The Boeing Thread

[r16]

737 keeps living on due to Goverment Fiat that limits Boeing's new things . As added in the edited part .

 

[Farm Boy]

please ı edited in a part .

Doesn't change my assessment.

I think I'd have to care about the nationality of "financial types" or whatever, when really, I don't so much. They're a class unto themselves, often as not. The globally mobile.

 

[r16]

meant for Marla Singer who likes 380 .

 

[Farm Boy]

Gotcha!

 

[Marla_Singer]

for the part you wouldn't have understand in my post it says the EU demanded Airbus domination in return for accepting F-35 destroying their military prospects . 380 to replace 747 which Boeing was forced to accept but "betrayed" the deal by the publicity o the Sonic Cruiser which was then handily replaced by the 787 , which happily crushed the 380 or something . Ths world is not all Gulf Arabian statelets with a lot of sand , so that you can build bigger and bigger airports .

I don't know if it really happened that way but there are definitely tensions in this regard within Europe.

The pre-Ukraine war situation was pretty simple. Most of Europe, with Germany in the forefront, was ready to make big concessions to the US in order to make it sure the country would continue protecting them. Buying F-35s and other US defence stuff was done with enthusiasm if that would convince the US to stay in Europe, despite the pivot to Asia that was announced by Obama in 2009.

On the other hand, France was isolated in the old continent with its proposal to develop a European autonomic strategy based on a homegrown defence industry. Germany hated that, saying that even suggesting the idea was enough to convince the US that they could reasonably retreat from Europe. With the rise of China, it appears more and more that the Western bloc in general (NATO+Australia, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan...) cannot be supported by the US all alone and that Europe will need to ramp up its military, despite Germany's reluctance to do so. The war in Ukraine, and the recent blocking of the vote in Congress on US military aid, made that even clearer.

As such, it seems that different opinions are now converging. Europeans are now ready to invest in their military as long as that is done with the US approval. Germany is firmly committed to remaining the undisputed industrial leader of Europe, including in the defence sector, but the country still remains very uncomfortable with the idea of taking its geostrategic responsibilities. On the other hand, France is ready to handle that role, but the country's economy rely excessively on a debt that is essentially guaranteed by Germany. As such, France lacks the financial capacity to really meet up with its strategic ambitions. The end result is that the European effort remains too weak and too slow.

 

[warpus]

Boeing has gone down the crapper. In an attempt to maximize profits, they have over time cut corners to such a degree that they have sacrificed a commitment to engineering excellence and a focus on safety.

We have seen this exact same thing happen with other American and global brands - They get taken over by those hoping to "optimize" and "streamline" the company in an order to squeeze out as much in terms of profits as possible, which leads to a decrease of quality. These people take over a company that has built up a reputable brand and drive it into the ground by removing the focus on quality that has made them reputable in the first place. All in the name of immediate profits for their shareholders.

How many brands used to be your go-to for quality, something that would work well and last a long time.. that have now had a more than noticeable drop in quality, while still costing an arm and a leg? Companies that produce household appliances, clothing, cars, even restaurants.. No brand is safe from this madness.

When I was booking my flight to Portugal, I actively avoided any flights that flew Boeing planes. I don't trust them at all.

 

[Cutlass]

What surprises me is how ahead is the US when it goes about military aviation and how late it is when it goes about civil aviation. That new B-21 raider thing is super impressive.

Now okay we can guess that the US military is so ahead thanks to their incredible fundings ($400 billion for the F35 program, $200 billion for the B-21 program), but then the question is how aren't the US able to bail out Boeing knowing how important is civil aviation economically? That seems to be more a matter of choice rather than a matter of capacity.

All in all, Airbus has already launched its program to replace its own narrowbody champion, the A320, by 2035/2040 (probably with a hydrogen-powered plane) and there's nothing yet announced by Boeing to replace the 737. That does feel weird.

Boeing dominated the industry globally for something like 60 years. And that included when the USSR was funding their industry as a matter of national prestige. Fact is, if it were not for the support of national governments for Airbus, Boeing would be the only maker of large airliners left in the world.

Nobody really knew how deep of a hole Boeing had dug for themselves. It was hidden behind the company's success.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Boeing dominated the industry globally for something like 60 years. And that included when the USSR was funding their industry as a matter of national prestige. Fact is, if it were not for the support of national governments for Airbus, Boeing would be the only maker of large airliners left in the world.

Nobody really knew how deep of a hole Boeing had dug for themselves. It was hidden behind the company's success.

Boeing really dominated only from the 1960's to the 1990's (it was rather Douglas before that), and that was at a time when the US civil aviation market represented a gigantic share of the global market.

