The Celts

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

I have tried the celts for a couple of games, and am thouroughly underwhelmed by their pantheons.
The big problem is that there is not a single one that can really provide a lot of fpt early. You can get fpt with most pantheons you chose, thats true. But it`s hard to get past 4 or 5. Compare this to a regular pantheon, like earth mother or oral tradition, where 8 fpt is quite possible on a good start.
I know that I am comparing a super start here to an average celt start, but that`s the point: There just is no super start possible for the celts.
Even if your surrounded by forest and pick the faith from forest pantheon, you still don`t really want to work forest tiles. And if you are lucky and have 4 camps nearby, that´s still just 4 fpt.

So celts are often inferior in an area that should be their strong point.
You also can`t just ignore faith and rely on the other yiels that the celtic pantheons provide, because if you don`t get a religion, you will lose your patheon sooner rather than later.

So by picking celts you are quite locked into playing a religiuos game, but at the same time very badly equipped to do so.

 

[Funak]

So by picking celts you are quite locked into playing a religiuos game, but at the same time very badly equipped to do so.

You can go barbhunting with your unique unit .
Honestly I have a really hard time calling the Celtic pantheons weak or underperforming, but they usually force you to change your playstyle to maximize potential faith. I think such a solution is fine, and it adds something unique about the UA(which honestly is pretty monstrous, I mean it has like 4 effects)

 

[Gazebo]

Added '+5 faith in capital if pantheon is present' to UA. Should help secure a religion a little more easily. If we don't like, we can revert.

G

 

[Funak]

Added '+5 faith in capital if pantheon is present' to UA. Should help secure a religion a little more easily. If we don't like, we can revert.

G

You don't think that's unfair to all the other faith-based civs that aren't guaranteed a religion either? Spain, India and so on? I mean the Celtic UA is already imho a lot stronger and more interesting than both their UAs combined.

 

[Gazebo]

You don't think that's unfair to all the other faith-based civs that aren't guaranteed a religion either? Spain, India and so on? I mean the Celtic UA is already imho a lot stronger and more interesting than both their UAs combined.

No, because the Celts can outright lose their UA if they lose their Pantheon. Other civs still get UA bonuses from any religion, even if they didn't found it.

G

 

[Funak]

No, because the Celts can outright lose their UA if they lose their Pantheon. Other civs still get UA bonuses from any religion, even if they didn't found it.

The Celts do still have their faith/culture from great works as well as conversion-resistance even if they don't found a religion.
That is about as, if not more interesting than the Indian/Spanish one if they don't found a religion. I mean the spanish UA stops people from actually giving her a religion, which is a pretty weird side-effect actually

 

[Gazebo]

The Celts do still have their faith/culture from great works as well as conversion-resistance even if they don't found a religion.
That is about as, if not more interesting than the Indian/Spanish one if they don't found a religion. I mean the spanish UA stops people from actually giving her a religion, which is a pretty weird side-effect actually

Only if Spain has a majority religion.

 

[Funak]

Only if Spain has a majority religion.

Unless it changed since first October, no, I was unable to use missionaries in Spanish cities when all religions were founded and she only had her pantheon in all cities.

 

[Funak]

I changed my mind about the Celtic conversion-resistance, it is a cancer upon the game and needs to die. Seriously, not being able to passively spread your religion or automate your missionaries is just horrible.

 

[Gazebo]

I changed my mind about the Celtic conversion-resistance, it is a cancer upon the game and needs to die. Seriously, not being able to passively spread your religion or automate your missionaries is just horrible.

It's a choice, whether or not the player wants to spread their religion should be more granular for the Celts. Not changing this.

G

 

[Funak]

It's a choice, whether or not the player wants to spread their religion should be more granular for the Celts. Not changing this.

Okay. But, the AI is going to spread it no matter what, so why would you intentionally make a change that only affects players? Also, even if the natural spread doesn't work(even thought I still don't see a reason for this) why wouldn't the missionaries be able to automate?

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

You don't think that's unfair to all the other faith-based civs that aren't guaranteed a religion either? Spain, India and so on? I mean the Celtic UA is already imho a lot stronger and more interesting than both their UAs combined.

My point is, that while the other faith base civs aren`t guaranteed a religion, the actually have a much easier time getting one with their vanilla pantheons than the celts with their seemingly stronger ones. And, as Gazebo pointed out, for Celts not getting a religion is especially devastating, since it effectively removes their UA at all.
BTW, I tried barb hunting with pictish warriors (I love getting stuff for kills). However, you get 3-5 faith per kill, that`s not gonna get you there, either.

Anyway, thanks for the update Gazebo, very much appreceated.

 

[Gazebo]

Okay. But, the AI is going to spread it no matter what, so why would you intentionally make a change that only affects players? Also, even if the natural spread doesn't work(even thought I still don't see a reason for this) why wouldn't the missionaries be able to automate?

Assumptions are dangerous. Celt AI knows not to spread.

G

 

[Funak]

My point is, that while the other faith base civs aren`t guaranteed a religion, the actually have a much easier time getting one with their vanilla pantheons than the celts with their seemingly stronger ones. And, as Gazebo pointed out, for Celts not getting a religion is especially devastating, since it effectively removes their UA at all.

Since we discussed it here I actually tried it out ingame and I managed to get a religion five times out of five tries with (imho) one of the weakest celt-pantheons (the one with a double God-King effect). Sure I might not have gotten the first religion, but I got one consistently.

BTW, I tried barb hunting with pictish warriors (I love getting stuff for kills). However, you get 3-5 faith per kill, that`s not gonna get you there, either.

It is pretty low, sure but it is something.

Assumptions are dangerous. Celt AI knows not to spread.

It is not an assumption, it is an observation.

 

[Strigvir]

I agree current "isolated religion" part of UA is a cancer. Even I don't know what constitutes to the "proper" civilization worthy of my religion, so AI is even more clueless about this.

 

[Gazebo]

I agree current "isolated religion" part of UA is a cancer. Even I don't know what constitutes to the "proper" civilization worthy of my religion, so AI is even more clueless about this.

Celt AI does not spread its religion to anyone with missionaries. It is told not to, specifically because the costs outweigh the benefits.
G

 

[Strigvir]

Do friendly relations with neighbor civs and a possible host position in WC with 0 CS allies count as "costs outweigh the benefits"? If anything, you've just shot AI in the foot with that change.

 

[Gazebo]

Do friendly relations with neighbor civs and a possible host position in WC with 0 CS allies count as "costs outweigh the benefits"? If anything, you've just shot AI in the foot with that change.

Celt AI seems to do just fine. The Celt AI is culture or war victory focused, anyways.

G

 

[Strigvir]

The Celt AI is culture or war victory focused, anyways.

But religion is not.

 

[Gazebo]

But religion is not.

The Celts thrive on their Pantheon being strong and scaling well into the later parts of the game. Religion is, for the Celts, a vehicle to allow them to keep their Pantheon to themselves. They're not a 'spread religion around the world' civ like Spain or India.

G