The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Laurino]

Hi Woodelf!

Did you do it with the debug MOD that is available, or just the debug options in the civ.ini? Because if it was just the .ini file, then I don't think that it generates a logfile. Otherwise, it's said on the debug MOD thread, I think it's in "your documents" temp, or log dir, somehing like this...

 

[Notarzt]

Perhaps barbarian starting locations might do the trick?

My words! But make them not that easy to conquer if Thamis gives the ok for that.

 

[Notarzt]

The English term is close- Sappers. Yes. I was appalled at my inability to take my enemies cities with twice their strength or more, until I finally got catapults.

I havent encountered such problems. I attacked about the time recurve bow came in. As archers have +25% CA and high first strike chances (my babylonian composite archers even higher) it was absolutely no problem to conquer two adjectant phoenician cities who had about +40% CD and STR 4 units in it (one with 2 units - okay, easy - and one with 6 units).

Instead of making it a new unit, make it a promotion that branches off of city attack1.

But it wouldn't feel good to have this promotion before siege warfare either.

I'll probably design something like an early ram, that would more likely take down fortification and less likely make collateral damage. As I think rams were the first siege weapons to take down gates.

But ... omg I got THAT much to do.
Btw: if anyone has skills in skinning and 3d-model making - i really could use some help

 

[onedreamer]

The game still needs to be tweaked, obviously... and the map needs to be more balanced. I will work on that. Iberia still has a very overpowered starting location, and easily rise to the top every game, hundreds of points above the other players.

Perhaps barbarian starting locations might do the trick?

Points depend much on the extension of the territory, and Iberians have a huge territory at their disposal, which they actually didn't control in real history, if I'm not wrong.
You could make the map zoom more on the center of mediterranean, leaving out the useless deserts in the southern area of the map and a piece of spain and iran and giving more tiles to romans, greeks, carthaginians, egyptians etc.


@Siege Weapons

I'd rather introduce an Aries than towers... probably easier to skin and more realistic, towers were more advanced siege weapons.

 

[woodelf]

Hi Woodelf!

Did you do it with the debug MOD that is available, or just the debug options in the civ.ini? Because if it was just the .ini file, then I don't think that it generates a logfile. Otherwise, it's said on the debug MOD thread, I think it's in "your documents" temp, or log dir, somehing like this...

The .ini file. I had it on default to look at the Moon mod or else wouldn't have noticed anything in TAM since it runs smoothly. Not sure what the Feats are that are triggering the popup error box.

 

[Lachlan]

TAM is Good !

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Waiting for the final release of TAM is a lot like being eight years old the day before christmas, don't you think?

 

[Shqype]

My words! But make them not that easy to conquer if Thamis gives the ok for that.

Yes, this was something you mentioned in an email regarding balance, and this was something I thought about since I came on the team.

Iberia is able to expand unchecked, and they have very good terrain and resources. In my game the Gauls were the top civ (because the openings in the Italian Alps allowed them to cross through and found a city between Roman and Illyrian territory), UNTIL the Iberians eclipsed them and and once again rose high above everybody else.

So the map will obviously have to be tweaked. I'll work on that. With Thamis' approval, and some suggestions from you guys, I'de like to put barbarian cities with "Barbarian Defenders" [new immobile unit with high strength] which will give some, like the Iberians, trouble with expanding too early.

My plan is to give all areas some sort of barbaric opposition; By Greece and Illyria I'de like to put a barbarian city "Thracia." Maybe at the very north of Rome an "Etruria" city can be placed. Iberia can have 2 or 3 barbarian cities. etc., etc.

These are just examples and suggestions, in the direction of balance and fun.

 

[thamis]

Ok, here are my suggestions:

- Please close the gaps in the alps. I did that on purpose to defend Rome a bit, as from my TAM3 experience, Rome would always be pushed into its penninsula.
- I suggest that the Axeman gets +15% city attack.
- We should add another siege unit early. Sappers are a good idea. Rams would work too. Whatever is easier. I guess a RAM can't be skinned, but we could re-skin workers to be sappers (make them more military-looking).

 

[woodelf]

Shyqpe - Have you checked out the "turrets" that I begged Belizan to code into SotM? The sole purpose was to have a non-moving defender that the AI would always build, but we limited it to only having one per city. If that one dies they can build another though. That way you don't see 5-10 of these super defenders, but at the same time you do have a defender that won't get run over immediately. And ours have an automatic upgrade with tech....although that wouldn't happen with barbs, or would it?

 

[woodelf]

@thamis - I think some of the unit makers could make a primitive ram unit model. I would think it would pretty easy compared to what they've been coming up with.

