The best CIV player
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diegobueno
Chieftain
"Hello viewers, absolute zero here, this is noble club n ° x" i love When at the beginning gives an analysis of the leaders, civilizations, starting techs, unit and buildings.
he is the reason i play 144 nobles club maps... on 2015-2016
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There are five broad ways to answer this question:
1. Look at GOTM (and SGOTM) results web pages.
2. Look at the HoF, Quadromasters, Elite Quadromasters and the numerous ways to rank the HoF data.
3. Look at MP players, threads and results.
4. Look at SG players, threads and results.
5. Look at Strategy and Tips players, threads and results.
Options 3-5 would be based on their thread participation and player reputation, since they don't maintain a database of results that are easily viewable, nor do they use a module like BUFFY that helps ensure that the games were played without accidental reloading or other innocent violations that such a module could detect.
This thread is trying to decide who is the best Civ IV player in general, and options 1 and 2 above add little to that discussion, since they specialize too much to be a general guide. That leaves polling as the final resort to obtaining an answer to this question.
In any case, this thread is quite old and the poll has extremely limited choices. This thread will thus not provide any meaningful answer. If readers really want an a compelling answer, a new thread and carefully constructed poll would be needed. The poll would still be subjective though.
Options 1 and 2 above do provide objective results, though only in the narrow area of their respective Civ IV specializations.
1. Look at GOTM (and SGOTM) results web pages.
2. Look at the HoF, Quadromasters, Elite Quadromasters and the numerous ways to rank the HoF data.
3. Look at MP players, threads and results.
4. Look at SG players, threads and results.
5. Look at Strategy and Tips players, threads and results.
Options 3-5 would be based on their thread participation and player reputation, since they don't maintain a database of results that are easily viewable, nor do they use a module like BUFFY that helps ensure that the games were played without accidental reloading or other innocent violations that such a module could detect.
This thread is trying to decide who is the best Civ IV player in general, and options 1 and 2 above add little to that discussion, since they specialize too much to be a general guide. That leaves polling as the final resort to obtaining an answer to this question.
In any case, this thread is quite old and the poll has extremely limited choices. This thread will thus not provide any meaningful answer. If readers really want an a compelling answer, a new thread and carefully constructed poll would be needed. The poll would still be subjective though.
Options 1 and 2 above do provide objective results, though only in the narrow area of their respective Civ IV specializations.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
@Sun Tzu Wu
Who do you think should be included in the poll?
Who do you think should be included in the poll?
I've always been conflicted on this type of discussion.
While all the SP players technically are competing against each other, in the end they are still playing against the AI. So does scoring a few more points or finishing a few turns early make you a better player or just the more anal?
I'm more likely to lean towards the MP players who play head to head against each other.
While all the SP players technically are competing against each other, in the end they are still playing against the AI. So does scoring a few more points or finishing a few turns early make you a better player or just the more anal?
I'm more likely to lean towards the MP players who play head to head against each other.
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In my opinion, discussions like this are fun, as long as one doesn't take them too seriously.
I don't know much about MP Civ IV, but I would guess that there might be a signicant variation in the skill of one's MP opponents, unless the same group of players always plays against each other. For SP games, the AIs opponents are all equally mediocre in skill.
To answer shakbrade's question, I would determine the maximum items that can appear in a poll, divide by 5 giving a value of X. I would then pick the X highest ranked Deity players in each of the five categories I outlined in a recent post. Start a new thread with a poll of those X players from each of the five categories. If there are more than the five significant categories I outlined, please define them here, so they can be added.
I don't know much about MP Civ IV, but I would guess that there might be a signicant variation in the skill of one's MP opponents, unless the same group of players always plays against each other. For SP games, the AIs opponents are all equally mediocre in skill.
To answer shakbrade's question, I would determine the maximum items that can appear in a poll, divide by 5 giving a value of X. I would then pick the X highest ranked Deity players in each of the five categories I outlined in a recent post. Start a new thread with a poll of those X players from each of the five categories. If there are more than the five significant categories I outlined, please define them here, so they can be added.
Virupaksha
Chieftain
I think SP and MP are such different animals that it's impossible to compare.
