The 19th Century Europe Mod

[Shqype]

OK, that makes more sense now. Serbia did play a large role (at least in the start) of World War I as it was "the straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak.

I thought you were maybe going for complexity, in which case I'de say the Albanians would be a better choice. Within this time period for your mod the Albanians rebelled against the Ottoman Empire in various rebellions, lost land to Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, and Greece after the 1878 Treaty of Berlin (and refused to give those lands up without a fight, forcing Britain and the Great Powers to send troops and naval blockades against the Albanians to hand over the ceded territories), again rebelled against the Ottomans in the early 1900s and won back land resulting in the declaration of war from Montenegro/Serbia and the start of the Balkan Wars, resulting in the creation of the modern state of Albania, etc. Given the various complexities of the groups during this time it would not be easy to accurately portray the situation, however.

Serbia makes sense in the context of World War I, but that is pretty much their only viable use. A "Balkan Minors" conglomeration civ doesn't work in my opinion because of myriad of groups and diverse loyalties that faction attempts to simplify and combine, but cannot, as many of them conflict (Serbia and Montegro with Albania, for example).

In the final analysis I would say that Warlords shouldn't be too far from release, and with that a civ-limit fix should (hopefully) arrive as well. If you used that addition in this mod, then you could have Serbians and Albanians, and can more accurately portray the clashes that went on between those two peoples during that time. Because of the very interesting things that happened with the Albanians during this time, I feel it would add a fun factor to the mod and make for nice historical flavor. There are so many events that can be scripted in in relation to this that the overall quality would improve.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

... There are so many events that can be scripted in in relation to this that the overall quality would improve.

Thanks for the feedback... I think I'll stick with Serbia for now, just because it is more widely known and I know more about it. But, if/when I pick up a copy of Warlords, I'll put the other Balkan states in. The history of the Balkans is the weakest part of my European history, so I always need help with that area

 

[Shqype]

Fair enough. Just ask when you want to learn: I've got loads and loads of information about many things you may want to know, and can even give you sources from various viewpoints so you learn more than one perspective. This aspect of European history may be your weakest, but it's my strongest

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

This aspect of European history may be your weakest, but it's my strongest

That's what I figured

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

Wow this mod looks great. I'm really looking forward to it!

 

[dh_epic]

In the tradition of keeping it simple, I think 5 ideologies is more than enough

@All
Here's a chart of the ideologies and the civics they may select...

I'll put it on the first post, as well. It's open for discussion, so sound off if something doesn't look right or I screwed up... it's a lot easier to change now than later .

For the sake of game balance, you might want to take away a few options from the Socialists and add one to the Communists.

Imperialism would make a good addition to Communists (despite being vocally opposed to the imperialism of Capitalism, they believed the solution was "Socialism Everywhere").

As for nerfing the Socialists, dropping Utopianism would make sense because Socialism is considered a "transitional" state, or at least a compromise. And you could probably drop Constitutional Monarchy too, since they probably wouldn't tolerate a nobility of any kind.

That would put everyone at an even 15.

 

[rumbold]

Sorry if I'm not understanding correctly, but with Ideology, will the AI be smart enough to recognize and work toward the ideology that would fit them best at the given state of time and their empire? Or is that something that is going to be hardcoded like a trait? Or will it be more like a religion, where they will just go with whatever is most prominent in their civ?

Will an AI with Socialist leaning ideology recognize that, once out of an empire expanding war, they need to make money and that Laissez-Faire would help them the most and that they would need to build the politicians/buildings that would help promote that ideology to facilitate that move?

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

@dh_epic
Good suggestions, I'll make those changes to socailism, i.e. substracting Con. Monarchy and Utopianism.

But, I'm wary of adding imperialism to communism. Imperialism in this sense is the Capitalist Imperialism which was exactly what the left of the 19th century was opposed to, despite the worldwide scope of the workers' state. In game terms, it adds the following: no maintenance from city distance (worldwide scope), bonus building colonies (colonialism), and extra unit experience (militarism). Since the left was anti-colonial and anti-militarism, I don't think this is a good fit for the communist ideology.

Perhaps the world-wide scope of the workers' state, i.e. the worldwide scope of it, can somehow be present in the Proletarian Dictatorship civic, i.e. giving it the no mainenane from city distance (representative of worldwide scope) too?

Thanks for the input

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

@rumbold
The AI will handle ideology like religion. Unfortunately, as with adding any complex stuff... the AI won't be able to handle it with the ueber efficiency and strategic adaptation that a player would. No AI could ever do that with anything. Currently, the AI can't even to the stategically right things in vanilla. Hence, cheats and helps.

