, so level based immortality would be great. basically, once the unit reaches lvl 6 it can choose between immortality or waning. at least that's something the AI will definitely use correctly.

Bah. I despise waning. I'll explain below.

one thing that sucks about it though is that it promotes warmongering. so an easy way to fix it would be to have Sidar units gain no ( or way less ) XP from fights in enemy lands, and more XP when figthing in their homeland. that will allow to keep the kickass waning mechanic, add another nice one that provides an interesting choice AND the AI can use effectively, plus also discourage a playstyle that would go against their builder nature. whatcha think?

Frankly, waning promotes warmongering far more, in a stupidly overpowered, unintuitive way that borks the AI. It encourages going out and waging war on everything, in order to gain the level six units that you can then sacrifice (which runs against the rest of FfH promoting taking care of your high level units) to gain a specialist. It rapidly builds to a steamroll, which is why the Sidar were the most commonly chosen civ for an immortal OCC game.

Basically... It's just a terrible mechanic.

edit: their new Grigori stuff also seems pretty good, with the homestead unique improvement and the refugees, and the animals spawning for the Doviello as well

You're welcome to use any of it, so long as the RifE team is given credit.

I don't think removing Waning is the best solution to make Sidar more flavourful. Waning is the flavor of Sidar, IMHO. It's just need some AI calculation to make Waning works. To further flavorize (is it a word? flavorize?) Sidar, I gave some unique buildings etc for Sidar in my personal modmod. Some of it I robbed from tesb's.

Spoiler :

Unique Building :
College of Mists

• +4 exp
• +1 free specialist
• -25% foreign trade route yield
• +2 science, +20% science
• 20% chance give Promotion Mistwalker into unit created in city
  • Double movement in Mist features
  • 10% attack in Mist features
• Req : Library
• Req : Tech Arcane Lore

Well of Reflection

• Free Promo : Enlighted
  • FreeXP per turn : 1
  • Promotion Immune : Desperation, Enraged, Feeblemind
  • Exp chance : 100%
• No unhappiness
• +20% GPP
• +8 exp
• 1 free tech on completion
• +4 science, +100% science
• +1 happiness from Library
• -100 foreign trade route yield
• Req : 4 College of Mists
• Req : Tech Arcane Lore
• National Wonder

Mist Features : as tesb's

Unique Unit :
Mistwalker (Druid UU)

• Start with : Channeling 2, Channeling 3, Mistborn, Shadow 1
• Affinity : +1 Shadow

Unique Spell :

• Conjure Mist
  • Req : Promotion Channeling 2, Promotion Mistborn, Unitcombat_Adept.
  • Create Mist features.
• ???
  • Req : Promotion Channeling 3, Promotion Mistborn, Unitcombat_Adept.
  • Effect ???

In my view, this will make Sidar as a secluded, secretive civ. They wage war only when they have to, their homeland or their knowledge is threathened. The Sidar spent majority of their time to study, and to meditate in the Well of Reflection, gaining perfection (in their view) and becoming Shade. Thus, no more warmongering to generate Shade.

The AI is actually blocked from waning. It's not even just that it doesn't understand it, it is incapable of performing the action.

Anyway: I may have to steal your Mistwalker unit.

in fact I don't want to remove Waning, I want to add another option you can choose instead of it for every unit that reaches level 6

that addresses a huge problem of the AI not being able to use it. but another problem is that such a good mechanic encourages a playstyle very weird for the Sidar. hence, more XP when defending and less XP when attacking to encourage isolationism

true immortality would probably be too powerful at lvl 6 and make shades worse in comparison, so I guess best thing would be one shot immortality at level 6 and true immortality later.

Why not simply a chance each turn to be immortal, as it is supposed to be in RifE? Currently broken, but you can see it in Orbis just fine. That's where it comes from. Keeps it from being too strong immediately, but it gains strength as you level.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

on your last point, I just don't like such an important mechanic to be luck based, honestly

however, I do agree that the encouraging warmongering aspect is lame. changing how XP is gained for the Sidar accordingly seems like the simplest and most effective solution

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

btw Valk, how does your method NOT encourage warmongering? you're still giving a promotion that's very useful in combat, and the mechanic is based on XP, which you get from combat. doesn't this still translate to "kill stuff if you want goodies" ?

 

[Valkrionn]

on your last point, I just don't like such an important mechanic to be luck based, honestly

however, I do agree that the encouraging warmongering aspect is lame. changing how XP is gained for the Sidar accordingly seems like the simplest and most effective solution

This is true, but it's also much more powerful than a single one-time use effect at level 6. Even if it is luck based, it's also more persistent.

I'm not sure I'd give them too much of a malus outside of their borders, but a boost within their own (and particularly mist) could be interesting.

btw Valk, how does your method NOT encourage warmongering? you're still giving a promotion that's very useful in combat, and the mechanic is based on XP, which you get from combat. doesn't this still translate to "kill stuff if you want goodies" ?

Never said it didn't. Just doesn't encourage it to the same extent. You are able to better preserve your high-xp units is all; it's not a necessity, like Shading.