Yet from an engineering point of view, Europeans never really lagged behind when it goes about civil aviation. The British-made de Havilland Comet was the first jetliner (1949). It had some flaws but those were corrected with the French-made Caravelle (1955). The first US jet airliners (Douglas DC-8 and Boeing 707) will only come later, but they will dwaf Europeans thanks to the huge US market. The US did have good engineers in civil aviation at the time, don't misinterpret me. The 747 was particularly impressive. Yet Europeans were still able to release the Concorde and later the Airbus A300, the first twin-engine widebody aircraft. Even if they didn't have the same commercial success as Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas, they were still there.

The same cannot be said at all when it goes about military aviation: the US clearly dominate the Europeans both technologically and commercially since world war 2. Europe still has the Eurofighter and the Rafale, but they are really far behind.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

The

Boeing dominated the industry globally for something like 60 years. And that included when the USSR was funding their industry as a matter of national prestige. Fact is, if it were not for the support of national governments for Airbus, Boeing would be the only maker of large airliners left in the world.

Nobody really knew how deep of a hole Boeing had dug for themselves. It was hidden behind the company's success.

60 years? mmm, no. I would say Boeing dominated 30-35 years from 1965 to 1995 basically. The first 5 years in the 60s there were other contenders that were there first, (de Havilland mostly), and before 1960 Boeing didn't even exist in the jet airliner industry. After 1995 Boeing was still leading but with Airbus closing distances, and since the early 2000s Airbus has been beating Boeing regularly.

Boeing current problems are not because they are too successful but because they have serious difficulties competing with Airbus products, probably trading price by quality and making questionable design decisions to improve fuel efficiency. In fact currently there are quite more Airbuses flying around the world than Boeings and the trend seems to point to an increment of this difference pretty fast, unless Boeing does something spectacular and quickly.

About subsidies, I don't think Boeing and its trillonaries defense contracts with US government is totally innocent either, to the point that Boeing wouldn't probably exist without US military. In fact the Boeing 707, the aircraft that gave Boeing access to the jet airliner industry in the 60s, was before all a militar aircraft made for refuelling USAF fighters, motorized with engines made for USAF bombers.

 

[Crezth]

Boeing really dominated only from the 1960's to the 1990's (it was rather Douglas before that), and that was at a time when the US civil aviation market represented a gigantic share of the global market.

Yet from an engineering point of view, Europeans never really lagged behind when it goes about civil aviation. The British-made de Havilland Comet was the first jetliner (1949). It had some flaws but those were corrected with the French-made Caravelle (1955). The first US jet airliners (Douglas DC-8 and Boeing 707) will only come later, but they will dwaf Europeans thanks to the huge US market. The US did have good engineers in civil aviation at the time, don't misinterpret me. The 747 was particularly impressive. Yet Europeans were still able to release the Concorde and later the Airbus A300, the first twin-engine widebody aircraft. Even if they didn't have the same commercial success as Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas, they were still there.

The same cannot be said at all when it goes about military aviation: the US clearly dominate the Europeans both technologically and commercially since world war 2. Europe still has the Eurofighter and the Rafale, but they are really far behind.

Good post, no other summaries on this need to be read by people using this thread.

 

[Cutlass]

 

[Thorgalaeg]

The 1960s was the golden decade for Boeing. They quickly went from building basically bombers and being far behind in the airliner market to being head and shoulders over competition designing one revolutionary aircraft after other and setting the standard for future airliners with the 707 and with the 727-derived 737, and short after building never dreamt things as the 747.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

FAA investigates after Southwest plane drops to ‘within 400ft’ of Pacific Ocean

News comes as US regulators investigate separate incident after Boeing 737 Max 8 plane did a ‘Dutch roll’ in May

www.theguardian.com

Boeing investigated after 'Dutch roll'

Air regulators are investigating new issues with Boeing planes.

www.bbc.com

 

[Cutlass]

Counterfeit Titanium Found In Boeing And Airbus Jets
By
Amelia Walsh -
Published: June 14, 2024

Counterfeit Titanium Found In Boeing And Airbus Jets - AVweb

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Spirit AeroSystems, a supplier of fuselages for Boeing and wings for Airbus, are investigating counterfeit titanium found in recently manufactured jets. According to The New York Times, who first reported the news, falsified documents were used to...

www.avweb.com

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Spirit AeroSystems, a supplier of fuselages for Boeing and wings for Airbus, are investigating counterfeit titanium found in recently manufactured jets.

According to The New York Times, who first reported the news, falsified documents were used to verify the material’s authenticity—prompting concerns about the structural integrity of the airliners. The investigation comes as small holes were found in the material due to corrosion.

The use of fake titanium affects certain Boeing 737 Max and 787 Dreamliner airliners, as well as Airbus A220 jets, according to sources who spoke anonymously to The New York Times. It is unclear how many of the aircraft are in service and which airlines own them.