This is where the quasi-historical focus becomes and importate game tool. To accomodate for AI stupidity, historical events will be added, giving the AI general boundries within which to operate and within which it'll be able to make right decisions. The outcome will be more historical than "strategically optimal," but then hey, just play on higher difficulty levels where the AI gets more cheats, I mean, um... strategic oppurtunism. Also, remember that a focus is more on "historicism" and "flavor" than on "best strategy" in this mod. It took a while for all the European countries to adopt the "most efficient civics" and this will be reflected.

 

[Ranbir]

I like this, but it really just makes me ache to have the Jules Verne mod again.

I'm sure some of you must remember that from Civ2.

 

[Aquilius]

How will you realize the german unification? Will it be implented? If yes, how can it be scripted and for what time in the game? Just alliances or is it somehow possible to merge two or more civs into one during the game. WWI would not be very nice with three different german factions. If the player is one of these three, he should be able to control the other two completly. I don't two stupid AIs to mess up my war business This point of view would obsolete alliances and naval states.
It should also be possible that the game developement decides if the unification should happen or not. With a still scattered Germany, WWI presumably would not have happened.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

@Ranbir
I don't remember that... but then, I didn't play mods on Civ 2.

@Hardner
Germany and Italian unitifation will be easily done. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to drop two civs in order to do it (I'm thinking Bavaria and Serbia - Bavaria will just go to German Minor States and Serbia will just go to Ottoman Empire), until >18 civs is possible. Basically, the civs Germany and Italy will be "waiting in the wings" until the conditions for unification are fulfilled by the proper civ(s), i.e. Prussia in the case of Germany and Sardinia or Two Sicilies in the case of Italy. Once these conditions are fulfilled, the civs waiting in the wings will take over all the corresponding units and cities and, if the human was playing them, the human player will be switched to this civ. It's pretty easy with python, really, and the only drawback is that I have to cut two civs (but I think it's worth it).

There is a changeciv funtion that jdog5000 made, but it doesn't change the flags. The method outlined above will change the flags.

So, then the question becomes, what are the conditions for unification?
Here's some ideas, but I'll need some input for the final product. There may also be multiple routes to unification. These are all easily scriptable events.

German Unification:
Method #1 Prussia controls X number of the German Cities from the German Minor States --> forced unification.
Method #2 Franco-Prussian War. Prussia is winning a war with France. A Franco-Prussian war event will fire in 1870, and if Prussia fulfilles the "winning the war" requirements by a certain deadline... the German Minor States move for Empire. Def'n of "winning a war" for this case 1) France controlls no traditional German cities AND 2) Prussia controlls at least 1-2 traditional French cities. (Specifics need polishing, feedback please).
Method #3 For the AI, have a unifying event fire in 1871.

Italy
Method #1 Sardinia or the Two Sicilies have to liberate the other Italian cities from Austria and take X number of each other's towns in war.
Method #2 For the AI, have a unifying event fire in 1861.

 

[rumbold]

I like this, but it really just makes me ache to have the Jules Verne mod again.

I'm sure some of you must remember that from Civ2.

Sounds very familiar - but can't for the life of me remember it...

 

[dh_epic]

@dh_epic
Good suggestions, I'll make those changes to socailism, i.e. substracting Con. Monarchy and Utopianism.

But, I'm wary of adding imperialism to communism.

I see your point about Communism and Imperialism -- in that Imperialism isn't about building a global power, but actually about militarism and so on. With that said, though, the Communists could probably use access to one more civic to balance the number of choices. The only other apparant option would be Nationalism -- which is a bit of a stretch, but not totally senseless.

Otherwise, maybe one of the Civics needs to be renamed / tweaked / stretched.

(Or just accept that Communists will have fewer choices -- I think that's how Communists operate anyway.)

 

[Leif]

Once again Arbitraryguy, you're doing excellent things.
My guess as for the two new 'political' religions would be anarchist and fascist.

As someone who takes being called a Red as a complement, I think it would be important to demonstrait that a collectivized economy isn't enough to create a worker's state, and that giving too much power to too few only creates more inequality, Imperialism should be included. To balence things out at 15, and to fufill those who want to create more of a 'state capitalist' society out of a communist one (Ie, adding in game options to show that direct contradictions of philosophy may occur when the people trust their leaders too much.)

Also, I think that Socialists should be able to keep utopianism and drop 'political religion'. While I believe that doing what Jesus said leads more to Socialism than many would believe, Christians (or Muslims) would have a greater respect for indivudial religious beliefs. Socialism has been called the way of the future, 'both scientific and utopic',....etc.
Nietzsche put Christians and Socialists in the same boat as for a belief in helping every human, but he didn't say they were the same thing. (Correct me If I've indirectly misquoted him).

Nationalism might work too.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

@dh_epic
I think it would be okay to leave the communists with one less civic, last time I counted the reactionaries do as well. I find this fitting for the two ends of the specturm (in this model).