Also, when combined with the Mist I think it gives them a very isolationist, defender feel.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

why not give them a malus outside their borders?

look, I kinda dislike playing as the Sidar because I grow attached to my high level units and don't want to sacrifice them. but the mechanic is sound, and the fact that it goes against the basic FFH rule of preserve high lvl units is what makes it so good imho. it's really, really unique. all the people who enjoyed it are going to dislike the axe A LOT. even if I don't like it myself, I think it should be preserved as it's the defining Sidar mechanic.

that said, the fact that the AI can't understand it is a huge drawback. having Level Based Immortality as an option instead of Waning, an option that the AI WILL use effectively, is excellent. even better if the AI could be thaught to use Waning of course, but while we wait immortality fits the Sidar and gives the player a nice choice of "do I keep my uberunit, or turn it into a shade?" that's really appealing.

and in all this, all that's needed to keep the current Wane mechanic AND add your system, WITHOUT encouraging them to be warmongers, is the simplest solution imho: nerf the XP they gain when fighting inside enemy culture, and possibly boost the XP they get into their own culture to compensate. that way you can have the cake and eat it too

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

oh yeah, almost forgot! another thing that the Sidar really need is for the Divided Soul mechanic to carry over on units after the Divided Soul itself, it sucks to lose it as you get stronger recon!

 

[Neomega]

oh yeah, almost forgot! another thing that the Sidar really need is for the Divided Soul mechanic to carry over on units after the Divided Soul itself, it sucks to lose it as you get stronger recon!

no, please no.

I like the DS as they are. Having a ranger DS is just overpowered. A well promoted DS is still a very powerful assassin, even in the late game.

 

[Valkrionn]

why not give them a malus outside their borders?

look, I kinda dislike playing as the Sidar because I grow attached to my high level units and don't want to sacrifice them. but the mechanic is sound, and the fact that it goes against the basic FFH rule of preserve high lvl units is what makes it so good imho. it's really, really unique. all the people who enjoyed it are going to dislike the axe A LOT. even if I don't like it myself, I think it should be preserved as it's the defining Sidar mechanic.

that said, the fact that the AI can't understand it is a huge drawback. having Level Based Immortality as an option instead of Waning, an option that the AI WILL use effectively, is excellent. even better if the AI could be thaught to use Waning of course, but while we wait immortality fits the Sidar and gives the player a nice choice of "do I keep my uberunit, or turn it into a shade?" that's really appealing.

and in all this, all that's needed to keep the current Wane mechanic AND add your system, WITHOUT encouraging them to be warmongers, is the simplest solution imho: nerf the XP they gain when fighting inside enemy culture, and possibly boost the XP they get into their own culture to compensate. that way you can have the cake and eat it too

I didn't say don't give them a malus, just not a strong one. I typically try to avoid maluses, they have a much different feel for a player than a buff... Even if both take a unit to the same exact stats.

I disagree about the mechanic being sound, for the reasons I've already stated. It is too strong, too exploitable, too out of character for the game.

That said, I can see why you'd like both. Generally a good way to do it. One thing I considered (and am still sort-of considering, I haven't touched the Sidar in RifE yet so there are still a few things to be added) was to allow a changed version of shading, or the immortality. Would work like this:

1. At level 6, a unit can 'Shade'. This functions more like the Divided Soul than the FfH shade; The caster remains alive. The shade can then settle as one of a group of new Great Specialists which grant only a single yield or two.
2. At level 6, a unit can take the "Greater Shade" promotion. This carries the immortality effect.

This would mean that either way the unit will remain alive (one of my issues) and make it far more balanced (other issue). I still don't particularly like it... But there are many players who do.

oh yeah, almost forgot! another thing that the Sidar really need is for the Divided Soul mechanic to carry over on units after the Divided Soul itself, it sucks to lose it as you get stronger recon!

I completely agree, and that's already how it works in RifE.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well after everyone has stated their opinion, we just have to wait and see what Sephi's is on this one. I trust his judgment, even though we disagree sometimes

 

[tesb]

you can do another thing then waning but it works similiar to it and the ai woud be able to use it:
lvl 6+ units simply would give the city they are stationed in a bonus, not unlike the mentats from dune wars. they would autoacquire a promotion on lvl 6 that give the city some boni.

1) it no longer requires you to sacrifice the unit
2) it is passive, i.e. less micro
3) it discourages you from waging war, or at least to loose those units or even leave the city with them

but nice ideas so far keep them coming
i don't know sephis opinion on this, but i prefer to make new unique stuff instead of merging it directly from other mods. basically because i like to create my own ideas and there is probalby a bit of pride involved if i am honest. so i personally am unwilling to directly 'steal stuff' at least i want to touch it, warp it, put my fingerprint on it (i guess someone would say defile it, if they see what i do with their stuff )

 

[Valkrionn]

you can do another thing then waning but it works similiar to it and the ai woud be able to use it:
lvl 6+ units simply would give the city they are stationed on a bonus, not unlike the mentats from dune wars. they would autoacquire a promotion on lvl 6 that give the city some boni.

1) it no longer requires you to sacrifice the unit
2) it is passive, i.e. less micro
3) it discourages you from waging war, or at least to loose that units or even leave the city

That's not a bad way to do it, actually. I keep forgetting the cityeffect tags.

 

[JujZe]

You are doing amazing job as usual tesb!
I hope you have something funny for the Infernals too, its one of my favourite civs

 

[tesb]

You are doing amazing job as usual tesb!
I hope you have something funny for the Infernals too, its one of my favourite civs

thank, you! i don't know if i change the infernal, since this new civilization is basically doing what i intended with the infernals.


here are the hero + arcane line and the ranged line (they will not have arquebusiers or crossbows):

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

the only units remaining are mounted and the recon line.

 

[esvath]

While the units are marvelous as usual, the arcane line is too Svartalfar-ish IMO. Maybe you could change the weapons into wands? Better, crystalline wands! With glowing effect too, please? And it would be very cool if the Archmage uses grenadier's animation but instead of bombs, she juggles lightning balls.