The Celts

[ElliotS]

I like Nuada v1, and most of the ideas in general.

For Ogma let's split the difference and say "+1% production empire-wide per owned great work."

It doesn't need help early, helps more later, works more universally, keeps flavor, and is more interactive.

 

[CrazyG]

On Nuada. I like the design of the 1 culture per 10 gold, however right now the cap is really restrictive (you max out at 1 culture per 2 followers, compare it to Dagda and it's pathetic). Removing it is the key, and I don't think that cap is used anymore by regular pantheons.

I'd probably go between ideas 1 and 2, make it 1 culture per 10 gold, but keep Dan's stronger city connection bonus (it needs some early muscle). I don't think it needs to produce golden age points.

Edit: you could also give it great merchant points. I think the 4UC celts have a special great merchant too for some added synergy

My point stands, however, the broadcast intent of Ogma appears to be tall with few cities. I am not taking anything away from Ogma, so you can play it just as well as you have before.

I'd probably take Epona if playing an OCC, but regardless of disagreeing about that, I like the great writer points more than library or great works buffs. Great people points are good for any strategy and it helps distinguish it from Dagda, but I'm not sure if you will have a great work slot available when he is born (turn 30 pantheon means turn 80 great writer, first writing slots are Great Library, Heroic Epic, or Ampitheater)

 

[pineappledan]

For Ogma let's split the difference and say "+1% production empire-wide per owned great work."

New Code

On Nuada. I like the design of the 1 culture per 10 gold, however right now the cap is really restrictive (you max out at 1 culture per 2 followers, compare it to Dagda and it's pathetic). Removing it is the key, and I don't think that cap is used anymore by regular pantheons.

Edit: you could also give it great merchant points. I think the 4UC celts have a special great merchant too for some added synergy

I'd probably go between ideas 1 and 2, make it 1 culture per 10 gold, but keep Dan's stronger city connection bonus (it needs some early muscle). I don't think it needs to produce golden age points.

I was trying to make it the most focused GAP pantheon...
The cap can be compensated for by making the rest of the pantheon stronger.

How about this?
Nuada, the Silver-Handed
+1 Culture and GAP for every 10 Gold per turn and for every 5 Science per turn. Each source is capped at half the number of Followers in the City
+3 Gold and GAP from City Connections. +15% Science during WLTKDs
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

The 4UC celts have a unique GPTI that scientists, merchants, and engineers can build in addition to their normal GPTI. GMerchant points could be added, but it would be the only capital bonus on the whole pantheon, so it would be clunky

I'm not sure if you will have a great work slot available when he is born (turn 30 pantheon means turn 80 great writer, first writing slots are Great Library, Heroic Epic, or Ampitheater)

Worst case scenario, GWriter sits in capital until you have the slot to fill... It's not elegant, but Maybe I can add a slot to an earlier building, like Library, just to open this up sooner?

 

[chicorbeef]

Haven't played very much with the Celts, so not a lot of first-hand experience. I'll say my opinions anyway.

Dagda and Rhiannon look very solid already, no changes needed.

Ogma is pretty strong too, maybe buff +1 Science for every 4 to +1 for every 3 so it doesn't lose in raw Science to Dagda.

Lugh used to be +3//, but not have food, I think if all yields were brought to +3 again (including ) it would be a solid pantheon.

I think Epona should give +10, not .

I think Lugh's +25% during Golden Ages should be moved to Bran.

I can't comment on Morrigan's yields because I don't actually know, I think the ratio of the yields recieved to combat strength of the unit killed should be the same as God of War's though.

Nuada I think could use a bit of rework, it looks all over the place, I think it could be reworked to be a trade and city-connection focused pantheon, not sure how though.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Worst case scenario, GWriter sits in capital until you have the slot to fill... It's not elegant, but Maybe I can add a slot to an earlier building, like Library, just to open this up sooner?

Or replace GW points with GA points; palace has a great work of art slot.

 

[pineappledan]

Goddess of beauty already does that though

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Goddess of beauty already does that though

It does that for a reason though, it's the earliest greatwork slot available .... Also the Celts cannot choose Goddess of beauty.

 

[CrazyG]

Worst case scenario, GWriter sits in capital until you have the slot to fill... It's not elegant, but Maybe I can add a slot to an earlier building, like Library, just to open this up sooner?

I think there needs to be a great work slot, and if we can't add it then the great writer points shouldn't be added. We need to consider AI too, will it bulb the great writer? Doing so would be a big loss. New players too.