Leif
Thanks. You bring up some good points. I can really go either way with a lot of them, especially if Socialism should have Utopianism or not. I dunno, could be either way (I'd lean towards them having it, maybe I'll switch again... nothing is finalized). Again, I'm not sure if it's that important for all the ideologies to have the same number of choices... I think quality would trump quantity, but I could be wrong.

As for the worker's state... here, it's not just represented by a planned collective economy. The government choice matters as well. Yes, the planned economy is there, but the left parties can go military dictatorship (for a corrupt, worker's state gone wrong) or with the dictatorship of the proletariat, a la Paris Commune (worker's state gone right), for their governments. They can also set the "machine politics" civic, which represents political corruption, favoritism, cronyism, etc. Communists can also pick "rule by decree," which itself is repressive (involves pop rushing). They can also choose social order over social equality as their social policy. I believe that the the current setup already allows for a wide variety of socialist states, ranging from the worker's democracy to the worker's democracy in name only.

I don't know what focus group came up with the name "Dictatorship of the Proletariat," but I use it here how I think Marx meant it. Here, it is used to represent a government in which the proletariat has taken full control of the political system, engauges in socializing the means of production, and suppresses capitalist counterrevolution. It's more of a "true" worker's democracy... think the government of the Paris Commune instead of Lenin's Soviet Union. Hope this doesn't expose my ideological bias .

Perhaps "military juanta" should be renamed so as to represent non-military dictatorships as well (e.g. Lenin)... maybe "presidential dictatorship" as in Victoria?

Also, by "political religion", I don't mean politics using religion as a means to an end. Here, I use it to mean politics reaching a religion-like status... i.e., a state where people are caught up in the ideology as if it were a religion. Pehaps "dogmatic politics" or "political purity" would be a more apt name so people wouldn't get confused? It's a powerful civic, so I think all should have access to it (and, indeed, I think it is fitting that all do).

@All
Thanks for the feedback everyone! I appreciate all ideas, suggestions, etc...

 

[Ranbir]

It was in the fantastic worlds pack. Basically, the setting was 19th Century world, but featured all the aspects of Verne's world to spicen it up. That secret organisation. The Nautilus was roaming the sea and you could try and find it with your ships.

All at the same time, managing the British Empire, or French or German, whichever civ you chose.

Still, I'm interested in this time anyway, and be nice to have a game just focusing on Empire management. Look forward to interesting gameplay here! Monopolizing trade and all that hoo-hah.

Ooh ooh! Even have a Zulu event of like, dozens of Zulu warrior units or something and you having to stop them.

 

[Leif]

It makes me very happy to know that people understand what 'dictatorship of the proletariat' means. I suppose in the end alot of things could indeed go several different ways, but overall the game will play well IMO.

If you have been showing political opinions in your posts and games I've completely agreed with them.

 

[Wei-Yan]

@Ranbir
I don't remember that... but then, I didn't play mods on Civ 2.

@Hardner
Germany and Italian unitifation will be easily done. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to drop two civs in order to do it (I'm thinking Bavaria and Serbia - Bavaria will just go to German Minor States and Serbia will just go to Ottoman Empire), until >18 civs is possible. Basically, the civs Germany and Italy will be "waiting in the wings" until the conditions for unification are fulfilled by the proper civ(s), i.e. Prussia in the case of Germany and Sardinia or Two Sicilies in the case of Italy. Once these conditions are fulfilled, the civs waiting in the wings will take over all the corresponding units and cities and, if the human was playing them, the human player will be switched to this civ. It's pretty easy with python, really, and the only drawback is that I have to cut two civs (but I think it's worth it).

There is a changeciv funtion that jdog5000 made, but it doesn't change the flags. The method outlined above will change the flags.

So, then the question becomes, what are the conditions for unification?
Here's some ideas, but I'll need some input for the final product. There may also be multiple routes to unification. These are all easily scriptable events.

German Unification:
Method #1 Prussia controls X number of the German Cities from the German Minor States --> forced unification.
Method #2 Franco-Prussian War. Prussia is winning a war with France. A Franco-Prussian war event will fire in 1870, and if Prussia fulfilles the "winning the war" requirements by a certain deadline... the German Minor States move for Empire. Def'n of "winning a war" for this case 1) France controlls no traditional German cities AND 2) Prussia controlls at least 1-2 traditional French cities. (Specifics need polishing, feedback please).
Method #3 For the AI, have a unifying event fire in 1871.

Italy
Method #1 Sardinia or the Two Sicilies have to liberate the other Italian cities from Austria and take X number of each other's towns in war.
Method #2 For the AI, have a unifying event fire in 1861.

method 2 gets my vote

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

method 2 gets my vote

I think it will work very nicely.