In a statement, Spirit AeroSystems said, “This is about titanium that has entered the supply system via documents that have been counterfeited. When this was identified, all suspect parts were quarantined and removed from Spirit production.” The company added, “More than 1,000 tests have been completed to confirm the mechanical and metallurgical properties of the affected material to ensure continued airworthiness.”

Both Boeing and Airbus reported their testing of the affected materials has not revealed any issues and airworthiness of their aircraft fleets remain uncompromised.

FACEPALM...

 

[r16]

this is not the Boeing post , ı haven't written it yet , but , hey , like it is proven that you can't partner with the Turks . As if ı had a need or wish for partnerships ! Like even if there are those who claim titanium doesn't rust or whatever and it is entirely bogus ...

as the linked thing lacks "details" , the material in question was supposedly bought by the factory in Ankara in 2019 (from a bogus Chinese company) and first identified by the Italian intermediary who then moved it into the Boeing production system . The general manager in Ankara has been quickly sacked , this despite being not the true reason .

 

[innonimatu]

Counterfeit Titanium Found In Boeing And Airbus Jets

A wild guiess: more fallout from that bright idea of self-sanctioning against buying from an historically reliable supplier of titanium?

When I was booking my flight to Portugal, I actively avoided any flights that flew Boeing planes. I don't trust them at all.

The national company here does not use Boeing.

 

[r16]

trying to write concise , easy to read , readily quotable posts is dangerous . It wreaks havoc with your own mind with mixing the dates , hence the cause and effect relationships . NGAD didn't collapse like a house of cards in a week ; it took two weeks .

Spoiler :

the NGAD was to be announced "in the summer" , like by the end of August at the latest . Then delayed to October . Corrected in a single week to probably never , over the course of that fortnight . Boeing supposedly still ahead .

when the F-35 unit cost was officially 35 million dollars , ı had calculated it would be 95 at service entry like through the method of times 3 , subtract 10 . Lockmart proposal for NGAD is supposedly 300 , it will be like 550 at service entry , because the previous method would take it to billion mark , which is B-21 territory . Boeing proposal is said to be technologically more advanced and possibly comes out cheaper or whatever . Accordingly USAF has once again returned to B-21 as a controller of drones and extremely long range AAMs .

it is becoming widespread that Lockmart is/was/still is playing for NGAD to fall . My definition of a strike force for emergencies where they are kept out of sight as they remove all the kill switches they themselves installed becomes a Lockmart strike (well aware that the US Goverment can not declare a lockout or hire strike breakers) . For those who won't get this , more than 100 F-35s for US services remain officially undelivered , out of sight at secret locations , waiting for computer upgrades . ı say the USMC crash when they couldn't find the jet for a couple of days is proof that the vaunted firewalls are like broken and ordinary F-35s can be shut down in the air before entering the range they can be shot down . Stripping out all the export gear inside/getting ready for a showdown . Unmanly , you say ı am willing to bet . This is very unamerican . So you get to hear Lockmart is stuffing them in and not delivering and will not until the day it wins NGAD . Or cancelled , possibly like in this case .

some similar situation was the F-14 . Replacing McDD's Phantom , it would have crashed on its maiden flight . It survived until the second as bad weather cut the first flight short . Grumman might have gone down due to Apollo 13 . Eventually the Shah of Iran infused a lot of cash after purchasing some . People might have read stuff that the Saudis supposedly declared the end of Petrodollar stuff . Other people on the web suggest such a deal never existed . Like NGAD wouldn't be sold to the Saudis , certainly not the USAF version but the Saudis might have lended money for other stuff which would then have cleared the funds for the NGAD programme . If anyone is indeed willing to palm his/her face for the recent titanium outrage from Boeing , he/she should also notice that the Saudis were in the factory in Ankara on the day of the ceremony that saw the new manager or CEO or whatever take over !

there are some who loathe me for some or any reason . My opposition to QFX , Qatari Experimental Fighter , F-24A to F size to fit RR engines is like well known . Like didn't ı name it Quantum afterwards ? That it should have been taken entirely to Doha ? As long as the British experts just left and didn't come back ? So that we could utterly fail in doing stuff as it is our wont ? Saudis now replacing Qataris ? Hardly . But it helps Americans who are around here to claim the rot that eats the country is beaten back or something and like there should be reciprocality ...

