The AI cheats! (Possible spoiler alert)
- Thread starter Askthepizzaguy
- Start date
I got curious and checked it out it seems that Noble is the most "fair" level.
This is from Beyond the sword XML and the numbers will be different if you are using warlords.
Spoiler :
Here we can see that the AI grows and research as good as the player. Starts with nothing extra. We have some barbarian bonuses as a player we get 40% bonus vs animals while the AI get a 70% bonus. We get 10% vs barbarians while the AI gets 40%, Ai workers work as fast as ours. less inflation and less unit supply cost for the player. Less maintenance for cities and distance to palace for the player. The game is still more forgiving towards the player still.
Now for the AI economic bonuses on noble
Spoiler :
So what can we make out of this?. The HUGE economical bonuses the AI gets on noble are...
only pays 35% supply for units (that is when the AI's unit are away from home)
uppgrade its units for 30% of cost
only have 70% inflation
and finally only suffer from 70% war weariness
I cant find anything that tells me that the AI gets bonuses for city upkeep etc at this level at all.
I think you have it wrong if you're refering to this line in the XML (settler).
<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>45</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>40</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
It means that YOU as the player only pay 45% of city upkeep and only 40% distance maintenance. not the AI. If you check the diety setting for the same line it's
<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>100</iDistanceMaintenancePercent> (diety)
<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>100</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
That means you have to pay full maintenance for cities.
Thanks a lot Ankh. I was under this impression from my hovering over the XML files, but i don't really enjoy reading through tons of cramped variable names, so i didn't really take the time to go in-depth.
People might indeed, sometimes, be confusing the bonuses the human gets, and the ones the AI gets.
As far as the Noble bonuses are concerned, i don't think it's unfair to have the AI pay less to upgrade. After all, it cannot have the anticipation capacity that we have.
People might indeed, sometimes, be confusing the bonuses the human gets, and the ones the AI gets.
As far as the Noble bonuses are concerned, i don't think it's unfair to have the AI pay less to upgrade. After all, it cannot have the anticipation capacity that we have.
If you are correct then the human on noble pays only 30% from the upkeep. I saw those numbers are 35% and 30% for the noble level. Which cannot be true and is not true. If the human players spams the cities as the AI spams he will be broke.
The fact is the AI player is able to build seemingly unlimited number of cities everywhere a free tile remains. Maybe we are looking at different numbers.
The numbers for noble
<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>75</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>70</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
So on noble level the human player has a 25% discount on distance maintenance and a 30% discount on number of cities. That means you have to pay 70% percent.
Were do you get that 30% from?, seems like you're reading the numbers wrong.
This is the end of the "noble" (Warlords):
<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>35</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
<iAIUnitUpgradePercent>30</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
<iAIInflationPercent>70</iAIInflationPercent>
<iAIWarWearinessPercent>70</iAIWarWearinessPercent>
<iAIPerEraModifier>0</iAIPerEraModifier>
Ths is for AI and I think I saw similar lines for the earlier difficulties.
Those are the bonuses AI have on noble although I don't know what exactly unitsupplypercent means. Is it the upkeep for all units or only for units outside own territories.
Everything other seems at 100 percents besides the usual bonuses against barbs and free scouts and such.
Edit:
You seems correct but on monarch (I play monarch) I see this line:
<iUnitCostPercent>70</iUnitCostPercent>
There is absolutely no way the human palyer on monarch to have 70% bonus on units. Actually I spied on the AI and the costs of units, buildings and food is 20% less then the human or the units, building and food costs only 80% for the AI.
<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>35</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
<iAIUnitUpgradePercent>30</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
<iAIInflationPercent>70</iAIInflationPercent>
<iAIWarWearinessPercent>70</iAIWarWearinessPercent>
<iAIPerEraModifier>0</iAIPerEraModifier>
Ths is for AI and I think I saw similar lines for the earlier difficulties.
Those are the bonuses AI have on noble although I don't know what exactly unitsupplypercent means. Is it the upkeep for all units or only for units outside own territories.
Everything other seems at 100 percents besides the usual bonuses against barbs and free scouts and such.
Edit:
You seems correct but on monarch (I play monarch) I see this line:
<iUnitCostPercent>70</iUnitCostPercent>
There is absolutely no way the human palyer on monarch to have 70% bonus on units. Actually I spied on the AI and the costs of units, buildings and food is 20% less then the human or the units, building and food costs only 80% for the AI.
The handicap numbers are changed for BTS. They drastically nerfed the AI bonuses from Warlords to BTS. Thats why a difficulty level on warlords can feel somewhat easier on BTS.
