The Byzantine empire

Then there's the problem of, well, what made their beliefs such a "sin" anyway? The central sticking point in the arguments between the Latin and Greek churches, the filioque clause, was demonstrably heretical, an alteration of the original formulation. Putting that in changes how the Trinity works, and the nature of the relationship of the believer to her God.

False. Eastern Orthodox Christians do not (well, at least should not) deny the theological implications of the Filioque. The Second Council of Nicaea, accepted by the Greek Orthodox Church, has a final professional of faith which includes: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (AD 787). The Filioque was merely an update to the Nicene Creed using this formulation. The dispute is about whether the Pope had the authority to add the Filioque to the Nicene Creed without ecumenical authority.

Given the East-West Schism was sparked by the Patriarch of Constantinople doing something far more significant than that (attempting to enforce using leavened bread for the Holy Eucharist in all dioceses), I would hope that this issue should be settled sometime soon.
 
False. Eastern Orthodox Christians do not (well, at least should not) deny the theological implications of the Filioque. The Second Council of Nicaea, accepted by the Greek Orthodox Church, has a final professional of faith which includes: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (AD 787). The Filioque was merely an update to the Nicene Creed using this formulation. The dispute is about whether the Pope had the authority to add the Filioque to the Nicene Creed without ecumenical authority.

Given the East-West Schism was sparked by the Patriarch of Constantinople doing something far more significant than that (attempting to enforce using leavened bread for the Holy Eucharist in all dioceses), I would hope that this issue should be settled sometime soon.
Even if you're right, and frankly I have neither the background or the inclination to argue about Church history or doctrine, then it's a question about who the hell is in charge anyway, which can be even more important to the believer. And the Latins still jumped the gun. Point stands.
 
Seems like the right thread to ask this question:

I recently came across a brief mention of Emperor Constantine V Copronymus and Iconoclasm in my encyclopedia. According to the encyclopaedia entry Constantine V "rigidly enforced a decree forbidding the use of images in worship, and he opposed monasticism. A serious result of this policy was the loss of Rome and, ultimately, of Italy to the Byzantines. Pope Zacharias broke with Constantine, and Pope Stephen II placed Rome under the protection of Pepin the Short."

How accurate is this? I don't know that much about the period, but I do know this is around the time that the great expansion of Islam through conquest took place, which would certainly have troubled Byzantium. I would imagine this would have far more to do with the Byzantines losing their hold on Italy than a decree against images and monasticism. Sure, pissing off the Pope might make holding Italy more difficult, but it's not as if the Pope had an army to kick the Byzantines out. Either somebody else did, or they chose to leave, as I don't see this sort of thing provoking enough of a popular uprising to force a Byzantine retreat.
 
I know the Byzantines on occasion were fond of issuing decree calling for the burning pictures and paintings of saints and smashing idols and so forth from time to time.
 
I know the Byzantines on occasion were fond of issuing decree calling for the burning pictures and paintings of saints and smashing idols and so forth from time to time.
But would that really be enough for them to lose Italy? Rome, maybe, but the hole damn peninsular?
 
Wait what? Losing Italy had more to do with the Lombards and the fact it simply wasn't valuble enough to spend resources to keep when more pressing matters commaned the Emperor's attention.

Eventually Charlemange invaded the Lombard kingdom after they began attacking the Pope's lands.
 
Ag is more or less right, the Byzantines' decision to not do a damn thing about the Lombards was the key factor in the Papal decision, though the imperial decision to tighten up Iconoclasm certainly played a role in the Popes' thought processes.
 
False. Eastern Orthodox Christians do not (well, at least should not) deny the theological implications of the Filioque. The Second Council of Nicaea, accepted by the Greek Orthodox Church, has a final professional of faith which includes: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (AD 787).

I cannot find that formulation in the acts or canons of that council; I would be grateful for the reference. Even so, though, it's not that simple. What you say may be true if one assumes that "through the Son" means the same thing as "and the Son". But the Orthodox, at least, didn't think they meant the same thing.

The Filioque was merely an update to the Nicene Creed using this formulation.

If you mean that the Nicene Creed was "updated" to match the creed you say was promulgated at Nicaea II then that's not true; the Filioque was of Spanish origin and predated Nicaea II.

The dispute is about whether the Pope had the authority to add the Filioque to the Nicene Creed without ecumenical authority.

Of course, but there were still theological differences. It wasn't just about tampering with ancient creeds.