 

[Shqype]

Shyqpe - Have you checked out the "turrets" that I begged Belizan to code into SotM? The sole purpose was to have a non-moving defender that the AI would always build, but we limited it to only having one per city. If that one dies they can build another though. That way you don't see 5-10 of these super defenders, but at the same time you do have a defender that won't get run over immediately. And ours have an automatic upgrade with tech....although that wouldn't happen with barbs, or would it?

No, I haven't check them out, but I did plan on doing something similar: the barb cities would be preplaced, a part of the scenario, as would that unit. It would be unbuildable by all; once the city lost it, its gone. The idea is that until the Iberians get more powerful units, they will not be able to defeat such a defender (unless they send alot of weaker units, of course). This would limit their expansion until a later time in the game.

Alright thamis, I'll close the gaps

 

[woodelf]

The non-moving part is the key so that the player or AI can't entice the powerful unit out of the city, negating it's bonuses.

 

[Shqype]

Yep. I've done such things with my Gjergj Kastrioti scenario in development, trust me

 

[HolyOne]

I have a few thoughts about religions that I want to share with you.
First of all I strongly support the idea to make certain religions foundable by certain civs. This can be done like in EE3.
Now, my main problem is, that the early religions become dominant too easily. Aesir is only 2 techs from the start for example. In my current game 7(!) civs have Aesir as state religion, 3 or 4 Mesopotamian, 2 greek and the rest is me or destroyed. I founded 3 religions as Rome: 1st Egyptian it spread quite well, as there were still a few "empty" cities. The other 2 is Zoroastrianism and Christianity. Z has spread to only 1 city naturally, the other was by the missionary I got on foundation. C spread only to Rome and only by missionary. I also noticed when I sieged one city after the other that they were also stacked with missionaries. The AI, especially the ones with Holy Cities use missionaries very actively. In my other game the schythians were busy converting my christian people back to druidism. (I didn't cancel the Open Borders because they were one of the few who were willing to trade with me.) It's good to see that the AI finally uses the religious units, but it makes the spread of the late and should-be-powerful religions (christianity, zoroastrianism) impossible.
I thought of two possible solutions.
1. Strip the missionary from the early religions and let them spread only naturally. This may seem drastic,, but think about it. These religions established in certain geographic regions, and that's it. They did not expand but co-existed with many other religions, brought by conquerors. For example the greeks tried to spread their religions in the hellenic states after Alexander, but the influence of the local religions, mystic cults was stronger, so the conquerors assimilated: it was impossible to make a classical greek or a roman believe that his king=a god, but that's what the Ptolemaios and Seleucid dynasty did. This method would (hopefully) make the early religions "obsolete" over time, but that exactly what happened. It's hard to imagine a druid coming to town, banging everyones head to worship nature
2. The above solution presents some gameplay balance issues and maybe it's too drastic. The compromise is to make all missionaries available with the late religions. Like Theology or something. And perhaps cut back the spread rate of early religions. This way there may be space for new religions to spread.
(3.) Another solution, but I don't think it's possible, is to make certain religions (for eyample: egyptian, mesopotamian) spread only within a certain radius. That would stop cities converting to your religion on the other side of the world without having any contact with your civ (as it happened with me and a phoenician city: that was my first contact with that civ) I guess it is impossible because of the engine but perhaps you may enlighten me about that.

I hope I was helpful and constructive and most of all clear. Sometimes I feel if I was just rambling about

 

[BenGee171]

1.4 is a very good version of TAM i am very happy and suprised to play such a good mod after all what earlyer versions showed me. Surely i knew that TAM will get a very good playable mod with much things wich can make you happy as a player. The Changes from 1.3 to 1.4 were sou huge, that i did not thought to get such a far version to play with 1.4. Congratulations!!

There are some things i want to notice here.
-I think it would be better to make a larger Coast. I was playing as Phoenician Civi and I was setleing between turkey and egypt i build only one colonie at those part of lybia with the sheeps.
I had good relations to egypt. but was on bad terms with others.
Kürus (green) and i had open boarders.
I declared war at Agamemnon (greek). After sending my first ship with 3 Units inside to Creta (Long Island south of greek) Kürus closed his boarders to me. So i had to transport my units to Carthage over Scicillia Itale to Greek. That was a long way which took me 13 turns.
I didn't like that between egypt and Creta is no coast. There is not much Room on the Map and Kürus builded so much Troops that i did want to declare war to him to take a better position in the mediteran sea. East of me there where only Dessert and Messepotania. Where i did not had information of Troop Strengh.
I think it fastly happens that you have no more Room to move on this map.