Looking at Wastin Time's current HOF game while I have nothing but admiration for the level of skill and strategic thought displayed some degree of his success is based on the predictability of the AI behaviour.
Would be fascinating to see how he'd do on the MP games on Realms Beyond, especially a full diplo game where being too far ahead invites a dogpile. SP and MP are two very different animals.
Looking at Wastin Time's current HOF game while I have nothing but admiration for the level of skill and strategic thought displayed some degree of his success is based on the predictability of the AI behaviour.
Would be fascinating to see how he'd do on the MP games on Realms Beyond, especially a full diplo game where being too far ahead invites a dogpile. SP and MP are two very different animals.
Noble Zarkon
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I agree, they're really different games that you can't compare.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Maybe in Starcraft. The best are where there is the most competition. Civ4 MP is not competitive enough and uses maybe 1/3 of the game as anything peaceful is pointless, right?
Never played Civ4 MP, so please take my comment with the spoon of salt.
I will repeat my words on what I consider to be the greatest player as I don't like subdividing to the infinity and think that common sense can be employed to go beyond some irrelevant metrics (like elite QM).
For me, taking EQM as a measure of skill is like you are comparing a researcher with 50 irrelevant papers on trendy topics with, dunno, the one on General Relativity. 50 > 1, right? No.
Although there is a ladder in EQM or GOTM or whatever, there is very low participation from the community due to the tedium constant participation induces. Therefore, I'll stick to the somewhat subjective general impression (intuitive approach) a player makes as I can take much more relevant information into account like map difficulty, luck factor, creativity, etc.
For me, the most skill I've seen displayed is from Snaaty. I extrapolate a lot when I say that he'd do good in any settings, but when a man can pull-off Deity AW, and some other stuff like he did, I am pretty much certain that is the case. It is simply about the way how he analyses the game and situation and deep game understanding he posseses. He is probably extremely good in any game he plays. However, when we take time component (the lack of knowledge on high level Civ in the beginning), the greatest leap was made by Unconquered Sun and that is why I find him the greatest.
For instance, I could be considered S&T player (please note that I love and admire HoF players and also lack their patience) but I was certain that I could take HoF slot in first try on somewhat cooked map although I always played random maps before and had zero experience with barbs off, weak neighbours and such. And so I did (take the weak slots
). Snaaty doesn't have a HoF slot, but I am certain he could take any (mine on first try) except probably Marathon Inca slots which are their own games. There are other active players who could easily take any slot they wanted (Fippy, Rusten for instance) but they don't really seem interested. However bureaucratic approach would say that I am better at Standard/Normal/Deity Conquest which I know is (Sitting) Bull**it. They are obviously better and no metric is needed for me to see that.
I will agree with Shaka on this one. People that are into multiplayer will gravitate towards other games. I played a lot of wc3 before and during the early days of civ4, but I never had any interest in civilization MP (real-time). I loaded up wc3 instead -- a true MP game. And the real-time version was the only "competitive" one with ladders and similar. The MP community suffers (or suffered -- I think only PB remains now) from segregation much like the SP community. You had the pitboss community on one hand and the real-time community (named civplayers or something, but I think the website is obsolete) on the other.
I never bothered playing the real-time version as civ is simply hugely inferior to proper RTS titles in that way (IMO anyway), but I played several pitbosses 6-8 years ago and can recommend. I think it's a format many people from here would enjoy. I've been wanting to get back into it, but the problem is that they're a huge commitment as the game stretches over several months and sometimes for more than a year. Pitbosses are still going on over at realmsbeyond.
I never bothered playing the real-time version as civ is simply hugely inferior to proper RTS titles in that way (IMO anyway), but I played several pitbosses 6-8 years ago and can recommend. I think it's a format many people from here would enjoy. I've been wanting to get back into it, but the problem is that they're a huge commitment as the game stretches over several months and sometimes for more than a year. Pitbosses are still going on over at realmsbeyond.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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There's a still very active german pitboss community that i sometimes read for fun 
Civ4 can be played very competitive in multi.
They have games with between 10-40 players often, there's ~2 day timers and peoples log into a server and make their turn within that time. Game moves on quicker before timers are over, if everybody moved.