How about this?
Nuada, the Silver-Handed
+1 Culture and GAP for every 10 Gold per turn and for every 5 Science per turn. Each source is capped at half the number of Followers in the City
+3 Gold and GAP from City Connections. +15% Science during WLTKDs
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

I really think the first necessary change is ditching the cap. It becomes the far more important restriction so effectively it becomes more a reward for growth than for generating gold or science (especially that science goal, I checked 4 savegames in the renaissance and all of my cities meet that target 100% of the time). I believe the cap exists to try and balance old versions god of wisdom and commerce, but they got totally redesigned anyways.

 

[pineappledan]

Well, here are the levers that are available as pantheons that we haven’t added somewhere else:

• Yields on construction
• Yields for WLTKD
• Yields for every pantheon in game
• Yields on luxuries controlled
• Yields per active trade route
• Gold/science converters
• Yields on city conquest
• Specific faith purchases (work boats or workers, for instance)

fixing the caps on the gold/science converters is beyond my power, and probably better kept for a discussion of syncretism/mendicancy.

 

[pineappledan]

I really think the first necessary change is ditching the cap. It becomes the far more important restriction so effectively it becomes more a reward for growth than for generating gold or science

Hypothetically, if you hit this cap, then it is a 1/2 converter, which is very efficient. So is the cap really the problem, or is it just that we haven't made the converter strong enough in comparison to other ones?

If you had a this converter set to 10 to 1, the same as Dagda, then if you always hit the cap, it would be 50% stronger than Dagda. I think the cap was put there in the first place, because these beliefs could get completely out of hand otherwise.

So I think the converters are okay, they just need 2+ yield rewards

 

[CrazyG]

Hypothetically, if you hit this cap, then it is a 1/2 converter, which is very efficient. So is the cap really the problem, or is it just that we haven't made the converter strong enough in comparison to other ones?

I just don't like how 1 per 5 with a cap of half followers works. In practice you almost never earn roughly 1per 5. In the early game the rounding hurts so much (example from a real savegame I had: 23 but only 2). It always rounds down and it's per city, so 5 cities with 4 each earn 0.

By late medieval you'll probably be at the cap (I checked some save games to estimate this).

So there's only a short window (part of classical and part of medieval) where the belief does what it is advertised, and I just don't like that. If we want a belief that gives 1 per 2 followers, I think we should just do that directly and skip the complex middle equation.

I really think that 1per5 is the wrong way to go (also the theme is gold, right?).

1 <set of yields> per 10 works much better. You won't be at the cap consistently unless you really invest in gold. I'd say it should have golden age points or a WLTKD bonus, not both to focus it more.

It ends up similar to Dagda though, anything with a cap of 1 per 2 followers will be similar to getting yields for 1 per 3 followers.

Also we should maybe nerf Dagda, because while brainstorming ideas for Nuada, I kept finding things that look OP but are still worse than Dagda.
Maybe something like this?

Spoiler Dagda :

Dagda, the All-Father
+1 Culture, Gold, Production, and Science in the capital, and for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
+2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.

Basically is scales per 4 instead of per 3 but to compensate you start with one set of the yields. It's stronger until you have 12 followers but weaker after that.

 

[pineappledan]

1 <set of yields> per 10 works much better. You won't be at the cap consistently unless you really invest in gold. I'd say it should have golden age points or a WLTKD bonus, not both to focus it more.

If gold is more acceptable, then maybe something like this?

Spoiler Nuada 3.0 :

Nuada, the Silver-Handed
+15% Gold and Science from WLTKDs
+3 Gold, Science, and Golden Age Points for every Unique Luxury Resource on Empire
+2Gold, Science, and Golden Age Points per active active Trade Route to or from the City
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

The unique luxury and WLTKD focus work together, to my mind.
Nuada would be a slow starter, since TRs and WLTKDs are slow in the early game, but he could trade for lots of unique luxuries to stay strong on tech, and he has some very strong late game potential as TRs and WLTKDs become more frequent.

Also we should maybe nerf Dagda, because while brainstorming ideas for Nuada, I kept finding things that look OP but are still worse than Dagda.
Maybe something like this?

Looks good, I like it. Yeah, Dagda is ptobably too strong as is. a consistent yields on the capital would also smooth out the pantheon/religion speed bump.

 

[InkAxis]

Are we also going to give every pantheon +3 faith and remove it from the UA?

 

[pineappledan]

The faith remained on found in my test, so i dont think anything needs to be done to change that.