Given the East-West Schism was sparked by the Patriarch of Constantinople doing something far more significant than that (attempting to enforce using leavened bread for the Holy Eucharist in all dioceses), I would hope that this issue should be settled sometime soon.

No, the condemnation of 1054, not the schism itself, was sparked by that. It is only in retrospect that the events of that year, and the disputes leading up to them, have been interpreted as the moment of schism; most people of the time seem not to have regarded the Catholics and Orthodox as in schism from each other, as the letters of Theophylact of Ochrid attest. The real breach came in the wake of the Fourth Crusade, I think, and the previous century and a half were retrospectively reinterpreted in the light of the bitterness of that incident.

Seems like the right thread to ask this question:

I recently came across a brief mention of Emperor Constantine V Copronymus and Iconoclasm in my encyclopedia. According to the encyclopaedia entry Constantine V "rigidly enforced a decree forbidding the use of images in worship, and he opposed monasticism. A serious result of this policy was the loss of Rome and, ultimately, of Italy to the Byzantines. Pope Zacharias broke with Constantine, and Pope Stephen II placed Rome under the protection of Pepin the Short."

How accurate is this? I don't know that much about the period, but I do know this is around the time that the great expansion of Islam through conquest took place, which would certainly have troubled Byzantium. I would imagine this would have far more to do with the Byzantines losing their hold on Italy than a decree against images and monasticism. Sure, pissing off the Pope might make holding Italy more difficult, but it's not as if the Pope had an army to kick the Byzantines out. Either somebody else did, or they chose to leave, as I don't see this sort of thing provoking enough of a popular uprising to force a Byzantine retreat.

As the others have said, it is hard to see how iconoclastic policies of Constantine V could have led to the loss of Italy. I must add that Constantine didn't simply make a decree against images, he persecuted those who disobeyed the decree. Also, he didn't promulgate any decree against monasticism - rather, he bitterly persecuted the monasteries, because they were strongholds of iconophilism, and did his best to humiliate the monks (e.g. forcing the ecumenical patriarch to marry, eat meat, and listen to music, or forcing a whole load of monks to take part in a parade at the hippodrome where they had to hold hands with women - rather enlightened really, one might think...).
 
Wait what? Losing Italy had more to do with the Lombards and the fact it simply wasn't valuble enough to spend resources to keep when more pressing matters commaned the Emperor's attention.

Eventually Charlemange invaded the Lombard kingdom after they began attacking the Pope's lands.
That's about what I thought. Stupid encyclopedia, I knew it looked wrong.

Ag is more or less right, the Byzantines' decision to not do a damn thing about the Lombards was the key factor in the Papal decision, though the imperial decision to tighten up Iconoclasm certainly played a role in the Popes' thought processes.
What actually forced the Byzantines to completely abandon Italy? I can understand not taking on the Lombards, but did they pull out due to a new threat - such as the Muslims - or some other reason?

As the others have said, it is hard to see how iconoclastic policies of Constantine V could have led to the loss of Italy. I must add that Constantine didn't simply make a decree against images, he persecuted those who disobeyed the decree. Also, he didn't promulgate any decree against monasticism - rather, he bitterly persecuted the monasteries, because they were strongholds of iconophilism, and did his best to humiliate the monks (e.g. forcing the ecumenical patriarch to marry, eat meat, and listen to music, or forcing a whole load of monks to take part in a parade at the hippodrome where they had to hold hands with women - rather enlightened really, one might think...).
Thanks. That is rather enlightened, in an autocratic, intolerant sort of way. :)
 
What actually forced the Byzantines to completely abandon Italy? I can understand not taking on the Lombards, but did they pull out due to a new threat - such as the Muslims - or some other reason?
Konstantinos V had other things to think about, and Italy wasn't exactly defensible. Too much of an investment for too little gain in his view. As for those "other things"...actually, the problem was that the Muslims (and the Bulgars) weren't enough of a threat. The Umayyad caliphate was crumbling and the Abbasid rebels were winning victory after victory. Konstantinos elected to use that opportunity to conquer Melitene from the Muslims, demolish it, and resettle the Christians who were there in Thrace, as a further buffer against the Bulgars, his favorite whipping-boys. That same year, 751, Aistulf conquered Ravenna. Konstantinos hectored the Lombards with embassies demanding the return of his north Italian crap, but never cared enough to back it up with military force.
 