Those games often last 1-2 years.
Sounds crazy to us, sure
But reading those threads, i know there's so much more involved compared to playing against AIs.
You always need defense, humans use good counter units and distribute them logically so attacking is difficult.
Peaceful and micro are also just as important, and you must manage your land without help of AIs who will always give you gold and so. You cannot wait with settling good spots and hope you can take them later from AIs.
Those long games are certainly not for me, but i know i would have much to learn before i could be more than an easy farm victim for some of those guys.
It's not about ladders or real time, but it's almost a different game when players replace AIs.
I know they are better than me, cos they know what i know about Civ + they have experience in playing against real competition. Cannot be compared to Deity wins or HoF, imo.
Oh, Snaaty came from there too
Maybe he was so creative cos he knew they are only AIs.
Civ4 can be played very competitive in multi.
They have games with between 10-40 players often, there's ~2 day timers and peoples log into a server and make their turn within that time. Game moves on quicker before timers are over, if everybody moved.
Those games often last 1-2 years.
Sounds crazy to us, sure
But reading those threads, i know there's so much more involved compared to playing against AIs.
You always need defense, humans use good counter units and distribute them logically so attacking is difficult.
Peaceful and micro are also just as important, and you must manage your land without help of AIs who will always give you gold and so. You cannot wait with settling good spots and hope you can take them later from AIs.
Those long games are certainly not for me, but i know i would have much to learn before i could be more than an easy farm victim for some of those guys.
It's not about ladders or real time, but it's almost a different game when players replace AIs.
I know they are better than me, cos they know what i know about Civ + they have experience in playing against real competition. Cannot be compared to Deity wins or HoF, imo.
Oh, Snaaty came from there too
Maybe he was so creative cos he knew they are only AIs.
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Yeah...I played around a bit with teamers over on civplayers a few years ago. Highly competitive fast games, with honestly quite a bit of elitism. Ha..I was pretty lost with at all. Pretty much the only MP I ever tried with any game. Although I did fill in on a Pitboss game once.
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lol..there is currently a time limit to edit your posts
I was going to add that while I don't have a frame of reference really (played wc3 in SP only), I find it hard to believe that real-time MP in civ was far inferior to RTS in general. While, granted, there is more moving parts in a game like wc3, the teamers were highly competitive and fun. My biggest issues is that, as a whole, the players over there were not a "welcoming" bunch.
I was going to add that while I don't have a frame of reference really (played wc3 in SP only), I find it hard to believe that real-time MP in civ was far inferior to RTS in general. While, granted, there is more moving parts in a game like wc3, the teamers were highly competitive and fun. My biggest issues is that, as a whole, the players over there were not a "welcoming" bunch.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
It's alright, guys, you can still vote for me. Actually, I know, I do not need the votes, thank you very much.
I like how this poll gave a concise choice between the best 3 players that ever were. Dad & mama ducks and their little duckling. Wonderful ! This is a fable that fits my tastes.
Err... Errr...
So, Starcraft is a wild game, Lymond.
Could we play Civ multiplayer ? Yes. Would it require better skill than solo play ? Yes.
Was Civ designed with multiplayer in mind ? No. Can it ever compare with a game that was designed for multi play ? No.
And then there's Korea, the sponsors, the pro scene, the guys training 13 hours a day, and then, on top of it all, there are the few ones, there is the S-class.
Truly, Starcraft is a wild game, Lymond.
Entre the vortex here :
Click, cliquetis-clack if you will.
Oh-oops ! Pardon me, I didn't feel the need to make an argument. Starcraft is that good.
Mostly, Civ isn't dynamic enough to be a great fit for multi.
Don't click if you didn't click :
I like how this poll gave a concise choice between the best 3 players that ever were. Dad & mama ducks and their little duckling. Wonderful ! This is a fable that fits my tastes.
Err... Errr...
So, Starcraft is a wild game, Lymond.
Could we play Civ multiplayer ? Yes. Would it require better skill than solo play ? Yes.
Was Civ designed with multiplayer in mind ? No. Can it ever compare with a game that was designed for multi play ? No.