I would like to ask you if somebody of you wants to create with me in teamwork a new map!? a bigger map. I can use that bmptowbs, and i like it to paint maps. but i am not so good with placing threes, terrain and recource. also the maps i made are very big. my last is 170x85. the one before 109x92. surely i could make a smaller one for a faster scenario.. but i stink a little strech of the map u got would helpe to make the game develop better as now.

I also think siege is comming to late. but you are already working on it.

I dont like some of the Leaderheads. I will search google for better once if i find something i like i will show you.

Here is an Example of Maps i made. The Maps is 170x85 and my newest one.

 

[Shqype]

That's a very nice looking map!

I'm glad you like the changes from 1.3 to 1.4, it was alot of work, but it was done!

Now, I am working on the maps and have 2 more map sizes planned: the same TAM map but one smaller version and one larger version. You would like to play on the larger version, I'm sure.

There are also some slightly different maps I was given to implement to give players more of a choice with playing on slightly different maps with more civs.

Your map is good, like I said. Speak with Thamis about letting us use it and maybe he'll approve for it to be in a future version

 

[Pckering]

I have a few thoughts about religions that I want to share with you.
First of all I strongly support the idea to make certain religions foundable by certain civs. This can be done like in EE3.
Now, my main problem is, that the early religions become dominant too easily. Aesir is only 2 techs from the start for example. In my current game 7(!) civs have Aesir as state religion, 3 or 4 Mesopotamian, 2 greek and the rest is me or destroyed. I founded 3 religions as Rome: 1st Egyptian it spread quite well, as there were still a few "empty" cities. The other 2 is Zoroastrianism and Christianity. Z has spread to only 1 city naturally, the other was by the missionary I got on foundation. C spread only to Rome and only by missionary. I also noticed when I sieged one city after the other that they were also stacked with missionaries. The AI, especially the ones with Holy Cities use missionaries very actively. In my other game the schythians were busy converting my christian people back to druidism. (I didn't cancel the Open Borders because they were one of the few who were willing to trade with me.) It's good to see that the AI finally uses the religious units, but it makes the spread of the late and should-be-powerful religions (christianity, zoroastrianism) impossible.
I thought of two possible solutions.
1. Strip the missionary from the early religions and let them spread only naturally. This may seem drastic,, but think about it. These religions established in certain geographic regions, and that's it. They did not expand but co-existed with many other religions, brought by conquerors. For example the greeks tried to spread their religions in the hellenic states after Alexander, but the influence of the local religions, mystic cults was stronger, so the conquerors assimilated: it was impossible to make a classical greek or a roman believe that his king=a god, but that's what the Ptolemaios and Seleucid dynasty did. This method would (hopefully) make the early religions "obsolete" over time, but that exactly what happened. It's hard to imagine a druid coming to town, banging everyones head to worship nature
2. The above solution presents some gameplay balance issues and maybe it's too drastic. The compromise is to make all missionaries available with the late religions. Like Theology or something. And perhaps cut back the spread rate of early religions. This way there may be space for new religions to spread.
(3.) Another solution, but I don't think it's possible, is to make certain religions (for eyample: egyptian, mesopotamian) spread only within a certain radius. That would stop cities converting to your religion on the other side of the world without having any contact with your civ (as it happened with me and a phoenician city: that was my first contact with that civ) I guess it is impossible because of the engine but perhaps you may enlighten me about that.

I hope I was helpful and constructive and most of all clear. Sometimes I feel if I was just rambling about

Is it possible to do what was done in TAM CivIII by giving each civ, their own wonder? Like the riches of Kroises, or Solomons temple for Israel? That would give them their own unique Culture? It would only spread by conquest or by culture spreading... Example, The greeks would get the parthenon, Egypt the pyramids.. ETC. It may be too much work.

Just a thought.

 

[BenGee171]

There are not many recources placed at the moment only those wich locations i found in a map of the roman empire trade routes.

but you know the starting locations and could do the changes how you like to balance the recources on the map. i dont know much about placing recource... sometimes too much... sometimes not balanced... but i think terrain would be allright. I also could do another one. I did that map just for fun on 3 days... its not much work for me if i have good material to overpaint.
I will show you the map i used for makeing this one. It was very simple, cause of the minimal colors i had to change. I just had to add eastern parts by hand to have a closed mediteranen sea. and sure i realy want to offer you my help for this scenario... i like it very much and there is so much potencial i has. maybee this one is too big... 170x85 is very huge. you could place 2 or 3 civis only on italy and his islands. and look at the very huge spain and balkan.... i think this would be build up huge babarian tribes in a game, also the big dessert. and i could look for a map with parts of babylon and part of keltia and germany.

so here is the map is used to make this one

 

[BenGee171]

ok, my map is big enough to place phoenicia and israel on the same coast. if you like i will give you my map