I will edit that the XML i posted earlier is from BTS to avoid confusion.
I saw on BTS forum the AI bonuses are changed although I don't play BTS and don't know what exactly this changes in the game. But I hope this means they really did some better AI. Will wait coupe of months untill all the bugs and rebalances and such are cleaned and will get BTS. For now I am sticking with Warlords - it almost bugsfree already.
You are STILL reading the numbers wrong. <iUnitCostPercent>70</iUnitCostPercent> is NOT an 70% bonus on production it means that your units only cost 70% (0.70) in upkeep. On diety when the line is <iUnitCostPercent>100</iUnitCostPercent> and now the units will cost 100% (1.00) costing you more money and clearly increasing the difficulty.
70% doesn't mean you have a "70% bonus", it means you only pay 70% of the cost, ie you have a 30% discount.
Real Cost = Base Cost * 0.7
EDIT: damn, too slow again
Just another note to clear two similiar costs:
<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>35</iAIUnitSupplyPercent> Is the discount the AI have on the amount of money spent on units in enemy territory.
<iAIUnitCostPercent>100</iAIUnitCostPercent> Is the discount the AI have on the amount of money spent on unit upkeep.
So reading the Noble bonuses again we see that on noble the AI is equal in military upkeep as well and only get a heavy bonus when his troops are away from home (attacking).
<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>35</iAIUnitSupplyPercent> Is the discount the AI have on the amount of money spent on units in enemy territory.
<iAIUnitCostPercent>100</iAIUnitCostPercent> Is the discount the AI have on the amount of money spent on unit upkeep.
So reading the Noble bonuses again we see that on noble the AI is equal in military upkeep as well and only get a heavy bonus when his troops are away from home (attacking).
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
Nobody's ever claimed that the AI was smarter at higher difficulty levels, just that the AI was harder. The various bonuses and discounts the AI gets are simply a method to increase difficulty -- and a much simpler method than somehow programming an AI that could be "scalably smarter." This isn't "cheating," and revealing this on this forum isn't a spoiler. It's simply Firaxis' way of simulating a smarter AI and increasing the challenge.
And ultimately, does it matter why the AI is able to get an assault stack on your borders at 1000 BC? The fact is that you have to deal with it, and it's irrelevant whether the AI's advantage is due to strategy programming or a mathematical advantage given it by the difficulty level.
And ultimately, does it matter why the AI is able to get an assault stack on your borders at 1000 BC? The fact is that you have to deal with it, and it's irrelevant whether the AI's advantage is due to strategy programming or a mathematical advantage given it by the difficulty level.
70% doesn't mean you have a "70% bonus", it means you only pay 70% of the cost, ie you have a 30% discount.
Real Cost = Base Cost * 0.7
EDIT: damn, too slow again
No, I don't have 30% discount. It is the AI on Monarch (Warlords - spies verified) have 20% discount on food, Wonders and buildings. So this 70% mean something else.
Edit: On monarch my buildings cost exactly as much as they are listed in the Civpedia. When checking with the spies the AI building costs 20% less lited in the civpedia. Not sure about the percentage for the food, but I assumed it is 20% less too. A AI city size 18 needs much less food to grow then my city size 18.
MrCynical
Deity
@Handel:
Firstly a quick lesson in reading the XML file. The unitcostpercent line indicates the modification applied to base unit upkeep costs for all players, both human and AI. At Monarch, base unit costs are only at 70% of the maximum for both human and AI (they're only 100% at deity). The AIUnitCostPercent line is the additional percentage modifier the AI receives, which is applied to that base cost. At Noble plus, this modifier is 100%, i.e. the AI pays exactly the same amount for unit upkeep as humans. This can be easily verified in worldbuilder.
Not all of the AI unit modifiers are set up to have no effect on noble; as I've said the AI receives a few small bonuses. It receives a reduction of 70% to unit supply costs (applied only to units outside your territory, and usually trivial). It gets a 70% bonus to unit upgrade costs. It gets 30% less war weariness and inflation (those these are much less relevant in Warlords than BtS). It gets a slightly higher bonus than the human player against barbs. It gets a -1 diplomatic modifier to the human player. It gets 10 free hammers at the start. That's it, period.
Firstly a quick lesson in reading the XML file. The unitcostpercent line indicates the modification applied to base unit upkeep costs for all players, both human and AI. At Monarch, base unit costs are only at 70% of the maximum for both human and AI (they're only 100% at deity). The AIUnitCostPercent line is the additional percentage modifier the AI receives, which is applied to that base cost. At Noble plus, this modifier is 100%, i.e. the AI pays exactly the same amount for unit upkeep as humans. This can be easily verified in worldbuilder.