And then there's Korea, the sponsors, the pro scene, the guys training 13 hours a day, and then, on top of it all, there are the few ones, there is the S-class.
Truly, Starcraft is a wild game, Lymond.
Entre the vortex here :
Spoiler :
Oh-oops ! Pardon me, I didn't feel the need to make an argument. Starcraft is that good.
Mostly, Civ isn't dynamic enough to be a great fit for multi.
Don't click if you didn't click :
Spoiler :
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
@Fippy
I can see that a person can learn much when playing slowly. In that regard, MP players do have an edge. MP is intensive, unforgiving, provides enough motivation on its own simply being MP. A person involved in MP game will definitely make level of commitment of Wasting Time level. But abusing an AI is an art of its own too! It is probably the most creative part of this game. AI behaviour is also a building block, degree of freedom, whatever. Humans are all the same (want to win, build defense, need to use army to make it worth) and you shouldn't assume some are more or less capable if you don't want to get caught pants down in a year-long game, heck someone can improve drastically in that timeframe. You simply prepare for worst. Somehow on the same page, I played K-mod and it simply makes AI unreasonably aggressive (like human). Wasn't fun after finally winning. Of course, winning against humans is very rewarding... and addictive but MP still lacks a lot of what makes this game better than most.
@bic
I can see that a person can learn much when playing slowly. In that regard, MP players do have an edge. MP is intensive, unforgiving, provides enough motivation on its own simply being MP. A person involved in MP game will definitely make level of commitment of Wasting Time level. But abusing an AI is an art of its own too! It is probably the most creative part of this game. AI behaviour is also a building block, degree of freedom, whatever. Humans are all the same (want to win, build defense, need to use army to make it worth) and you shouldn't assume some are more or less capable if you don't want to get caught pants down in a year-long game, heck someone can improve drastically in that timeframe. You simply prepare for worst. Somehow on the same page, I played K-mod and it simply makes AI unreasonably aggressive (like human). Wasn't fun after finally winning. Of course, winning against humans is very rewarding... and addictive but MP still lacks a lot of what makes this game better than most.
@bic
Spoiler :
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Yes sir ! Unquestionably.
I'm not very informed about SC2. I know they changed the way units move and it put off many Broodwar players.
Can't remember the details, however.
I'm not very informed about SC2. I know they changed the way units move and it put off many Broodwar players.
Can't remember the details, however.
ArchGhost
Prince
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Flash definitely was the best Brood War Terran that ever played the game. You always have to normalize for the era they competed in, their overall winning success, how far along the meta was, etc. There are other monsters throughout BW history like Boxer, Oov, and Nada (perhaps Fantasy as well, as BW was winding down) that played Terran and were extremely successful.
But Flash was probably the best Terran that ever competed in the Korean scene, at the culmination of BW's granduer before Blizzard and KESPA killed it with SC2's adoption. Meaning, against the most skilled opponents in the world, with the meta as advanced as it had ever been, against the youngest and freshest kids churned out of the coaching mills (for reference, older players tend to have lower actions per minute; he himself was a prodigy that stormed the scene as one of the youngest to ever compete in his first televised game), and he showed such monstrous consistency even against the best players of the other respective races (Jaedong for Zerg, Bisu for Protoss, other good Terrans like Fantasy, Leta etc.) that he was a terrifying opponent for anybody. Nada may have the numbers to back his own claim as the winningest player, but Flash is probably the most technically skilled player of the game that ever lived due to his sheer mastery of gameplay. The same argument may hold water for the other kings of the alternate races, but Flash was always the most impressive to me personally (and I'm a Zerg fan all the way...).
Specifically, beyond Flash's strengths in both macro (economy/unit production) and micromanagement (controlling actions), his reaction on the fly and ability to keep composed even under extreme pressure made him a nightmare to deal with even if the other player managed to get an up on him. I find his legendary resilience to stress during run-bys, all-ins, proxies and the like his most impressive trait; he was so good at dealing with the pressure that not only would he rarely crack, but the other guy might get flustered and lose his advantage. The kid was truly a machine in his prime.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
^ Very nice post, sir ! 