Konstantinos V had other things to think about, and Italy wasn't exactly defensible. Too much of an investment for too little gain in his view. As for those "other things"...actually, the problem was that the Muslims (and the Bulgars) weren't enough of a threat. The Umayyad caliphate was crumbling and the Abbasid rebels were winning victory after victory. Konstantinos elected to use that opportunity to conquer Melitene from the Muslims, demolish it, and resettle the Christians who were there in Thrace, as a further buffer against the Bulgars, his favorite whipping-boys. That same year, 751, Aistulf conquered Ravenna. Konstantinos hectored the Lombards with embassies demanding the return of his north Italian crap, but never cared enough to back it up with military force.
Sounds oddly familiar to my current CIV game, where I was attacking the US in the east until the Mongols started winning victories over the largish Roman Empire in the north. Since I didn't need any American territory and had simply been attempting to stunt their growth and keep them away from othe only Iron on the continent I didn't control, I abandoned the war with the US, even to the point of leaving several new cities undefended - though they stupidly didn't attack them - to eat Western Rome.

Sounds like this was actually a good move from Constantine V. He's pretty roundly vilified in my encyclopedia as a poor ruler, but that seems like wise defensive move. Of course, I don't know that much about the relative threats posed by the Muslims and Bulgars at the time.
 
Konstantinos V had his successes and his failures. Militarily, he got some easy victories from the crumbling Arab Caliphate, though the only territory he managed to take was the (admittedly strategically useful) city of Kamachon. He also beat up on the Bulgars a lot and expanded Byzantine control in Thrace somewhat, repopulating Adrianople and giving the capital more breathing space. He also had several major military failures against the Muslims and Bulgars both (though to be fair he did have unusually bad luck from the weather on a few of those failed expeditions) and as mentioned he lost Italy. It should also be noted that he started his reign with one of the largest civil wars in a century (and this was a century that became well known for its "Seven Revolutions"), a major crisis that he not only managed to surmount militarily, but after which he successfully instituted important military and political reforms to keep the whole thing from happening again. The fact that he succeeded his father was in and of itself an achievement in terms of stability - the previous seven rulers, as mentioned, had come to the throne as a result of violent revolution.

Politically, he'll always be remembered for the Iconoclasm thing, and whether you approve or disapprove of Iconoclasm theologically, you have to admit that Konstantinos radicalized both sides of the debate and made it harder for the Byzantines to put the whole issue behind them. There was no way a guy like Michael Lachanodrakon would have been able to get away with what he did to iconophiles before Konstantinos' reign, for instance. He also attempted to connect military success with the validity of his theological views, and his propaganda was effective enough that people forgot the failures and pointed to his victories as signs of God's support for Iconoclasm - perhaps a natural outgrowth of the debate, but again something that would have a baneful effect on the controversy for the next hundred years. Soldiers remembered him well because he increased their pay significantly, another inducement to forget the bad and remember the good and generally side with Iconoclast emperors, and something that again would cause political problems in the reigns of Eirene Sarantapechaina, Nikephoros I, and and especially Michael I Rhangabe.

Overall, I'd say that judged on his own reign and actions, he wasn't a terrible ruler and for all his faults managed to keep order and campaign more or less successfully. Judged on his influence in future years, the minor political and military advantages that his reign accrued to the Empire did little to balance out the gigantic wound of the Iconoclast controversy, one way or the other. He probably deserves more than a little of the bile your encyclopedia reserves for him and his policies, but he wasn't all bad.
 
wait.. who is konstantinos? if you mean Constantine, then please use the latter.
 
On the other hand we don't call Catherine the Great, Yekaterina the Great. Or Frederick the Great, Friedrich.

To put it simply, we are inconsistent. And in my opinion, since this is an English the official language of this forum it is helpful to use the standard English name, in this case being Constantine.
 
Ivan means John?

They both come from the Greek name Ioannes, which in turn comes from some Hebrew word that means "Yahweh is Gracious."

On the other hand we don't call Catherine the Great, Yekaterina the Great. Or Frederick the Great, Friedrich.

Its actually quite common to see Yekaterina Velikaya and Friedrich der Grosse, just not in laymans' parlance like the examples I used.

To put it simply, we are inconsistent. And in my opinion, since this is an English the official language of this forum it is helpful to use the standard English name, in this case being Constantine.

Meh, he knows who it is now anyway.
 
Back
Top Bottom