yes , the titanium issue is trivial and does not take aim at Boeing . People have started to opinionate that the Navy NGAD which was seperated from NGAD should be the path taken by both USN and USAF . A Trump Presidency will certainly see F-35C replacing the Subpar Hornet in the face of clear and present Gyna danger and as an economy measure , which will eventually kill the Navy NGAD , too . Leaving Roper's Navy Fighter from 2017 which then can be sold all around the Pasific . Uhmm , like as a threat to the British prospects of sales . Eventually after the demise the Navy Fighter , what's left as an hulking piece of machinery that can do the rounds in the South China Sea for those who can't have the F-35 ? Uh , yeah , the F-24G . Hence the patriotic "sh_tter" posts about how the second engine company of the US tried to rob this country back in 2013 with an ancient F-110-135 . At a time when the British decision was getting us work on a Gripen to sell theirs later on . Hence the revelations that evil Turks trying to kill Americans and Europeans through shady deals with the Chinese . By rotting titanium that secretly eats away the strenght of airliners that carry innocent people around . ı have just read Washington had forced the Swiss to confiscate an hotel owned by a Chinese couple because it overlooks the Swiss airbase where they will base their F-35s . America who can't control Israel at all forced the Israeli pilots turn back their new cars which were donated by some Chinese company in PR stunt because Wi-Fi .

supposedly Heavy Metal blasts through the corridors of F-35 bases to prevent Russian spies putting their ears to doors and walls to overhear secrets .

lord Vader DOES laugh at my travails . GOD FORBID the things that might have had happened , had ı been trying to sell anything .

that's why everybody now says the American F-31 would have been a better plane than the F-35 with a twin F-414 installation , a 90s engine with 80s tech . They , this everybody in the previous sentence , would have shot you for saying this in the 2000s , in case they couldn't report you to the moderators first . Inspiring some random Brown people to cut F-24G to E/F size and the sole basis for the 24G is we have had a whole factory to build 110 parts since 1980s . 414 will inevitably be rejected , because it is (still) a direct threat to yet unbuilt RR engine , citing it has never been in the inventory of the now dead Turkish Armed Forces , killing the E/F which didn't have the payload range in the 1990s during the early conception , removing the threat of Japan abandoning stuff for extraordinary costs of highway robbery after comparing things and like a lead of two years already . Like people have not yet started running around in the middle of the night in their underwear .


but yeah , a lot of soundings taking place . Not going to accuse anyone but the British are hard at work to sell their artillery spotter to USAF . Even the most improbable "Ultra Hornet" mentioned . Which was a thing to replace the F-14 in the 1970s and then 90s . Pratt didn't have the engine first time . It would have been a 110 in the second case which was entirely against Dick Cheney's stock market investments .

ugh . F-24G sold to USAF ? That would be Chernobyl within 10 miles of my house ! People would fly in a whole nuclear power station to accidentally explode it ! There is no way it would have the range either . All F-35C decks for the Navy ; like what do ı owe you ? But yes , throughly natural that F-24 development should have mirrored the F-18 range .

this Boeing thread , you say as you hit report ? Yeah . Because no NGAD so Boeing instead gets to fix Spirit which means Airbus will take its share and Spirit will be broken up . Which forced the pace of this post if it indeed really gets declared tomorrow . Good riddance is fit to print . No use of the service pallanthir , ı read about it on the web .

similarly the case of the sacked manager . Forums with 10 or 15 years old posts that say he wants to be the Prime Minister after the PM . Am ready to believe that he spoke loudly to the Last Imperialist (PM's first Prime Minister after getting the Presidency) in view of a lot in a plane as the Little Imperialist was being sacked after playing the PM's game against the 11th President ... The source for that also claims the manager had decided to follow the second son-in-law of the PM after giving away the drone secrets from the factory before sabotaging the drone programmes of the factory for the second son-in-law of the PM . In contrast to r16 BS that said the two were in competition for the bragging rights of the New Turkey fighter jet , meaning cancellation of the F-24G . The PM supposedly has decided against the second son-in-law as his crown prince , somehow meaning the second son-in-law of the PM that he should also have an jet engine company . He has a space business thing because his political game works on being the local and national Elon Musk and does Musk have jet engines ? (He has rocket engines though . Yeah , ı missed that)

in any case the manager missed both flights of the F-24G as they were timed for episodes when he wasn't in Ankara so that nobody would have seen him around in this moment of glory . Politics are bad .

this is an ugly joke ... Shows what might have been worked on , had people been real . Not for CFC members . Will be available for a trillion and half per copy . Easily solves all the problems considering the US fighter pilots DO consider themselves as gods .

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Boeing's leaking Starliner spacecraft has delayed 2 astronauts' return to Earth

NASA and Boeing announced on Tuesday that Starliner's return from orbit had been delayed again to June 26.

www.businessinsider.com

Inside the Korean Air Boeing plane that descended 25,000 feet after a pressurization fault

A Korean Air flight bound for Taiwan made an emergency landing after a pressurization fault was detected.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[r16]

sigh . Like you people out of CFC have all the way or something , right ?

 

[r16]

oh , oh ... South Koreans have their downsized thing and according to those who observe things it will have an upsized version for the Saudis . Which should cover the entire South China Sea Market . Uhhm , oh-kay ? So what ? Wasn't keen on selling , if you are past a 5 years old in English language reading comprehension , right ?