Not all of the AI unit modifiers are set up to have no effect on noble; as I've said the AI receives a few small bonuses. It receives a reduction of 70% to unit supply costs (applied only to units outside your territory, and usually trivial). It gets a 70% bonus to unit upgrade costs. It gets 30% less war weariness and inflation (those these are much less relevant in Warlords than BtS). It gets a slightly higher bonus than the human player against barbs. It gets a -1 diplomatic modifier to the human player. It gets 10 free hammers at the start. That's it, period.
lutzj
The Last Thing You See
Almost all video games alter difficulty that way. It's just more subtle. In a shooter, for instance, the AI enemies may get extra health or ammo or something on harder levels. It's harder to cover that kind of thing up in something as straightforward and simple as Civ 4's early game
Actually I don't care for the AI bonuses. As someone said in every computer game the AI gets bonuses.
What I am against it is the city spamming. I am very angry when the AI declares a war just to be able to smugle a single galley and to build a city on the tundra where they saw a free tile in my back. In one of my games there is a group of 4 islands far ways from the large lands. On one island are 2 tiles and there is 1 city. The other island is 3x1 tiles one of which is a mountain and there is one city. The third island is 4x1 tiles and there are 2 cities. The larger island is... well, larger and there are (for now) 5 cities and 2 barbarians cities.
The idea Firaxis was promoting is new economic rules makes the city spamming inprofitable and thus impossible. But they didn't suceed to make a AI utilizing the new rules. So instead they gave the AI bonuses which in reality negates the new economic rules. And the AI still plays CIV III, not Civ IV, spamming new cities as quickly as it is possible. No matter the cities are useless, in horsehockey places and undefendable.
So I bet this is what the original poster meaned too - if we play the Civ Iv, so make the AI play Civ IV too. Give it bonuses - but make it play the same game.
What I am against it is the city spamming. I am very angry when the AI declares a war just to be able to smugle a single galley and to build a city on the tundra where they saw a free tile in my back. In one of my games there is a group of 4 islands far ways from the large lands. On one island are 2 tiles and there is 1 city. The other island is 3x1 tiles one of which is a mountain and there is one city. The third island is 4x1 tiles and there are 2 cities. The larger island is... well, larger and there are (for now) 5 cities and 2 barbarians cities.
The idea Firaxis was promoting is new economic rules makes the city spamming inprofitable and thus impossible. But they didn't suceed to make a AI utilizing the new rules. So instead they gave the AI bonuses which in reality negates the new economic rules. And the AI still plays CIV III, not Civ IV, spamming new cities as quickly as it is possible. No matter the cities are useless, in horsehockey places and undefendable.
So I bet this is what the original poster meaned too - if we play the Civ Iv, so make the AI play Civ IV too. Give it bonuses - but make it play the same game.
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
Spoiler :
Precisely. The computer acts as if it had state property right from the start. It never seems to go bankrupt from city spamming. It also starts with more cities, and never stops producing them. On higher difficulty levels, the AI should not be able to have 27 cities, turn a profit, and beat me in the science race. Something should give. It should be a trade off, either it gets to have a bunch on money, a bunch of science, or a bunch of cities. It can't have all 3 unless it is possible for the human player to do so, like with state property.
Perhaps the AI isn't as good as a human in coming up with strategies, but it gets tiresome to take one city after another, after another, after another, just to eliminate the AI who has expanded over the entire map.
The solution to that is simple: Toggle for "AI gets maintenence bonus", on or off.
You know, if it spent less time spamming cities and more time defending and attacking, it might be more challenging. Once you start taking city after city from the enemy, the war is usually over. So if their forces were more concentrated, and they spent more time preparing for war, it could be more difficult to put a dent in their armor.
Once the armor has been shattered, they just begin to lose city after city. And then the game becomes an endless parade of seiges.
I understand that the new mods and expansions have vassal states or whatnot, but in vanilla it becomes tedious to finish off the enemy who spams all these useless cities.
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
Sorry my friend, you got a little lost in the shuffle there. I'll take a look at it.
Actually, its a big debate in the chess world.
For insance, if you play correpondence chess, you can use books, look up openings, etc. Youc an do anything except talk to another player or computer.
A human has to remember those lines when playing in a 'regular' game. Trust me, its not that easy!
So, there is a debate if computers play 'correspondance chess' or regular chess, since the programmers type opening books intot he computer. That is, the opening is not using the computer's algorithm ,it often uses the book.
I don't remmber his name, but the world correspondance champion actually beat one of the super computers in a match, which nobody now can do over the board at this point.
Best wishes,
Breunor