However, I don't really get why the pantheons dont just give the faith, rather than the current trait column. It seems like 2 pieces of code that do the same thing.

edit: I’m going to go test this again, if it’s doing the dagda/god king thing and the UA is zeroing off the Celt 3f per city in your secondary cities when you found a religion, and only get it back when you reconvert, then I think it would be perfectly reasonable to move the 3f to just be directly on the pantheon. Having to reboot your UA by converting all your cities to your religion isn’t great.

 

[DeAnno]

In addition to being a small nerf overall, the +3f pantheon thing as it is right now kind of encourages being at war when you found so you can score a kill or three with Picts and speed it up. I'm not sure if I like it overall or not, but it's encouraged me to make some suspect decisions a few times.

 

[CrazyG]

However, I don't really get why the pantheons dont just give the faith, rather than the current trait column. It seems like 2 pieces of code that do the same thing.

There is an obscure scenario where the celts don't get a religion or get converted to another, I believe the UA would still get the faith but if it was moved to pantheons she wouldn't.

(this is a really rare event and you can change it to pantheons regardless)

I'd add 3 great merchant points to your Nuada idea just because it seems a bit on the weak side to me.

 

[pineappledan]

There is an obscure scenario where the celts don't get a religion or get converted to another, I believe the UA would still get the faith but if it was moved to pantheons she wouldn't.

(this is a really rare event and you can change it to pantheons regardless)

How could that be?

The current UA says
“Has a unique set of Pantheon Beliefs that no one else can benefit from. Owned Cities with your Religion neither generate nor receive foreign Religious Pressure. +3 Faith in owned Cities where your Religion is the majority."

 

[CrazyG]

The current UA says
“Has a unique set of Pantheon Beliefs that no one else can benefit from. Owned Cities with your Religion neither generate nor receive foreign Religious Pressure. +3 Faith in owned Cities where your Religion is the majority."

I'm under the impression that "your religion" means whatever religion is the majority, but I could be wrong.

 

[pineappledan]

Okay, since the discussion has died down I will start putting this into a commit on github:

Spoiler 3rd Attempt :

Bran, the Sleeping Guardian
+25% increase to Ranged Combat Strength and +25% Growth in all Cities. +15Culture and Gold when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Happiness to Following City
+5 Food from Ceilidh Hall.

Cernunnos, the Horned Stag
+1 Food and Gold from Forests, +1Production and Science from Jungles. +1Faith from unimproved forest and jungles. +1 from camps and +2 from Plantations.
+2 Culture from Ceilidh Hall.

Dagda, the All-Father
Dagda, the All-Father
+1 Culture, Gold, Production, and Science in your Capital, and for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
+2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.

Epona, the Great Mare
+3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
+5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.

Lugh, the Skilled One
+2 Culture, Science, Food, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +10% Wonder Production
+3 Production from Ceilidh Hall.

Mannanan, Son of the Sea
+3 Food, +3 Production, and +3 Gold in coastal Cities. 1Production and 1Gold for every 2Citizens working Sea tiles in your Cities.
+2 Great Admiral Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Morrigan, the Harbinger
Earn Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points if you kill a unit. +5 HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory.
+2 Great General Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed
+15% Gold and Science from WLTKDs
+3 Gold, Science, and Golden Age Points for active active Trade Route to or from the City, and every Unique Luxury Resource on Empire.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

Ogma, the Learned
+1 Science for every 4 Citizens in a city. +3 Science, Culture, Great Scientist Points, and Great Artist Points in the Capital. +1Production from Great Works
+5 Science from Ceilidh Hall.

Rhiannon the Sovereign
+2 Culture in every City. +1 Gold and Production from every improved resource.
+5 Golden Age Points from Ceilidh Hall.

I'm a little worried about Nuada pouring over in the text box. there's a lot of text there...
I pushed it up to 333 on both, the unique luxuries and the TRs, to make it stronger and to reduce the text bloat.

I don't want to add +3 GMerchant points to it, because it begins to look too similar to God of Commerce if I do that (2 per active trade route to and from the city and from city connections. 2 GMerchant points in the Capital, and 22 after you found your second city).

 

[CrazyG]

This list is a big improvement over the current version, but I don't think you should add the great writer points to Ogmaunless the great work slot can be added somehow.

I'm a little worried about Nuada pouring over in the text box. there's a lot of text there...
I pushed it up to 333 on both, the unique luxuries and the TRs, to make it stronger and to reduce the text bloat.

+15% Gold and Science from WLTKDs
+3 Gold, Science, and Golden Age Points for active active Trade Route to or from the City, and every Unique Luxury Resource on Empire.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

You have active written twice if you want to reduce the length. It's probably possible to reword the part about trade routes to be shorter, though I'm not sure how exactly how it works.

On the "to or from", does that mean an internal route counts twice?